Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo (MOD WARNINGS: Post #12/#900)

[Kakko Schmakko]

Pionk may have been a little lucky and ADA a little or a lot unlucky, but seeing them play showed that Pionk was a clearly superior player.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

My mistake on Kampfer. Steve's not really in the running for the 2RD anyway--he's more likely a 7D or in Hartford or picked up by another team. Both Pionk and DeAngelo are a whole lot better at carrying and moving the puck than Smith who is best when he's keeping things as simple as possible. I really don't think Brendan's the guy you want taking on that role and especially if the 2LD turns out to be Marc Staal.

I actually think Smith has very good puck carrying ability, hopefully we see more of it under a new coach.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

@eco's bones Kampfer is a righty. And I’m convinced that Smith is better on the right anyway. Can he be a 2RD if he gets back to form? Maybe. Honestly I’d rather have a kid there no matter what.

I wonder how differentiated the ES defensive minutes are going to be to begin with though. 2nd pairing vs 3rd pairing might not mean all that much next year.

I am so sick of this nonsense that a Right shooting Dman should play the right side. If a guy has the speed and puck control to skate the puck out of the zone he doesn't need to do forehand breakout passes and if he does he can do a little spinerama.

 

[eco's bones]

I am so sick of this nonsense that a Right shooting Dman should play the right side. If a guy has the speed and puck control to skate the puck out of the zone he doesn't need to do forehand breakout passes and if he does he can do a little spinerama.

I have played D and being a righty playing the right side is a lot easier. You don't have to use your back hand nearly as much and the play is just more naturally in front of you--you're not turning your back on your opponents all the time to play the puck coming around the boards for instance. At a much higher level things happen so much faster and turning away from an oncoming forechecker can kind of put you in no man's land.

 

[Ola]

I am so sick of this nonsense that a Right shooting Dman should play the right side. If a guy has the speed and puck control to skate the puck out of the zone he doesn't need to do forehand breakout passes and if he does he can do a little spinerama.

31 coaches in the NHL disagrees with you...

It’s a handicap, and the faster the game is getting the harder it gets. I don’t think there is a single D in the entire NHL other than Hjalmarsson who has played on the wrong side and done OK for more than a few years in a row. There is always someone bringing up some example, then 2-3 years later that player have to be moved to the right side because it was too tough in the long run.

When I played many coaches preferred players on the wrong side, could make D to D passes and one time it. But the game is just too fast now, when the puck is coming at you along the boards or if you are fetching it in the corner it’s such a disadvantage to have to turn your back to the ice and play the puck with your backhand.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

I have played D and being a righty playing the right side is a lot easier. You don't have to use your back hand nearly as much and the play is just more naturally in front of you--you're not turning your back on your opponents all the time to play the puck coming around the boards for instance. At a much higher level things happen so much faster and turning away from an oncoming forechecker can kind of put you in no man's land.

what is easier for one person, can be harder for another...

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

31 coaches in the NHL disagrees with you...

It’s a handicap, and the faster the game is getting the harder it gets. I don’t think there is a single D in the entire NHL other than Hjalmarsson who has played on the wrong side and done OK for more than a few years in a row. There is always someone bringing up some example, then 2-3 years later that player have to be moved to the right side because it was too tough in the long run.

When I played many coaches preferred players on the wrong side, could make D to D passes and one time it. But the game is just too fast now, when the puck is coming at you along the boards or if you are fetching it in the corner it’s such a disadvantage to have to turn your back to the ice and play the puck with your backhand.

Not so sure about the 31 coaches.

If you are good and successful on your side you should play there no matter how you shoot. There are pros and cons to both. And the pro is not only a better one timer.

 

[Tawnos]

Not so sure about the 31 coaches.

If you are good and successful on your side you should play there no matter how you shoot. There are pros and cons to both. And the pro is not only a better one timer.

While true, the vast majority of lefties come up as LD and the vast majority of righties come up as RD. It’s not so much that a lefty can’t play RD as someone who has spent their life at LD can’t just suddenly play RD effectively.

 

[eco's bones]

what is easier for one person, can be harder for another...

Okay---look at it this way. I'm not a big baseball guy but when a left handed pitcher is pitching to a left handed batter--he has more of an advantage than when he's pitching to a right handed batter. That's pretty much just an acknowledged fact. There's a reason for that and it's not all that unlike a defenseman playing on his wrong side being at a disadvantage. The reason basically is reaction time.

