Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Dr John Carlson]

Longtime lurker on HOH... enjoyed following the discussions from the last two list projects, particularly the European one. Definitely interested in participating this time.

 

[steve141]

I'll admit I'm ignorant about one player who will likely be in the top 30 or 40 - Frank Nighbor. When we did the first version of this project a decade ago, he was ranked 95th all-time. In the top centres project from 2013-14, he was ranked 8th, just behind Messier Clarke, but ahead of Esposito and Sakic.

I can go digging if need be, but does anyone happen to have a good summary of Nighbor (perhaps highlighting what new information was uncovered about him between 2008 and 2014 that caused his ranking to skyrocket)?

We have uncovered a lot of info on Nighbor from old newspapers that wasn't available ten years ago. The short version:

* On average, Nighbor was probably the best player in the world from about 1915-1925. (Similarily to how Crosby can be seen as the best post-lockout player, even though he hasn't been the best player every single year).
* He was the best player on the NHL's first dynasty, the Ottawa Senators.
* As for playing style he seems to have been one of the best defensive forwards ever, while still being one of the best offensive forwards of his time. His playing style was clean, and cerebral. I like to think of him as the center version of Lidstrom.

 

[Daximus]

Longtime lurker on HOH... enjoyed following the discussions from the last two list projects, particularly the European one. Definitely interested in participating this time.

Me as well. Been lurking here for a long time. Made up a list last year and keep flip flopping on a lot of guys. Would definitely like to participate. I have only watched from early 90's era and onward so I don't have the most watching experience that some posters may have. But I have seen some archived games to try and draw some opinions on players that I only have stats for.

 

[seventieslord]

Considering many active players (Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Keith, Chara, Kane, Thornton, etc) that are likely to jump into the top 100 that weren't there 10 years ago. I'd say Francis falls out of the top 100.

Looks like Frank Nighbor will jump up a long way from the 2008 and 2009 lists as he should!

Francis should definitely fall out. His ranking on the centers list demonstrates that his stock fell greatly between 2008 and 2014, and it hasn't suddenly risen since.

 

[ted2019]

Considering many active players (Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Keith, Chara, Kane, Thornton, etc) that are likely to jump into the top 100 that weren't there 10 years ago. I'd say Francis falls out of the top 100.

Looks like Frank Nighbor will jump up a long way from the 2008 and 2009 lists as he should!

The Keith/Chara dynamic could be interesting. Chara has double the post season 1st/2nd team AS then Keith does. Keith has 2 Norris' to Chara's 1, but Chara has 2 2nd place and 3 3rd place finishes. Keith never placed as a finalist unless he won the Norris. I see on the surface that Chara is much more deserving then Keith.

 

[Canadiens1958]

A few things:

1. It should be said again, those lists are typically bad.
2. Awards that are available to all positions (Calder, Hart, Smythe) typically under-represent defensemen, usually drastically. Any list that attempts to use results from the voting for these awards in their composition (and I'm sure most do) will inherently underrate defensemen.
3. Even if those awards did not have an anti-defenseman bias, there exists one in the general public. No one seems to acknowledge anymore that an elite defenseman can be as valuable as an elite forward. How many Hart votes went to a defenseman this year? An average list maker will place a forward ahead of a defender even if their Hart and Smythe records are the same.
4. Much of the superficial case for Messier over Bourque is based on his Hart trophies, which, (if we ignore positional bias in Hart voting), does tell us that he was better than him in their respective best three seasons, but that's only a small portion of their very long careers. An awards counting mindset will put Messier over Bourque, but in their respective fifth best seasons, one was the best at his position and one 3rd at his. In their respective tenth best seasons, one was a first team Allstar, the other was a run of the mill star player by comparison. In their respective fifteenth best seasons, one was a Norris finalist, one was a first line talent with intangibles. In their 20th best seasons, one nearly made yet another Allstar team, the other nearly scored 55 points.
5. Defensemen and centers, it seems, should show up on a list with approximately equal frequencies. If anything, there should be more defensemen than centers since a lineup has 50% more of them than it does centers (though I realize there are other ways to consider this). The 3rd-4th best defenseman of all-time should not be behind the 6th best center

Defencemen are more critical on the road than at home since they tend to be immune to match-ups.

