Time to start Ellis - Take 2

[Blueline Bomber]

I just can't wrap my mind around, regardless of how bad the defense was, how that move was in any way excusable to do ONCE, let alone twice against the same player leading to the two most important goals of the game. I don't care if it was in the shootout where it's just one on goaltender, you just can't drop like that in the NHL and give guys who can elevate the puck past a peewee level the top half of the net to shoot at. I don't care how much Cam-guzzling goes on, those two plays did a huge part in losing the game for us. Bottom line.

Because the previous 3 times he was left to fend against a Bruins player, one-on-one, that pad stacking worked. In fact, he did the exact same thing not a few minutes earlier when McBain got too fancy on the PP and let Peverley go in alone shorthanded.

Now Cam should realize that NHL players are going to figure it out eventually (which Horton clearly did), but there was a reason Cam continued to go back to that move. It had worked up to that point.

 

[Lazyking]

Maybe because he did it like four times before that and made the save in the same game? I don't like it either but it was working.

 

[tomdundo]

Can we stop debating whether or not Cam is to blame for the game by now? People obviously see both sides of the argument, but it's a combination of both Cam poorly executing (on the Horton goal) along with defensive lapses leading to other goals (the first and fourth, mainly).

Yes, the team lost the game, but they really didn't look close to winning it despite the score at any point on the game to me. I saw a lethargic, intimidated-looking team that didn't want to physically compete with Boston. Nobody wanted to work hard enough along the boards to secure the puck for solid periods of possession in the offensive (or defensive) zones. It was a game of failed dump-and-chase or players trying to do it all themselves (Skinner trying to force his way between two defensemen).



Move on past this game, let Muller make the decision on Ward/Ellis as none of us have any sort of say in this goalie situation, and re-evaluate with the next game.

 

[Lazyking]

The intresting thing is, Ellis will start one game this weekend and that will either be a turning point or he'll have a bad game and all of this will quiet down.

 

[normalpsychology]

The intresting thing is, Ellis will start one game this weekend and that will either be a turning point or he'll have a bad game and all of this will quiet down.

Eh I don't think people will be so hasty. Cam has had 4 bad games, if Ellis has 1 bad game he still has 3 more bad ones before he catches up to Ward.

 

[normalpsychology]

Yeah, that goal was the story of the night. Horton walks our supposed best defensive forward and our supposed best defensive-minded defenseman, leaving Ward to face the shot alone....like he did multiple times that night.

Do yourself a favor and check out Tarheel's subjective +/- ratings. He does a great job of breaking down goals for and against.

Lol Tarheel's subjective rankings are just that - subjective. And with the biases he brings the results are completely absurd.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Eh I don't think people will be so hasty. Cam has had 4 bad games, if Ellis has 1 bad game he still has 3 more bad ones before he catches up to Ward.

So given that Ellis won't get nearly the amount of starts that some believe he will, it'll be late March until we end this Ward/Ellis "debate"?

 

[normalpsychology]

So given that Ellis won't get nearly the amount of starts that some believe he will, it'll be late March until we end this Ward/Ellis "debate"?

Is any debate in hockey ever over? Players are continuously improving, aging, getting better, or getting worse. There are always things to talk about.
But really, hopefully things will be clearer much earlier than then, or we will have two well performing goalies who we can use interchangeably!

 

[Vagrant]

So given that Ellis won't get nearly the amount of starts that some believe he will, it'll be late March until we end this Ward/Ellis "debate"?

The debate will end when Ward plays a game worthy of winning a game devoid of a six goal output by our offense. If he starts playing like a starter, he'll get the respect of a starter. Take the nameplates off these guys.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Lol Tarheel's subjective rankings are just that - subjective. And with the biases he brings the results are completely absurd.

He opens those to the boards, if we have an issue with one of his assessments we bring it up and talk about it. And, even if they aren't 100% accurate, they certainly aren't "completely absurd." They're awesome, a really useful assessment of a player's even strength impact.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I just can't wrap my mind around, regardless of how bad the defense was, how that move was in any way excusable to do ONCE, let alone twice against the same player leading to the two most important goals of the game.

I'd say his excuse on the second one was the fact that it was a save.

Once Harrison threw the rebound to Hamilton, Ward's position didn't matter anymore. No goalie on earth is going to come out of saving a one-timer on one post and then make an instant save on a one-timer at the other post.

 

[Beardy*]

I'd say his excuse on the second one was the fact that it was a save.

Once Harrison threw the rebound to Hamilton, Ward's position didn't matter anymore. No goalie on earth is going to come out of saving a one-timer on one post and then make an instant save on a one-timer at the other post.

I don't know how you can blame Ward for the GWG. The third one, yeah, I'll give you that, as he definitely went to that well one too many times and got burned for it, but the GWG? That was horrible team defense played in front of him with the worst offenders being Harrison and Gleason, who were standing idly in front of Cam after he makes a one timer save on one post, only to have it sent immediately to the other for the easy bury.

To be honest, had Cam made that save, he probably would have pulled or torn a muscle in his leg or back. Bodies aren't meant to move that quickly and in that motion.

 

[Vagrant]

I'd say his excuse on the second one was the fact that it was a save.

Once Harrison threw the rebound to Hamilton, Ward's position didn't matter anymore. No goalie on earth is going to come out of saving a one-timer on one post and then make an instant save on a one-timer at the other post.

