Tired of Nolan's Schtick

[Aapo]

Biggest problem I see with Nolan continuing this full season is that this years draft will be very important for the construction of the team of tomorrow. Would be a perfect oppertunity for the next (real) coach going forward to be involved at this stage, both concerning players to be drafted and not least players traded for at draft day.

 

[Jim Bob]

Biggest problem I see with Nolan continuing this full season is that this years draft will be very important for the construction of the team of tomorrow. Would be a perfect oppertunity for the next (real) coach going forward to be involved at this stage, both concerning players to be drafted and not least players traded for at draft day.

Murray won't talk to the coach about who to draft.

 

[Savitar]

Specifically, what is it you want from Nolan? You and others don't want Nolan because he is *bad*, well what is it that makes him bad? What do you want him to do differently?

He is not an x and o's coach, he mismanages the bench, benches players after a productive outing, praised for making his team hustle, we look deflated almost every night, we lack discipline, we are unprepared almost every single night, We do not compete for 60 minutes, inconsistency, declining player performance (Hodgson, Leino didn't even score last year, Do I need to continue?

You will never win in this league with as many question marks as Nolan has, I'm not going to go into next season saying what if Nolan gets his team to work, it's not going to happen.

He is the Terry Collins of the NHL, Terry Collins is a baseball manager who is the architect of 4 straight losing seasons. Misuse of talent, Overusage of players, becomes accepting of garbage and bad play, lies to the media, has infatuations with less than spectacular players etc. You DONT win with coaches like this. Nolan needs to go ASAP! We are all entitled to our opinions, this one is mine

 

[Jim Bob]

You DONT win with coaches like this. Nolan needs to go ASAP! We are all entitled to our opinions, this one is mine

If the goal is not to win, shouldn't that coach be kept around for a while?

 

[Savitar]

If the goal is not to win, shouldn't that coach be kept around for a while?

Only until the offseason put it that way, we wouldn't be any different under Trottier. The coach that will help us turn the corner is going to come externally, not internally

 

[Aapo]

Murray won't talk to the coach about who to draft.

Drafts maybe not so much. But trades (including trades with picks for players)?

 

[joshjull]

Drafts maybe not so much. But trades (including trades with picks for players)?

Nolan has absolutely no say in personnel matters. The only thing Nolan controls is what he does with the players once they are on the roster. But who makes the team out of camp, who gets called up/sent down, traded, drafted, waived, claimed on waivers, etc is all Murray.

 

[Aapo]

Nolan has absolutely no say in personnel matters. The only thing Nolan controls is what he does with the players once they are on the roster. But who makes the team out of camp, who gets called up/sent down, traded, drafted, waived, claimed on waivers, etc is all Murray.

Yes, and rightfully so, but would that still be the same if we recruited a competent coach for long term purpose? No exchange of thoughts on what players would best benefit the team??

 

[joshjull]

Yes, and rightfully so, but would that still be the same if we recruited a competent coach for long term purpose? No exchange of thoughts on what players would best benefit the team??

Exchange of thoughts are happening now. Being directly involved and having control or a big say in what happens, no. Thats how it is for the overwhelming majority of NHL coaches.

And no NHL coach has a say in who his team drafts. Thats silly and seems to be fishing for something to complain about. We have the largest scouting department in the NHL and a GM thats a scouting junkie. All set up to draft the best possible prospects with our picks. But you want a coach (no matter who it is) to have a say over who we draft?

 

[Paxon]

Nolan has absolutely no say in personnel matters. The only thing Nolan controls is what he does with the players once they are on the roster. But who makes the team out of camp, who gets called up/sent down, traded, drafted, waived, claimed on waivers, etc is all Murray.

He has no authority over those things but I wouldn't go so far as to assume he has no input on things like call-ups, not that it really matters to the argument.

 

[Aapo]

Exchange of thoughts are happening now. Being directly involved and having control or a big say in what happens, no. Thats how it is for the overwhelming majority of NHL coaches.