Apparently you haven't played defense before but anyway turning your back to someone who could run you through the wall is kind of a big deal and if someone is going to hit me I would 100% prefer seeing it as it happened to not seeing it or having a clue how it was going to happen. At least you can defend yourself or do what you can to avoid it if you can see it. As far as the other part about being on your backhand a lot more---that's kind of important too. Practically every hockey player in the world passes better--harder and more accurate on their forehand than on their backhand.

 

[kovazub94]

The both of them are the same age and the same size. The 2RD job is wide open for either one of them and there's a new coaching staff. Keeping in mind that 2RD is going to need to play not only a puck moving offensive game but a rounded game as well. The 2RD is going to have to have to kill penalties especially if the 1RD--Shattenkirk doesn't. That's how either Pionk or DeAngelo claim the job by showing not only the skills required to move the puck but also the versatility to play in different and lesser appreciated situations--if neither of them can do at least an adequate job of the rounded game--I suspect the Rangers will move before the season is over to get an RD who can. That might just be what the Rangers target when they move Zuccarello and/or Hayes if at least one of them doesn't do well enough.

Right, but again the differentiation between 2 and 3 LD might not matter. If Marc Staal is getting 13 or 14 ES minutes per night and Smith is getting the same but on a different pairing, then which one is really your 2 or 3 pairing?

I’m with @Tawnos here. There’s a room for both as either 2RD or 3RD and it really doesn’t matter at even strength where we can expect they get about the same amount of icetime. However both need to show improvement on the defensive end to the acceptable levels depending on how much offense each is able to produce. From the special teams perspective I don’t think there’s an issue if Smith can come back and be the main PK RDs with Pionk. On PP Shattenkirk will be the first out but both ADA and Pionk should get 2nd unit opportunities at different points during the season.

The point is if both show sufficient improvements (even if to a different degree) there no need to move one. On the other hand we haven’t heard Trouba’s name in awhile and I continue to see Hayes, one of ADA/Pionk and a 2nd rounder (or a late first if obtained via trade) as a good deal for us and better than anything Jets could get elsewhere.

 

[eco's bones]

I’m with @Tawnos here. There’s a room for both as either 2RD or 3RD and it really doesn’t matter at even strength where we can expect they get about the same amount of icetime. However both need to show improvement on the defensive end to the acceptable levels depending on how much offense each is able to produce. From the special teams perspective I don’t think there’s an issue if Smith can come back and be the main PK RDs with Pionk. On PP Shattenkirk will be the first out but both ADA and Pionk should get 2nd unit opportunities at different points during the season.

The point is if both show sufficient improvements (even if to a different degree) there no need to move one. On the other hand we haven’t heard Trouba’s name in awhile and I continue to see Hayes, one of ADA/Pionk and a 2nd rounder (or a late first if obtained via trade) as a good deal for us and better than anything Jets could get elsewhere.

Well here is a concern I have---if your 3 RD are respectively Shattenkirk, Pionk and DeAngelo in whatever order--which one is going to be your defensive rock?---or the guy that gets the toughest matchups--who gets Ovechkin when we play the Caps? Marchand when we play the Bruins? Voracek the Flyers? Which of the two are getting the penalty kill detail?--because IMO two of the RD are going to have to do it--and they are likely going to be the two that wind up with more ice time than the guy who doesn't or doesn't very much. In our last game against the Caps Pionk got the Ovechkin job and did all right but is he really the guy you want doing the matchup work all the time? IMO--none of the three are ideal for the job and FWIW neither is Smith though Smith at least matches up much better physically than any of them.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Well here is a concern I have---if your 3 RD are respectively Shattenkirk, Pionk and DeAngelo in whatever order--which one is going to be your defensive rock?---or the guy that gets the toughest matchups--who gets Ovechkin when we play the Caps? Marchand when we play the Bruins? Voracek the Flyers? Which of the two are getting the penalty kill detail?--because IMO two of the RD are going to have to do it--and they are likely going to be the two that wind up with more ice time than the guy who doesn't or doesn't very much. In our last game against the Caps Pionk got the Ovechkin job and did all right but is he really the guy you want doing the matchup work all the time? IMO--none of the three are ideal for the job and FWIW neither is Smith though Smith at least matches up much better physically than any of them.