I don't think he even got a piece of the shot by Horton that rang the post. I think it hit the post, Ward was so slow getting back to his feet because he needlessly dropped down, and the puck bounced out to the slot and went in. Had Ward never dropped and exposed the top half of the net, it may not have even been a shot much less a post, much less a goal. It was horrid goaltending.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I don't think he even got a piece of the shot by Horton that rang the post. I think it hit the post, Ward was so slow getting back to his feet because he needlessly dropped down, and the puck bounced out to the slot and went in. Had Ward never dropped and exposed the top half of the net, it may not have even been a shot much less a post, much less a goal. It was horrid goaltending.

It didn't hit the post at all. It hit his glove and went up, where Harrison then threw it directly to an opponent.

It was a god damned good save that SHOULD have stolen at least a point in the standings, and he's been skewered for it here because Forslund incorrectly called it a post shot.

 

[Novacane]

Video evidence courtesy of tarheelhockey yesterday:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=58571187&postcount=362

 

[Vagrant]

Fair enough, point conceded. I didn't stick around for any replays because I was too pissed. I suppose my auxiliary point would be that just because something "works", it isn't always the best way to do things. I feel like the style of save selected by Cam there wasn't one that minimized his economy of motion and took him out of position to make further saves should they be required. I think it was misplayed by Cam even after having viewed that replay. It's the same as a defenseman making an offensive pinch. If it works, he's a genius. That doesn't mean it was the right play at the right time. Context is incredibly important.

 

[Dutch Oven]

Stick with Gerber

 

[echlfreak]

goalies have great games because teams give a goalie a chance to be great! Once the team gives Cam a chance he will string a bunch of games together!

 

[tarheelhockey]

Fair enough, point conceded. I didn't stick around for any replays because I was too pissed. I suppose my auxiliary point would be that just because something "works", it isn't always the best way to do things. I feel like the style of save selected by Cam there wasn't one that minimized his economy of motion and took him out of position to make further saves should they be required. I think it was misplayed by Cam even after having viewed that replay. It's the same as a defenseman making an offensive pinch. If it works, he's a genius. That doesn't mean it was the right play at the right time. Context is incredibly important.

I agree that he didn't get any technical points there, same as on the Horton goal. The guy was barraged with high-quality shots in that game (btw, how many high quality shots did the Canes have? Five? Maybe?) and several times had to just explode across the crease and hope for the best, thus getting in a rut of stacking the pads.

The save on Horton might not have been technically perfect, but most goalies don't get a piece of that shot at all, let alone being asked to make an identical save on the opposite side 2 seconds later.

I mean, by all means Ward is definitely not on his A-game. But the idea that he was bad last night or cost us a win... I'm just not on board with scapegoating the goalie like that.

 

[GoCanes2013]

The first period against BOS was ATROCIOUS. A shorty and a PP goal from BOS, sorry - neither of those are on Cam. This team hangs him out to dry and then HF piles on him like he's a AHL call up. Our team SUCKED in the 1st period against BOS. Couldn't clear the zone, did we have 3 shots on goal? 7? Mcbain got his first (and the team's FIRST 1st period goal all year) but other than that Cam was FRANTIC trying to keep up with HIS team allowing BOS to come at him at will. So far this year I give 65/35 responsibility to the Team Defense over Cam for accountability. We need Faulk back or another strong defenseman.

 

[Anton Babchuk]

goalies have great games because teams give a goalie a chance to be great! Once the team gives Cam a chance he will string a bunch of games together!

Why was Ellis able to have a great game?

Are we to believe that the one game Dan Ellis started just happened to be the one game where the team played well?

Or was it that Ellis didn't flop to the ice 400 times?

 

[Identity404]

Why was Ellis able to have a great game?

Are we to believe that the one game Dan Ellis started just happened to be the one game where the team played well?

Or was it that Ellis didn't flop to the ice 400 times?

Ellis stood on his head against Buffalo. I don't remember how many breakaways and prime scoring chances he stopped, but there were a bunch. I don't understand how some people continue to defend Ward on the basis of the defense being terrible. The defense IS terrible, but Cam still isn't anywhere where he needs to be at this point. The Boston game was a prime example. Most of the goals happened around defensive breakdowns, but Cam was playing very un-Cam like, flopping around making desperation saves, instead of playing a sound positional game and reacting to the puck. Ellis looks extremely calm in net. He made difficult saves look routine because he was playing the type of game Cam should be playing.

I think we should take advantage of the fact that Ellis was playing in Charlotte and is already up to game speed. Cam isn't playing bad enough to be calling him out for losing us games, but he certainly isn't standing on his head, or making those great saves to keep us in the game, something your #1 goaltender should be doing on a regular basis, giving you a chance to win.

I'm not worried about Cam. He is a professional and will get to where he needs to be. But why not play Ellis a few more times until Cam gets there? I'm not expecting him to take over the starting job, but so far he has shown the ability to give us a better chance to win right now.

 

[Identity404]

The best way to overcome early adversity is to keep playing. Ward has started in four of the team’s first five games. He said he thought Monday’s game against Boston – despite the 5-3 outcome – was his best performance thus far.

“I expect myself to be playing at my potential right off the bat, and it’s been difficult,” he said. “I thought my best game was against Boston. I hate to lose, and I’m never satisfied with that, but I felt I was moving well, and I felt more like my old self. I want to take the positives away from a game like that.”

Cam want return two pad stack.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

In terms of making the saves on the quality chances, he had his best game against Boston. In the first two, there weren't many saves at all, and against Buffalo, the quality chances that he faced, he didn't save.

But if Ward feels like he's getting his confidence back, that can only be a good thing.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

He stacked the pad, what, 3 times out of 30 saves?



Why are we making such a big deal about this pad stacking anyway?