Toews vs Bergeron

[nowhereman]

Sorry but Bergeron doesn't touch Datsyuk, the best 200 foot player ever.

As for this poll, I gotta go with Toews. He's got that rare clutch factor that allows his team to still be in a game with 10 seconds left.

Nah, Bobby Clarke would have something to say about that.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Nah, Bobby Clarke would have something to say about that.

and if we're going that way with it they all bow down to Bobby Orr

 

[CTZ181]

Bergy. More consistent, more often healthy, and as great as Toews is I think Bergeron is better defensively.

Looking back at this generation there were so many great hardworking gritty two-way #1Cs. Toews, Bergeron, Sid, Kopitar, ROR

 

[BlueMed]

Did you need me to spell it out more for you? I laid it all out there pretty clearly and yes, i voted Bergeron. His longevity and his defense outweighs the other areas that they're close in.

Bergeron had 4 goals in 4 games, tying him for the series lead in goals before getting hospitalized in the 2nd period in Game 5 and nearly died trying to come back and play in Game 6. He's also outplayed Toews in just about every head to head game since.

Why didn't you ever explicitly state Bergeron? Usually people do so and then give arguments behind that. Anyways, I don't think there's a significant difference between Bergeron or Toews or ROR. For some reason, people always have to try to find a difference when many players are basically tied. Bergeron may have an edge defensively but Toews has the clutch factor.

 

[Sheppy]

Bergeron.

 

[BlueMed]

Ahh there it is. Shoehorning the Blues win over the Bruins like you do in every post including you saying that Tarasenko is better than Pastrnak.

Believe it or not, it takes a good *team* to win the cup and win a series. Just because the Hawks and Blues were the better team in a 7 game series doesn't mean anything when comparing 2 individual players.

If you would read my posts a little more carefully, you would realize that it was never the victor behind the argument but rather the play of the player in the series. I don't really care which team won the series between the Blackhawks and Bruins in 2013. I do however care about how the players played in the finals, and Toews definitely rose to the occasion a bit more than Bergeron.

That being said, I do think Toews and Bergeron are fairly equal, all things considered.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

The only reason why Bergeron is winning this poll is because he's had better linemates over the last 4-5 years or so.

Toews hasn't had Pastrnak and Marchand level players to play with in a long time.

Hossa-Toews-Kane was a nuclear option, and Bergeron has basically had that level linemates for a while, which has propped him up.

I would like to see what Bergeron would have done with the linemates Toews had from 2016-2018.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

If you would read my posts a little more carefully, you would realize that it was never the victor behind the argument but rather the play of the player in the series. I don't really care which team won the series between the Blackhawks and Bruins in 2013. I do however care about how the players played in the finals, and Toews definitely rose to the occasion a bit more than Bergeron.

That being said, I do think Toews and Bergeron are fairly equal, all things considered.

Are you judging Bergeron in the series he had those absurd injuries to the extent the Bruins would not even have allowed him to play Game 7?

The only reason why Bergeron is winning this poll is because he's had better linemates over the last 4-5 years or so.

Toews hasn't had Pastrnak and Marchand level players to play with in a long time.

Hossa-Toews-Kane was a nuclear option, and Bergeron has basically had that level linemates for a while, which has propped him up.

I would like to see what Bergeron would have done with the linemates Toews had from 2016-2018.

Ironically, Toews could have been replaced by nearly any #1 center in the NHL and Chicago doesn't miss a beat. That team was dynamic.

Bergeron and Marchand spent seasons carrying the likes of Jordan Caron and any other garbage the Bruins could try with them.

 

[BlueMed]

Are you judging Bergeron in the series he had those absurd injuries to the extent the Bruins would not even have allowed him to play Game 7?




Ironically, Toews could have been replaced by nearly any #1 center in the NHL and Chicago doesn't miss a beat. That team was dynamic.

Toews was the leader of that dynamic group. He wasn't a passenger...

 

[PB37]

Why didn't you ever explicitly state Bergeron? Usually people do so and then give arguments behind that. Anyways, I don't think there's a significant difference between Bergeron or Toews or ROR. For some reason, people always have to try to find a difference when many players are basically tied. Bergeron may have an edge defensively but Toews has the clutch factor.

Because there's things Bergeron does better and there's things Toews does better and there's things that they both do that are fairly equal. I don't think i couldn't have been any clearer with how I laid my post out and how i feel Bergeron's defensive dominance for the past decade tilts my opinion in his favor.

 

[Dr Salt]

Are you judging Bergeron in the series he had those absurd injuries to the extent the Bruins would not even have allowed him to play Game 7?




Ironically, Toews could have been replaced by nearly any #1 center in the NHL and Chicago doesn't miss a beat. That team was dynamic.

Bergeron and Marchand spent seasons carrying the likes of Jordan Caron and any other garbage the Bruins could try with them.

Lmao. Toews' peak was absolutely insane, those cups aren't happening without him.

 

[JaegerDice]

Are you judging Bergeron in the series he had those absurd injuries to the extent the Bruins would not even have allowed him to play Game 7?