And no NHL coach has a say in who his team drafts. Thats silly and seems to be fishing for something to complain about. We have the largest scouting department in the NHL and a GM thats a scouting junkie. All set up to draft the best possible prospects with our picks. But you want a coach (no matter who it is) to have a say over who we draft?

No, I'm not in this for the sake of complaining. While I don't think Nolan is the best coach for this present team, he isn't mismanaging the current line up enough to get me upset during a season like this.

It is the exchange of thoughts between coach and GM that I feel isn't optimum that it's lacking. Some of the core of the future Sabres is already here but a noticeable part will be decided this coming draft (both in terms of drafted players, but also not unlikely in terms of trades). As you yourself state, Nolan has probably nothing to say in these matters. So, if we had a capable coach that was hired to be here long term, we would have the benefit of his judgement in questions, like which player to keep and which others could fit well in. Simple as that.

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

You still haven't gotten the hint? Don't waste my time replying to any of my posts. Ever. Starttttiiiiing.... Now.

I'm torn on whether I want the fresh face or someone who is a proven winner.

It'd be nice to get the next big thing... But every team could hypothetically state that as a desire. I'm not sure how keen i am on the thought of someone growing into the job with such a young roster.

I know this much: our current coach is not the long term answer.

I think most people hope we will eventually have better than Nolan. Why waste that guy during the throwaway years when Nolan is a such a good scapegoat?

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

He has no authority over those things but I wouldn't go so far as to assume he has no input on things like call-ups, not that it really matters to the argument.

The frustration he's showed at times about roster situations would suggest to me that if he does have any input it's taken at minimal value.

 

[sabrebuild]

No NHL coach has the time to make any informed opinions on the draft. At best in a situation were your team is out of the playoffs, your coach has barely two months to watch bare minimum 100 guys, let's say he just is gonna help with first three rounds. Let's pretend that the organization has 5 games worth of tape on each one of those guys, they don't, so roughly 500 hours of game tape to watch to have basic knowledge of less than half the draft. If your team is good, he might only have a few weeks to tak a look, so a long term coach is not offering any advice beside what type of guy he might like.

 

[kenfury]

At this point I would think Kevin Devine and Chadd Cassidy are just as important to the team future as Nolan and Trottier.

 

[Sinter Klaas]

People commenting on this thread seem to me to be people who hadn't watched much hockey prior to 2000.

First of all, Nolan is piloting a team arguably of 4 fourth lines. With the exception of Ennis, and Girgs a team that is going to set historic lows for offense and PP percentage. Vince Lombardi, Scotty Bowman, and Phil Jackson would have a hard team doing any better with the talent that he has been given (and if you don't believe me, wait a year or two and see how many of the current roster will be out of the NHL).

Secondly, Nolan deserves some accolades for his past performance. He was an exceptional junior coach, he took a team that got rid of all stars of LaFontaine (who was injured during Nolan's last year here), Hawerchuk, Mogilny, and other quality players like Doug Bodger into the playoffs in his second year.

After watching the Islanders play the year after the canceled season, I thought it would be light years before they would make the playoffs (Buffalo scored over 20 goals vs. them in the four times the played). He takes the helm right after that season and guides them into the playoffs and nearly guides them to the playoffs the following year.

I am not expecting Nolan to make miracles. There are many problems with this team, systemic of when previous management was around, that is being rooted out. Nolan gets one more pass for me this year, and he has no excuse next year if the roster lays an egg.

 

[Moskau]

People commenting on this thread seem to me to be people who hadn't watched much hockey prior to 2000.

First of all, Nolan is piloting a team arguably of 4 fourth lines. With the exception of Ennis, and Girgs a team that is going to set historic lows for offense and PP percentage. Vince Lombardi, Scotty Bowman, and Phil Jackson would have a hard team doing any better with the talent that he has been given (and if you don't believe me, wait a year or two and see how many of the current roster will be out of the NHL).

