Moving Reimer/Franson/Gardiner does what exactly? We have a core problem with this team ie. Phaneuf, Kadri, Lupul, Kessel. Something is wrong with this team. Cutting off your nose despite your face does nothing for this team. We need big changes. not small ones.
I don't think the core is what necessarily limits us. It could work if better complemented, but we'll be taking a big gamble since they'll be entering their prime. Lupul obviously should go, but I don't think Kessel and Phaneuf ( our most expensive pieces) were necessarily the missing link this season.
Thing is, getting the support may not be possible. That's the major reason why I'd consider a short rebuild. Anyhow, we'd need someone that can compliment Phaneuf's style Say Byfuglien with Phaneuf playing a more conservative game. Big Buff is quite mobile, creative with the puck and can handle big minutes. For Kessel, either a two-way centre or a two-way secondary ( both may be required IMO) to supplement our one-dimensional top scoring line is required. Acquiring that kind of support is going to be a challenge.
Word. This core doesn't deserve to stay together. My untouchables are Bernier, JvR, Rielly. I'd lke to see Bolland back and I'd like to see Clarkson sort it out and start being the player he has always been, but beyond that select group, I wouldn't shed a tear if anyone not on that list wore a different jersey in October.
Agreed, this collapse should be a huge eye opener to not only the management but the fan base. After all this crap and people are suggesting getting rid of Reimer, Franson.. etc...ok and that's supposed to change things. Reimer and Franson!. Dion/ Kadri/Lupul/Gunnarsson/Gleason/Franson/Reimer/ should all be packing their bags. I'd even move Kessel if we got blown away by an offer. I am so sick of mediocrity with this team
Northernguy10
Registered User
... I think you'd be shocked at the interest from most of the other 29 teams if Kadri was on the trading block...can you give me stats to show how meaningless his points are and compare him to other 22-25 year old centers on non-playoff teams?...
Northernguy10
Registered User
Same old...
I'm not even going to read the comments yet in this thread... This team is doomed in perpetuity until we develop a culture...I understand this term is loosely thrown around but it's time to bite the bullet, face the music etc., pick your cliche...This team seemed to be starting toward this last year and I actually enjoyed the hockey played against the Bruins in the playoffs despite the loss. We had speed...we had some toughness (at least the signs of it developing)...Nonis...has to go...too conservative...trying to fill perceived holes and doing a patch job...Carlyle:... has to go...a dinosaur in his coaching beliefs...we will go nowhere without a dedication to effort and playing as a team, pulling for each other, standing up for each other and all rowing in the same direction...We need young...progressive people in charge, behind the bench and upstairs...we need a vision and players who fit that vision...I've watched this team for 56 years and am old enough that I saw them win their last 4 cups in the 60's...I've seen a **** show throughout the next 5 decades...that's decades, and we still want to try "filling this hole"..."if only we had______"..."this player has to go..."we need that player to be successful" ...No...we need a culture..a plan..a direction...and we have to draft, develop,trade within the parameters of our team culture...Kessel ( and by extension probably Bozak), Phaneuf, Lupul have to go for players that will pay the price to win...I believe we can get a good return because some other teams are solid and need some offense (i.e. LA)...I believe we have some good, hard working prospects in the AHL, junior, Europe and college...the Marlies play hard for a coach that is tough but fair...I see that as a small glimmering light at the end of a long dark tunnel...I see a future...only if Shanahan understands all of the above...Sorry for rambling...5 decades of frustration will do that to a person.
I'm not even going to read the comments yet in this thread... This team is doomed in perpetuity until we develop a culture...I understand this term is loosely thrown around but it's time to bite the bullet, face the music etc., pick your cliche...This team seemed to be starting toward this last year and I actually enjoyed the hockey played against the Bruins in the playoffs despite the loss. We had speed...we had some toughness (at least the signs of it developing)...Nonis...has to go...too conservative...trying to fill perceived holes and doing a patch job...Carlyle:... has to go...a dinosaur in his coaching beliefs...we will go nowhere without a dedication to effort and playing as a team, pulling for each other, standing up for each other and all rowing in the same direction...We need young...progressive people in charge, behind the bench and upstairs...we need a vision and players who fit that vision...I've watched this team for 56 years and am old enough that I saw them win their last 4 cups in the 60's...I've seen a **** show throughout the next 5 decades...that's decades, and we still want to try "filling this hole"..."if only we had______"..."this player has to go..."we need that player to be successful" ...No...we need a culture..a plan..a direction...and we have to draft, develop,trade within the parameters of our team culture...Kessel ( and by extension probably Bozak), Phaneuf, Lupul have to go for players that will pay the price to win...I believe we can get a good return because some other teams are solid and need some offense (i.e. LA)...I believe we have some good, hard working prospects in the AHL, junior, Europe and college...the Marlies play hard for a coach that is tough but fair...I see that as a small glimmering light at the end of a long dark tunnel...I see a future...only if Shanahan understands all of the above...Sorry for rambling...5 decades of frustration will do that to a person.
diceman934
Help is on the way.