He was healthy (by hockey player standards) through the midway point of Game 5. At that point he sustained the injury to his ribs/intercostal muscles that pulled him out of Game 5. Toews was pulled out of the same game, in the same period for a hit to the head that resulted in a concussion. They both played through their injuries in game 6, where Bergeron suffered a dislocated shoulder as well. Nobody is taking anything away from Bergeron's toughness, but it's not like he entered the series in bad shape. He was at less than 100% for one game, the same game Toews was (I'm not going into 'injury olympics' over who had it worse, I don't know shit about how bad Toews concussion was), and absent for roughly same time of game 5 that Toews was. In the time that Toews and Bergeron were gone, the Bruins dominated the Blackhawks. In the time both were playing in Game 5, it was vice versa. Take of that what you will as far as each player's relative impact and import to each team.

Ironically, Toews could have been replaced by nearly any #1 center in the NHL and Chicago doesn't miss a beat. That team was dynamic.

I mean, could a worse 1C than Toews still allow the Blackhawks to win the cup in 2013? Maybe, it's unproveable.

It would be hard to find a center better than Toews in 2013 though. Among centers that played more than 350 TOI he was:

1st in GAR
1st in xGAR
1st in WAR
1st in xWAR
1st in xGF%
5th in Rel.xGF%
2nd in GF%
4th in Rel.GF%
2nd in 5v5 GF/60
3rd in 5v5 Rel.GF/60

Like, who are you getting that's performing better at the time as far as raw on-ice impact?

 

[PB37]

He was healthy (by hockey player standards) through the midway point of Game 5. At that point he sustained the injury to his ribs/intercostal muscles that pulled him out of Game 5. Toews was pulled out of the same game, in the same period for a hit to the head that resulted in a concussion. They both played through their injuries in game 6, where Bergeron suffered a dislocated shoulder as well. Nobody is taking anything away from Bergeron's toughness, but it's not like he entered the series in bad shape. He was at less than 100% for one game, the same game Toews was (I'm not going into 'injury olympics' over who had it worse, I don't know shit about how bad Toews concussion was), and absent for roughly same time of game 5 that Toews was. In the time that Toews and Bergeron were gone, the Bruins dominated the Blackhawks. In the time both were playing in Game 5, it was vice versa. Take of that what you will as far as each player's relative impact and import to each team.




I mean, could a worse 1C than Toews still allow the Blackhawks to win the cup in 2013? Maybe, it's unproveable.

It would be hard to find a center better than Toews in 2013 though. Among centers that played more than 350 TOI he was:

1st in GAR
1st in xGAR
1st in WAR
1st in xWAR
1st in xGF%
5th in Rel.xGF%
2nd in GF%
4th in Rel.GF%
2nd in 5v5 GF/60
3rd in 5v5 Rel.GF/60

Like, who are you getting that's performing better at the time as far as raw on-ice impact?

If memory serves me correct, Bergy was leading the series in goals with 4 when he got injured in G5.

And he should have never played in G6. Chicago Med wanted to keep Bergeron because his injuries were serious and only released him because the Bruins convinced them he would be flown back home to Boston and immediately go to the hospital. That never happened, Bergeron suited up for G6 and the punctured lung occured ( i think in the 1st period was the rumor ). Total shit show by the Bruins to trot him out like that.

 

[JaegerDice]

If memory serves me correct, Bergy was leading the series in goals with 4 when he got injured in G5.

And he should have never played in G6. Chicago Med wanted to keep Bergeron because his injuries were serious and only released him because the Bruins convinced them he would be flown back home to Boston and immediately go to the hospital. That never happened, Bergeron suited up for G6 and the punctured lung occured ( i

If memory serves me correct, Bergy was leading the series in goals with 4 when he got injured in G5.

And he should have never played in G6. Chicago Med wanted to keep Bergeron because his injuries were serious and only released him because the Bruins convinced them he would be flown back home to Boston and immediately go to the hospital. That never happened, Bergeron suited up for G6 and the punctured lung occured ( i think in the 1st period was the rumor ). Total shit show by the Bruins to trot him out like that.

That's crazy.

I had only heard punctured lung among the speculation of why he was taken away in the ambulance in Game 5. Never heard that it actually happened after that in game 6, only heard that he had separated a shoulder in addition to the broken rib and torn muscles from game 5.

I agree, if true, it's ridiculous he was allowed to play.

 

[PB37]

In G4, he suffered torn rib cartilage. G5 was the broken rib and seperated shoulder. From what I've heard from someone close, the doctors in Chicago were concerned that the lung was close to being punctured, which is why they were reluctant of the Bruins to move him out of Chicago and to Boston. And then in G6, that's exactly what happened and his lung collapsed. I don't care how tough someone is or how important the game is - if a potential life threatening injury, that player shouldn't play. The decision should never be the players, but the team, who's job is to protect the f***ing players. It still pisses me off that they could be so careless with the health of a player like that. And the cherry on the top is the complete lack of accountability and the shrugging of the shoulders of not knowing when the injuries happened, etc etc. They knew exactly what Bergeron had and when and they still wouldn't pull him.