Secondly, Nolan deserves some accolades for his past performance. He was an exceptional junior coach, he took a team that got rid of all stars of LaFontaine (who was injured during Nolan's last year here), Hawerchuk, Mogilny, and other quality players like Doug Bodger into the playoffs in his second year.

After watching the Islanders play the year after the canceled season, I thought it would be light years before they would make the playoffs (Buffalo scored over 20 goals vs. them in the four times the played). He takes the helm right after that season and guides them into the playoffs and nearly guides them to the playoffs the following year.

I am not expecting Nolan to make miracles. There are many problems with this team, systemic of when previous management was around, that is being rooted out. Nolan gets one more pass for me this year, and he has no excuse next year if the roster lays an egg.

He's a motivational coach in an era where being only that doesn't cut it anymore. Things like matching lines, playing to an advantage with O and D zone starts etc. are such a huge part of the game today. Would a coach like Ken Hitchcock have this team in the playoffs? No. But he would at least have them playing a system that allowed them to not get slaughtered every night. I think many of the positives Nolan does with his hoo-rah-rah is offset by the negatives he does with his inability to make things on the ice easier for the team.

Don't get me wrong this isn't me saying Nolan isn't the right coach for the team. I don't know if he is. But saying he's a good coach is like saying Rachael Ray is a chef. She's a cook.

 

[joshjull]

He's a motivational coach in an era where being only that doesn't cut it anymore. Things like matching lines, playing to an advantage with O and D zone starts etc. are such a huge part of the game today. Would a coach like Ken Hitchcock have this team in the playoffs? No. But he would at least have them playing a system that allowed them to not get slaughtered every night. I think many of the positives Nolan does with his hoo-rah-rah is offset by the negatives he does with his inability to make things on the ice easier for the team.

Don't get me wrong this isn't me saying Nolan isn't the right coach for the team. I don't know if he is. But saying he's a good coach is like saying Rachael Ray is a chef. She's a cook.

Couple things

1) He does line match so I'm not quite sure why your pointing to that as a problem.

2) O-zone/d-zone starts. On a team that rarely possesses the puck and has its o-zone to d-zone starts skewed heavily towards d-zone starts. How exactly does that enable a team to shelter players with O_zone starts? Add in the fact that the majority of our top offensive players have relied on a majority of o-zone starts on other teams and for other coaches for their offensive success in the past. Guys like Moulson, Stewart, Hodgson , Ennis and Stafford to name a few. Its close to impossible to give the amount of O-zone starts they would all need.


Hitch wouldn't get the team to play any better with his system. Hitch relies on a defensively oriented system. It needs a decent amount of good defensive players or two way players to be remotely effective. He wouldn't have any where near enough of those players for his system to work here and Murray isn't going to get him players to help him. But that brings up a point that needs mentioning again…..


Murray built this team to not be very effective at anything or as most keep saying they are built to lose. Murray is also not going to bring help in to improve any flaws in the roster. Hell he has probably our 4th best dman in Pysyk in the minors specifically to keep our NHL d-corp in worse shape than it would be otherwise. He only brings players up from Rochester when we are short enough players that he has to. In some cases its to evaluate guys not necessary to bring up the best option for whats needed. I would hope posters see that nothing he does is to help the current team have success. As it should be with the goal he has for this season.

Posters seem to forget that guys like Hitch and Babcock can only implement their systems and approach if they have enough of the type of players they need to play those systems. The also get help from their GM in getting those types of players. Neither would be able to implement their systems here because they wouldn't have the players to do so and Murray isn't going to go get any this year to help them.

