Player Discussion Tom Wilson, NHL All-Star (Part 3)

[txpd]

Another whatabout argument is "why aren't other players punished for the same hit?" After all, murderers shouldn't get away with murder just because other murderers get away with murder.

Try again, Twabs. Your analogy here crashes and burns. The league in its statement and Elliotte Friedman reporting league wide response says that there was no crime. There was no murder to get away with.

 

[txpd]

I'm not really that surprised that people around the league think others wouldn't have been penalized for the hit and that only Tom Wilson would get this treatment. If Matt Cooke were in the league and made the same hit, I think he'd also get a hefty punishment, for instance

The fact is Tom Wilson has a unique suspension record, so he is going to get unique scrutiny. Is there anyone in the league right now who has as many suspensions due to illegal hits, and games missed due to suspension due to illegal hits? I don't think the punishment is for him being Tom Wilson and Tom Wilson alone, it's because he keeps making dirty hits. Indeed, Wilson skirted the line several times before he received his first suspension, and the NHL even put out a video for why they did not suspend him when he hit Brayden Schenn:



He did receive the benefit of the doubt early in his career. But then he kept making borderline to illegal hits, until the league said enough. And now, he doesn't receive the benefit of the doubt. As I mentioned, I think there was some doubt in whether Brandon Carlo was defenseless.

This is not to say that I think it's right that others would not have been penalized for the hit. I think too many players get away with too many bad hits. That doesn't mean that Tom Wilson should get away with bad hits though.

Great choice, Twabs. Shanny goes thru this hit by the numbers and explains that it was not borderline or illegal. That it was textbook. You seem to be saying that Wilson's textbook legal hits are too hard and he should stop doing it or pay the price anyway.

 

[Hivemind]

@twabby you're wasting your breath here. The Wilson-avatar-brigade has long ago made up their mind on this issue, well before this hit even took place.

 

[twabby]

You're just blowing past what people are saying in favor of "nuh uh, it's Tom Wilson" as an argument that there is no "it's Tom Wilson" component.

Posing hypotheticals about Matt Cooke is unprovable whataboutism. Showing examples of identical or worse hits that go unpunished is evidence of inconsistency that supports the claim that TW is not being treated the same as every other player.

So you can't have it both ways here. You can't argue that there's no identity component while also arguing "yeah but it's Tom Wilson".

Do you not see that contradiction? He would not be "unique" if everyone caught on tape doing the same thing were punished by the same standards. This isn't about murderers that evade the cops, this about visual evidence that gets treated differently depending on the suspect.

It's not an identity component, it's a "Tom Wilson is the most suspended player in the league" component. Yes, he is getting increased scrutiny because he is the most suspended player in the league. Prior to this, he was not the most suspended player in the league, and he received some benefit of the doubt. Prior to that, he was not suspended at all and he received a big benefit of the doubt. But as more and more borderline to bad hits accumulated, he received less and less benefit of the doubt. And now, he receives basically none, because he keeps committing borderline to bad hits.

I agree that if it was anyone else currently playing in the league they likely would have gotten away with at most a 1 game or so suspension for the hit on Carlo, clean players may have only gotten a fine or nothing. But that's because no one else has the history of Tom Wilson, not because the league hates Tom Wilson and is looking to get him.

If you're making the argument that more people should be suspended for bad hits then I agree. But that doesn't mean that Tom Wilson should get away with this hit.

 

[twabby]

And qualifying "the DoPS has been bad at their job" with "protecting the players" as if that's their only job is a bit of a sidestep and a cop out. They're bad at their job because they're capricious in their treatment of players, or outright biased.

If their only job was protection or safety they'd be changing the rules to remove hits and fighting. Which is probably what you meant, and want. If not then you acknowledge their job is about judging hits BY THE RULES, which they didn't do here.

If TW is some magical player that somehow manages to injure players by some elusive exception to the rulebook then modify the rule. Otherwise stop suspending the guy for doing what you've already told him to do (hands down, not charging, not blindside, etc).