 

[Canadiens1958]

The Keith/Chara dynamic could be interesting. Chara has double the post season 1st/2nd team AS then Keith does. Keith has 2 Norris' to Chara's 1, but Chara has 2 2nd place and 3 3rd place finishes. Keith never placed as a finalist unless he won the Norris. I see on the surface that Chara is much more deserving then Keith.

Chara is a much better player on the road than Keith.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Chara is pretty much a lock for top 100 for me.....as of now. His effect on the game defensively was massive during his peak. Very strong at ES, arguably the best top PK dman in the league when you look at overpasses's special teams roles breakdown and the workload he was handling. "Only" 1 Norris but he was a finalist 5 other times and top 10, 10 times. 7 time postseason AS. Was absolutely dominant in Boston's Cup winning run. As a Pens fan I vividly remember 2013 when Crosby didn't score a point in 4 games and the Bruins swept Pittsburgh.

 

[bobholly39]

Francis should definitely fall out. His ranking on the centers list demonstrates that his stock fell greatly between 2008 and 2014, and it hasn't suddenly risen since.

Speaking of Francis that should be a good benchmark for McDavid. He was ranked 94th last time. Does anyone think McDavid should be ranked above Francis? He's obviously "better" - but Francis had over 1700 points and was a star performer for close to 20 years.

Yeah I don't think there'll be any room for Connor McDavid.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

I am looking forward to seeing how this plays out. I would love to make a list, just have to find time (especially with school starting up so soon).

 

[quoipourquoi]

Even if those awards did not have an anti-defenseman bias, there exists one in the general public. No one seems to acknowledge anymore that an elite defenseman can be as valuable as an elite forward. How many Hart votes went to a defenseman this year? An average list maker will place a forward ahead of a defender even if their Hart and Smythe records are the same.

How many should have? Was Kucherov, like Hedman, not also better than Hedman’s competition for All-Star voting and Norris selection? Was Kopitar, like Doughty, not also better than Doughty’s competition? With respect to PK Subban, it’s not always an even awards race, and that’s how Kopitar can be a Hart nominee with 63 top-3 Hart votes but not an All-Star while Doughty can be a 1st Team All-Star and receive a single 4th-place Hart vote.

Something like 165 ballots and not one person thought a defenseman should be top-3. What kind of conspiracy is this? Is it not just as possible that there wasn’t a defenseman among the top-3 players this year?

An awards counting mindset will put Messier over Bourque, but in their respective fifth best seasons, one was the best at his position and one 3rd at his.

To put facts behind this, is Mark Messier’s 5th best year one in which he was deemed to be worse than Mario Lemieux and Eric Lindros in 1996, Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux in 1987, or Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux in 1988?

I’m just trying to track who his competition was and whether or not Ray Bourque was better than that competition and not just better than Mark Howe or a Washington Capitals version of Scott Stevens.

In their respective tenth best seasons, one was a first team Allstar, the other was a run of the mill star player by comparison.

This might be easier to guess... something like 1982/1984 Bourque vs. 1994/1997 Messier? Are we looking at Wilson and Langway? Probably not the same as the Center competition.

In their respective fifteenth best seasons, one was a Norris finalist, one was a first line talent with intangibles.

By now, we must be dipping down to 2001 Bourque vs. 1982 Messier - where Bourque’s a 1st Team All-Star because Pronger and MacInnis and Blake are hurt while Messier is a 1st Team All-Star because he and Tonelli play different positions than Gretzky and Trottier.

But really, is 1981-82 not Mark Messier’s 15th best year? Or at least in the direct area of it? Or are we calling it differently just because of All-Star selections? Ranked 14th of his seasons in raw points-per-game but I’d hesitate to put 1993-94 below it because of the playoff.

In their 20th best seasons, one nearly made yet another Allstar team, the other nearly scored 55 points.

1985? 54 points in 55 games - obviously a down year - and then followed by a 25-point playoff and some dominant face-off numbers in the Finals? Or 2000, when he scored 54 points in 66 games while his team went 27-21-18 with him and 3-8-5 without? Team MVP.

I mean, the best of 1998-2000 Bourque was probably better in their 20th best years if only because of health (I’m guessing 2000 because he clicked with the Avalanche), but that’s pretty far down the line to the point I don’t know why we would care all that much.