 

[joshjull]

I know I'm viewed as a Nolan fanboy and defender at all cost but thats not why I defend him as much as I do. I see a team the GM built to lose and not be effective play exactly as he built them to. That same GM does nothing to help the team address issues that arise during the season. Nor should he with the goal he has in mind. To give you one example on a small scale, earlier in the year Nolan was asking for a center, I forget who was hurt but Murray said no use what you have. So Kaleta ended up playing center that night. A team trying to win doesn't do that. they would have brought up a better option from the farm. So the idea that an another coach could come and and wave a magic wand and turn this roster into an effective team with their system is a foolish stance. The GM has worked against the success of the team when he built it and continues to work against it during the season with call up decisions and decisions like keeping Pysyk in Rochester.


To be clear, I have no idea if Nolan is the answer long term and have never argued he was. What I am saying is to decide one way or another based on this season is a bit ridiculous based on the goals of the season, construction of the team and the approach of the GM. Only thing I've been concerned with is how the youngsters develop and handle things as the season progresses. So far so good with all but one of them. Myers, Ennis, Girgs, Risto and Zads have progressed nicely. Hodgson is the only one not progressing as I've hoped. It could Nolan's fault. It could be the limitations of the roster that doesn't enable an advantageous role for him. Or it could be a bit of both.

But none of us will know if Nolan and his staff can handle coaching in this league now, or if he is the answer longer term, until we see what he and his coaching staff can do with a team that has enough talent to effectively implement a system. Enough talent that gives them options in various situations with players playing more favorable roles and secondary options for certain roles, etc. Right now they don't have that type of talent or depth at all. But I do I think he has a good staff with guys that are good system/tactical guys like Flynn/Coolan and a good mentor for the youngsters in Trottier.

 

[dasaybz]

These guys skate into each other all the time. Their defensive zone play if completely horrendous, it's like nobody knows where to be at all. Just stand out there by the blue line and wave your stick around ...

The coaching is pathetic, now I'll probably give him til about the midway point next year, and if this team isn't greatly improved, then he has to go.

 

[sabrebuild]

The coaching panic, as in fire him now someone else could do better, is a fascinating part of the social experiment that is the tank. The team was brought as low as possible for the sole purpose of getting the top pick this year, and yet people get worked up because that team gets beat badly, some of the time. Hitchcock would not make this team better, this team does try except in a few games were they got completely blown out, which happens. This team is incredibly untalented and the pieces that do have talent are either extremely young or incredibly handicapped by the surrounding lack of talent.

Basically what the tank has taught us is that a huge portion of this board would not get two marshmallows in the old experiment, and a large portion of the group that would get their extra marshmallow would have thrown twenty irrational fits while they waited for the time to end.

 

[thefifagod]

Hated him being hired (again) in the first place and I feel stronger about it now. His player usage is simply mind numbing and no, it's not just because of the roster construction. If he's truly trying to win games, there are plenty of things he is doing wrong and he's too dumb to realize, making him the perfect tank commander. That said, I see no reason to make any change now. I fully expect Murray to choose his own coach in the relative short term, be it after the season or at some point into next season and to thank Ted for taking these beatings.

 

[wunderpanda]

If he's truly trying to win games, there are plenty of things he is doing wrong and he's too dumb to realize,

Care to name a few of those things that aren't intrinsically bound to roster composition?

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

The most successful basketball coach since Phil said he straight up doesn't scout other teams and leaves that stuff to his assistants.

I'm not ****ing with Nolan until he underperforms relative to the talent on his roster.

 

[sabrebuild]

Hated him being hired (again) in the first place and I feel stronger about it now. His player usage is simply mind numbing and no, it's not just because of the roster construction. If he's truly trying to win games, there are plenty of things he is doing wrong and he's too dumb to realize, making him the perfect tank commander. That said, I see no reason to make any change now. I fully expect Murray to choose his own coach in the relative short term, be it after the season or at some point into next season and to thank Ted for taking these beatings.

I get not wanting him long term, I just don't think the slightly better adjustments he could make or another coach could make, would change much if at all in regards to their competitive balance.