The NHL DoPS can't change the rules on their own, the GMs have to agree to any rule changes. They are at fault here for allowing so much gray area. not the DoPS.

And Tom Wilson clobbered the guy in the head with his fists into the boards. His hands certainly weren't down at the end of the hit. If he couldn't control himself enough to not clobber the guy in the head with his fists, then he should have declined to make the hit.

 

[tenken00]

If you're making the argument that more people should be suspended for bad hits then I agree. But that doesn't mean that Tom Wilson should get away with this hit.

This is it. Either start penalizing players for the exact same things or write it out in the rulebook so that there is a clear delineation in the first place. Don't half ass things. The Friedman 31 thoughts on the incident basically brought up what I was talking about on the main boards discussion. Remove all hitting along the boards. Then there will be no "Tom Wilson" incidents such as this. I mean, that's why you are punishing Tom Wilson for right? Because it's not stated anywhere in the rules. It's really because you worry about the health of all players, right?

 

[twabby]

Great choice, Twabs. Shanny goes thru this hit by the numbers and explains that it was not borderline or illegal. That it was textbook. You seem to be saying that Wilson's textbook legal hits are too hard and he should stop doing it or pay the price anyway.

Yes, my point was the league is not out to get Tom Wilson, despite the protestations of many here. Many people at the time thought in the heat of the moment that a suspension was warranted for this hit, and were outraged that he was not suspended.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I think the league's actions have shown that they're much more concerned with Wilson injuring players than they are with evaluating the legality of his hits under a microscope or on a frame by frame basis. It's why he's getting 7 games for a hit that is vanishingly close to an everyday hit below the goal line under the purview of boarding. The intended message seems to be think twice before blowing up vulnerable players, even if you think you can make a huge hit that's clean by the letter of the (vague and inconsistently applied) rules.

I think that's right, and also the right thing for them to do.

Tom Wilson has injured a lot of players. The pattern is well-established.

 

[twabby]

Try again, Twabs. Your analogy here crashes and burns. The league in its statement and Elliotte Friedman reporting league wide response says that there was no crime. There was no murder to get away with.

Yes, I'm sure many disagree with the interpretation of the defenselessness of Carlo. I bet many also believe that it was a bad hit, or at least questionable. As I mentioned, I'm unsure of the legality of the hit. But what I am sure of is that Wilson deserves absolutely no benefit of the doubt for his history of injuring players with illegal to borderline illegal hits.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I was gone for the weekend and missed all of this but I think a few things: it's clear the rules are different for Tom and that he's scrutinized more closely than the rest of the league, it's clear he's brought it on himself to some degree and will be judged more harshly in the future due to past behavior (and for being bigger, faster, and stronger than most other players which means his hits are more violent), and it's clear the DoPS has no idea what they're doing.

Sure, bigger, stronger, faster than most. But he's not a physical freak relative to the NHL. There are other players who could cause the damage Wilson causes, and yet they aren't.

 

[Ovie's Neighbor]

I think the league's actions have shown that they're much more concerned with Wilson injuring players than they are with evaluating the legality of his hits under a microscope or on a frame by frame basis. It's why he's getting 7 games for a hit that is vanishingly close to an everyday hit below the goal line under the purview of boarding. The intended message seems to be think twice before blowing up vulnerable players, even if you think you can make a huge hit that's clean by the letter of the (vague and inconsistently applied) rules.

This is exactly it. We all know there is no suspension if Carlo isn’t hurt. It’s the result of the hit and not the hit itself. Because of Wilson’s history any hit that results in a concussion will likely be a long suspension. What is frustrating is that when this happens to our players there are no suspensions.

 

[Ovie's Neighbor]

Sure, bigger, stronger, faster than most. But he's not a physical freak relative to the NHL. There are other players who could cause the damage Wilson causes, and yet they aren't.