It doesn't really matter who lines up with them, nobody is a good choice and we aren't going to be able to contain star players like we did the last few years when our defense was much better. Pionk and ADA will learn and get better, but there will be growing pains as a whole team next season and those star players will take advantage of our young defensemen.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

Well here is a concern I have---if your 3 RD are respectively Shattenkirk, Pionk and DeAngelo in whatever order--which one is going to be your defensive rock?---or the guy that gets the toughest matchups--who gets Ovechkin when we play the Caps? Marchand when we play the Bruins? Voracek the Flyers? Which of the two are getting the penalty kill detail?--because IMO two of the RD are going to have to do it--and they are likely going to be the two that wind up with more ice time than the guy who doesn't or doesn't very much. In our last game against the Caps Pionk got the Ovechkin job and did all right but is he really the guy you want doing the matchup work all the time? IMO--none of the three are ideal for the job and FWIW neither is Smith though Smith at least matches up much better physically than any of them.

I thought we are rebuilding, If ADA comes to camp all guns blazing and so does Smith and Pionk, I don't know what happens. Personally I am not a fan of ADA type defensemen, I would love to trade him together with Bigras for a 2nd round pick.

 

[eco's bones]

I thought we are rebuilding, If ADA comes to camp all guns blazing and so does Smith and Pionk, I don't know what happens. Personally I am not a fan of ADA type defensemen, I would love to trade him together with Bigras for a 2nd round pick.

Who said we weren't rebuilding? That doesn't mean we're trying to lose--does it?

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

Who said we weren't rebuilding? That doesn't mean we're trying to lose--does it?

no, but it doesn't mean we will have a perfect roster this season. We will have holes and weaknesses.

 

[Tawnos]

Who said we weren't rebuilding? That doesn't mean we're trying to lose--does it?

It doesn’t mean we’re trying to lose but it also means creating the roster and implementing the matchups most likely to garner wins isn’t the focus.

It’s going to be really interesting in the GDTs this season. Watching a team during a rebuild is a different animal than watching a team with competitive goals. Can we all adjust?

 

[kovazub94]

Well here is a concern I have---if your 3 RD are respectively Shattenkirk, Pionk and DeAngelo in whatever order--which one is going to be your defensive rock?---or the guy that gets the toughest matchups--who gets Ovechkin when we play the Caps? Marchand when we play the Bruins? Voracek the Flyers? Which of the two are getting the penalty kill detail?--because IMO two of the RD are going to have to do it--and they are likely going to be the two that wind up with more ice time than the guy who doesn't or doesn't very much. In our last game against the Caps Pionk got the Ovechkin job and did all right but is he really the guy you want doing the matchup work all the time? IMO--none of the three are ideal for the job and FWIW neither is Smith though Smith at least matches up much better physically than any of them.

There are a lot of question marks with this line up and this is just one of them. Pionk is groomed to be a two-way defenseman and Shattenkirk is a default 1RD going into the season, so these two will get to face opponents top2 forward lines. Ideal? No, but it would have to do.

 

[Blue Blooded]

Shattenkirk performed significantly better in a defensive role last year than he did in an offensive one.

When paired with Staal or McDonagh getting sub-50% OZS/DZS he posted good RelCF% and RelxGF% numbers.

When paired with Skjei or Smith getting ~70% OZS/DZS he posted mediocre to outright bad RelCF% and RelxGF%.

Looking at his career you can see a similar trend where he generally performed slightly better with balanced or defensive usage and slightly worse with sheltered offensive usage. His steady partner during his best years was Barrett Jackman.

Just because he is an elite PPQB doesn't mean he is a 1-way offensive guy 5v5.

 

[OrlandK]

Seems like a meaningless debate. We have neither a true 1st pair LHD or RHD. Regarding the statement that we had a good D the last few years - you've got to be kidding. We had ~ the worst possession numbers in the league last year. Our crappy d could not get it done (in addition to other issues) which is a major reason we needed to go into a full rebuild. In fact, with the benefit of hindsight, we haven't had a good D for years, masked by strong goaltending.

So goal # 1 is to figure out what prospects are actually true NHLers by playing them. That is even more important than trying to make the 8th playoff spot instead of finishing a bit lower.

The reality is that we will not be very good this season. The season will be a success if a number of prospects play and seem to have great potential moving forward; regardless of our record. Of course it will be a much more entertaining season if we are competitive in most games but we should not hamstring the rebuild by trying to win a few more games with a more balanced team.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Shattenkirk performed significantly better in a defensive role last year than he did in an offensive one.