5. Defensemen and centers, it seems, should show up on a list with approximately equal frequencies. If anything, there should be more defensemen than centers since a lineup has 50% more of them than it does centers (though I realize there are other ways to consider this). The 3rd-4th best defenseman of all-time should not be behind the 6th best center

This is the kind of separate-lane thinking that I disagree with.

If Bourque/Shore were considered less than Messier/Morenz while they played, the existence of greater historical Centers should not shift them down. The subsequent arrival of Crosby and McDavid and the lack of all-time talents on defense and in net in the last 12 years shouldn’t make anyone erase Mikita’s name and shift him down underneath Arbitrary Defenseman #5-6 and Arbitrary Goaltender #3-4.

 

[Theokritos]

But I have seen some archived games to try and draw some opinions on players that I only have stats for.

Some time ago we have started something of a concentrated effort to watch & discuss historic games here:

1960/4/7: Montreal Canadiens vs Toronto Maple Leafs 2-1
1963/4/18: Toronto Maple Leafs vs Detroit Red Wings 3-1
1963/12/7: Toronto Maple Leafs vs Chicago Black Hawks 3-0
1965/4/1: Montreal Canadiens vs Toronto Maple Leafs 3-2

I plan to revive this effort in the upcoming week.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Star Power

Paradox: I usually rank Bourque > Shore.If you ask me to rank one of them over Messier or Crosby, I'd be more comfortable doing it with Shore.Hence Shore > Bourque.

Not sure if something similar happened to anyone else.This was just one example.

 

[sr edler]

He made it 59th in the Top-60 Wingers list, and there's no way I'll have any room for the 29th* winger. Let alone the 59th.

*That has nothing to do with the fact that said 29th winger really shouldn't have ended up as high as he did.

Bure is on my list.


I’m kidding, I don’t have a list. Yet.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Bure is on my list.


I’m kidding, I don’t have a list. Yet.

Put Graves one spot higher.


Bure is on my rough draft. But every time I write him down, I make a note that says (Kariya?). To follow up on BenchBrawl, once I get down to 90-120, I can see me getting all about star power. My 30-40 range is like that too, a catch-all for players who would be top-20 if not for Reason X. It is in this land where Ken Dryden is King.

 

[K Fleur]

I'll definitely be following the discussions in this project. I feel confident in how I'd rank the top 20 players all time, it's just the 80-100 that come after that I'm not so sure where to put .

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, you're not alone in that...the lower you get down any list, the more fluidity it has, naturally. Players get closer and closer together as you head towards the meat of the bell curve.

By way of expanded example: One could say there are 372 regular forwards in the NHL. What's the actual difference between the 358th best and the 390th best? Probably just their jersey number.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Speaking of Francis that should be a good benchmark for McDavid. He was ranked 94th last time. Does anyone think McDavid should be ranked above Francis? He's obviously "better" - but Francis had over 1700 points and was a star performer for close to 20 years.

Yeah I don't think there'll be any room for Connor McDavid.

In my view, yes.

Better player, high ranking.

Top 100 hockey players, not top 100 careers.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Star Power

Paradox: I usually rank Bourque > Shore.If you ask me to rank one of them over Messier or Crosby, I'd be more comfortable doing it with Shore.Hence Shore > Bourque.

Not sure if something similar happened to anyone else.This was just one example.

Difference between within a team and within a league comparables.

 

[bobholly39]

In my view, yes.

Better player, high ranking.

Top 100 hockey players, not top 100 careers.

I mean are you talking just peak? All-time ranking isn't the same as ranking just peaks. It is about careers. Peak can be of particular importance to you if you want - but in the end it is about the whole career.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm not putting Connor McDavid and his 200 career games on my list.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I mean are you talking just peak? All-time ranking isn't the same as ranking just peaks. It is about careers. Peak can be of particular importance to you if you want - but in the end it is about the whole career.

Says who?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I'm not putting Connor McDavid and his 200 career games on my list.

Three players have won the Hart trophy at 20 years old or younger: Gretzky, Crosby, McDavid.

Two players have won two Art Ross trophies at 21 years old: Gretzky and McDavid.

How can McDavid not be one of the top 100 players ever?

 

[BenchBrawl]

I wish I never started this McDavid discussion.That's on me.

 

[Michael Farkas]

McDavid will have his time. Two seasons isn't a career. If it ends tomorrow, he doesn't make my list. Since I can't assume that he ever plays again, he doesn't make the cut. Easily doesn't make it.