You know bigger or faster doesn’t necessarily mean harder hitter. Hitting also has a science about it in terms of the right angles and timing and Wilson is great at that. I’m not sure of another player who hits harder than Wilson consistently. He reminds me a bit of Sean Taylor.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Sure, bigger, stronger, faster than most. But he's not a physical freak relative to the NHL. There are other players who could cause the damage Wilson causes, and yet they aren't.

Of course he’s a physical freak. His wheels combined with his size, strength, talent and grit are absolutely unique for a power forward today. There’s a reason why most TV pundits regularly say every team wants a guy like him, but they don’t exist.

 

[Midnight Judges]

You know bigger or faster doesn’t necessarily mean harder hitter. Hitting also has a science about it in terms of the right angles and timing and Wilson is great at that. I’m not sure of another player who hits harder than Wilson consistently. He reminds me a bit of Sean Taylor.

Yes, timing and vision - all that stuff comes into play.

Wilson is definitely looking to line people up. He chooses to do it, and he was definitely engaging on that level in that particular game with Boston. That was a heavy couple of games.

Peak Ovie had better speed and power than Wilson, and I'm not sure it is particularly close. Ovie is a true freak. And to his credit he toned it down after being suspended. I've seen him go easy on guys who are vulnerable (not always, but much moreso than his younger years). He doesn't actually have to do let up. But I think it's decent that he does.

 

[g00n]

It's not an identity component, it's a "Tom Wilson is the most suspended player in the league" component. Yes, he is getting increased scrutiny because he is the most suspended player in the league. Prior to this, he was not the most suspended player in the league, and he received some benefit of the doubt. Prior to that, he was not suspended at all and he received a big benefit of the doubt. But as more and more borderline to bad hits accumulated, he received less and less benefit of the doubt. And now, he receives basically none, because he keeps committing borderline to bad hits.

I agree that if it was anyone else currently playing in the league they likely would have gotten away with at most a 1 game or so suspension for the hit on Carlo, clean players may have only gotten a fine or nothing. But that's because no one else has the history of Tom Wilson, not because the league hates Tom Wilson and is looking to get him.

If you're making the argument that more people should be suspended for bad hits then I agree. But that doesn't mean that Tom Wilson should get away with this hit.

This is still the same circular reasoning. "He's suspended more because he's Tom Wilson, and he's Tom Wilson because he's suspended more".

During the earlier days he was still not being treated the same as other players. You can point to the times when he wasn't suspended as counterexamples but that ignores the same types of inconsistencies that were going on at the time for other players and similar hits. DoPS didn't just suddenly become a joke. It (or it's equivalent, can't recall) was a joke back then, too.

It's revisionism to pretend he was the big bad wolf while nobody else was getting away with anything, and that's why he became Tom "Mr. Suspension" Wilson, which is now used by people like you to justify suspensions.

At some point it became reputation based. And now you're saying it's not based on reputation, but it is, which is circular.

You're having it both ways.

 

[g00n]

The NHL DoPS can't change the rules on their own, the GMs have to agree to any rule changes. They are at fault here for allowing so much gray area. not the DoPS.

And Tom Wilson clobbered the guy in the head with his fists into the boards. His hands certainly weren't down at the end of the hit. If he couldn't control himself enough to not clobber the guy in the head with his fists, then he should have declined to make the hit.

Stop with the semantic deflections. You know exactly what I meant. Do you really think the DoPS has no input or forum to discuss rules with the rest of the league? That all the do is interpret rules without comment beyond that?

If you think he clobbered the guy in the head with his fists you're blind.

 

[Carlzner]

Yes, my point was the league is not out to get Tom Wilson, despite the protestations of many here. Many people at the time thought in the heat of the moment that a suspension was warranted for this hit, and were outraged that he was not suspended.

What kind of an argument is this?

People on the main board are outraged if Wilson's jersey grazes another player

Search "Tom Wilson" on twitter after any Caps game and there are probably 100+ people whining about some random play.

 

[Hivemind]

You know bigger or faster doesn’t necessarily mean harder hitter. Hitting also has a science about it in terms of the right angles and timing and Wilson is great at that. I’m not sure of another player who hits harder than Wilson consistently. He reminds me a bit of Sean Taylor.