When paired with Staal or McDonagh getting sub-50% OZS/DZS he posted good RelCF% and RelxGF% numbers.

When paired with Skjei or Smith getting ~70% OZS/DZS he posted mediocre to outright bad RelCF% and RelxGF%.

Looking at his career you can see a similar trend where he generally performed slightly better with balanced or defensive usage and slightly worse with sheltered offensive usage. His steady partner during his best years was Barrett Jackman.

Just because he is an elite PPQB doesn't mean he is a 1-way offensive guy 5v5.

This is why when I see people putting him with Skjei, it hurts me head. Skjei was very good with ADA, and Shattenkirk was better with Staal, but they were awful together. But the knee jerk reaction is to put them with each other.

 

[NYR Viper]

The Rangers should just play ADA AND Pionk. It's not that difficult. The seasn isn't going to be pretty. Try and develop both of those guys and play the hot hand more than the other.

Skjei, Smith and Staal on the left side. Play Smith on his off-side on the PK

 

[Ola]

While true, the vast majority of lefties come up as LD and the vast majority of righties come up as RD. It’s not so much that a lefty can’t play RD as someone who has spent their life at LD can’t just suddenly play RD effectively.

No way, it’s a lot easier to play on the wrong side in college and Europe where the ice sometimes is bigger and game slower. Skjei and McD are good examples, at times they played on the wrong side outside the NHL and supposedly could do it in the NHL too. But they weren’t even remotely close.

There is a huge shortage of RDs. A ton of LHS are playing at RD in Europe, other than Hjalmarsson not ONE have been able to do it for any time in the NHL. Then someone brings up like Hampus Lindholm, and then 1-2 years passes and a story breaks how it was essential for HL to get moved back to the correct side.

Sure there are many advantages, but the disadvantages are significant and just wears on a player physically and mentally. Look at TJ Brodie.

Sure it works as an emergency/interim solution. But there is no way you can look at a LHS in junior/college/Europe playing on the right side and say that it’s possible to do it in the NHL longterm. Wishful thinking.

 

[eco's bones]

You hardly ever see a right shot d-man playing the left side--it's always left to right because for some reason there are more left shot d-men. But why is it that coaches try to have as many left shot/left side right shot/right side as possible?--for offensive purposes it works better to have the d-man shooting from the off side but for defensive purposes it absolutely works against the player--forcing him to play off the back hand all the time and putting him in risky situations against opposing forecheckers. As far as international I remember McDonagh playing right side with Suter at the Olympics but there is a whole lot more room and having a partner as savvy as Suter who knows how to use all the extra space helps a lot too. The Rangers put McDonagh on the right side a few years back and like in his second game there Andrew Ladd ran him and he was out injured for a while and he was pretty turned away from the hit because he was playing the wrong side.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

No way, it’s a lot easier to play on the wrong side in college and Europe where the ice sometimes is bigger and game slower. Skjei and McD are good examples, at times they played on the wrong side outside the NHL and supposedly could do it in the NHL too. But they weren’t even remotely close.

There is a huge shortage of RDs. A ton of LHS are playing at RD in Europe, other than Hjalmarsson not ONE have been able to do it for any time in the NHL. Then someone brings up like Hampus Lindholm, and then 1-2 years passes and a story breaks how it was essential for HL to get moved back to the correct side.

Sure there are many advantages, but the disadvantages are significant and just wears on a player physically and mentally. Look at TJ Brodie.

Sure it works as an emergency/interim solution. But there is no way you can look at a LHS in junior/college/Europe playing on the right side and say that it’s possible to do it in the NHL longterm. Wishful thinking.

I am 100% sure that not just Hjalmarsson is successful on the right side, other left shooting Dmen playing right side are successful.

 

[True Blue]

The Rangers should just play ADA AND Pionk. It's not that difficult. The seasn isn't going to be pretty. Try and develop both of those guys and play the hot hand more than the other.

Skjei, Smith and Staal on the left side. Play Smith on his off-side on the PK

I agree with this. If ADA, Pionk and Smith all show in camp that they should be playing, then find a way to play all 3. More than likely, I think that it will be as you describe with Smith playing the off-side.

And yes, in a season like this, you may as well see if you have something worth developing.