You've stumbled on the point. If Wilson didn't look to blow people up with every hit, he wouldn't end up crossing the line as often. But because he so often looks to blow people up, when even the smallest thing goes wrong with the hit, it crosses into the dangerous and/or illegal territory.

 

[tenken00]

You've stumbled on the point. If Wilson didn't look to blow people up with every hit, he wouldn't end up crossing the line as often. But because he so often looks to blow people up, when even the smallest thing goes wrong with the hit, it crosses into the dangerous and/or illegal territory.

Blow up people like this? This got no suspension.

How is the Tom Wilson hit more dirtier than this?

 

[twabby]

This is still the same circular reasoning. "He's suspended more because he's Tom Wilson, and he's Tom Wilson because he's suspended more".

During the earlier days he was still not being treated the same as other players. You can point to the times when he wasn't suspended as counterexamples but that ignores the same types of inconsistencies that were going on at the time for other players and similar hits. DoPS didn't just suddenly become a joke. It (or it's equivalent, can't recall) was a joke back then, too.

It's revisionism to pretend he was the big bad wolf while nobody else was getting away with anything, and that's why he became Tom "Mr. Suspension" Wilson, which is now used by people like you to justify suspensions.

At some point it became reputation based. And now you're saying it's not based on reputation, but it is, which is circular.

You're having it both ways.

I'm afraid you're not comprehending what I'm writing.

He's suspended more because he keeps committing bad to borderline bad hits. He's not Tom Wilson because he keeps committing bad to borderline bad hits, he's Tom Wilson because his parents had a child and named him Thomas Wilson, shortened to Tom. He wasn't born with a disorder that makes him have bad to borderline bad hits in hockey, that was an acquired thing and a choice that he has made continuously throughout his life and career. He could stop committing bad to borderline bad hits, but he has chosen not to.

You aren't giving any examples of players with the same or similar history getting better treatment than Tom Wilson at any point in their respective careers. And indeed, I pointed out one example of a similarly dirty player (Matt Cooke) who received increased scrutiny as his career went on, just like Tom Wilson. Raffi Torres is another example. Yes, it's impossible to prove that Matt Cooke or Raffi Torres committing the same hit at the same point in his career after the same history would get the same punishment, but it's also impossible to disprove. Their histories and punishments are similar enough to Wilson's that I think they would have received the same or similar punishment, while your example is not a good one because you haven't actually provided have an example, and you certainly don't have a pattern of examples to prove it's a trend that Tom Wilson is uniquely punished because it's Tom Wilson, and not because of his long history of injuring players in illegal to borderline illegal hits.

 

[Hivemind]

Blow up people like this? This got no suspension.

How is the Tom Wilson hit more dirtier than this?

View attachment 405268

Whataboutism

 

[txpd]

@twabby you're wasting your breath here. The Wilson-avatar-brigade has long ago made up their mind on this issue, well before this hit even took place.

what a load. You are putting Friedman in the Wilson avatar brigade? What he said was pretty straight forward

 

[tenken00]

Whataboutism

I am actually not downplaying the severity, I just want it to be all judged the same way. Isn't that the exact opposite of whataboutism?

 

[twabby]

What kind of an argument is this?

People on the main board are outraged if Wilson's jersey grazes another player

Search "Tom Wilson" on twitter after any Caps game and there are probably 100+ people whining about some random play.

Again, my point is that despite the masses pressuring the NHL to suspend Wilson, the DoPS did not suspend Wilson and cave to the pressure, as many are claiming they are doing now with their suspension of Wilson for clobbering Brandon Carlo in the head. It's a data point in favor of "the DoPS does not have any personal animus toward Tom Wilson."

 

[Hivemind]

what a load. You are putting Friedman in the Wilson avatar brigade? What he said was pretty straight forward

What he said also wasn't what you think it was. Tom Wilson isn't persecuted because his name is Tom Wilson. Tom Wilson is scrutinized heavier because of his lengthy history of bad hits.