It is funny that many on here want to trade Kadri, who was our 3rd leading scorer despite playing with piss poor wingers who could not or would not win puck battles, the same people who are in favour of trading Kadri are stating that JVR is an untouchable.....why? Kadri out hit him, blocked more shots and was tougher to play against...and was only 9 pts behind him this year despite his poor wingers and less playing time as well as PP time.
We should not trade Kadri, Gardiner, Bernier, Rielly .....the rest can go for the right price....including JVR, who takes far to many shifts and games off.
Our core group needs to change....and soon! Trading Dion would change this team....for the better!
Why anyone would want to trade Kadri and Gardiner is a mystery to me....these are young players who we need....we would be trading them in hopes of getting a similar player back....that to me is stupidity at its finest.
We should not trade Kadri, Gardiner, Bernier, Rielly .....the rest can go for the right price....including JVR, who takes far to many shifts and games off.
Our core group needs to change....and soon! Trading Dion would change this team....for the better!
Why anyone would want to trade Kadri and Gardiner is a mystery to me....these are young players who we need....we would be trading them in hopes of getting a similar player back....that to me is stupidity at its finest.
is kadri part of the core? he just played the full season this year.
the core over the last several years is: bozak, kessel, lupul, phaneuf, gunnarson, orr, mcclement, kulemin, reimer.
on all teams you need offense. expecting kessel to be toews or a 2-way is unrealistic. he is a piece of the offense and if he's main part of it, you have problems.
bozak was actually playing better this year, but is lacks grit
-reimer aside from his streakiness is fine. he has rust but seems to have mental weakness. when he lets in crappy goals it snowballs from there. he didn't get better or worse.
-orr brings nothing now, doesn't fight, doesn't hit.
-phaneuf is the same, and also not a leader and not very -respected by the other teams. he did great pre-olympics.
-mcclement is slowing down with almost no offensive threat
-lupul is slowing down a bit with almost no defensive desire
-kulemin is drifting and showing less and less as the seasons pass. he did his best when playing with kadri and lupul. he's still defensive responsible, but showed less physicality and offense for his skill set.
these are the players that need to be traded if you want a culture change.
i'd throw in franson, gleason and clarkson just because they are slow and can't contain anybody.
personally, i'd keep bozak, kessel, lupul, as you need offense, and fill the forward lines with free agents who work hard or prospects (maybe broll or devane instead of Orr, See if Carrick can win faceoffs like mcclement, d'amigo on 3rd line and bodie on 4th, etc).
free agents that would be interesting are callahan, vanek, moulson, stasny, penner, setogouchi.
Last edited:
Trade Clarkson (salary retention), Gleason (salary retention), Phaneuf (salary retention?), Franson, Reimer, Lupul (salary retention?) and Gunnarsson. I think Kessel and Bozak are possibly tradeable too. But if the Leafs just clean house like mad but can't find the right players to replace their salaries, then there is no point in going into fire sale mode. So as long as guys like Kessel and Bozak can preserve their value *fingers crossed* I wouldn't be opposed to the Leafs "tanking" and becoming a salary floor team this season though. If the plan is to rebuild over 2+ years. Sell high on Kessel and Bozak while they still have value may be a good strategy for the long-term.
Let Bolland, Kulemin and McClement walk
Re-sign Raymond ($2.35 million/yr or less)
Re-sign Gardiner ($2.15 million/yr or less)
Re-sign Holland to a cheap deal (925k/yr max so that we can bury his contract in the minors without cap penalty when necessary. He's waiver exempt for one more year)
Re-sign Trevor Smith to a cheap deal (925k/yr max. Even if he doesn't see much ice time anymore on the Leafs, he can at least make a contribution in the AHL as the Marlies captain)
Re-sign Troy Bodie ($1m/yr-ish or less)
Re-sign Paul Ranger (bit of a raise)
Make some plays in the UFA market. Try to look for bargain deals. Don't pay too much for superstars or faux-superstars (David Clarkson, Ryane Clowe). Oh and most importantly, play the kids. Tap on the shoulders of some young Marlies. We would also be able to pick up some good players for the traded players (entry-level contract prospects and cheap RFAs offer the best value for money. But you have to invest in some "established" players too. Too much cap efficiency can be a bad thing. Then you find yourself desperate to make the cap floor) And stock up on some draft picks.
Let Bolland, Kulemin and McClement walk
Re-sign Raymond ($2.35 million/yr or less)
Re-sign Gardiner ($2.15 million/yr or less)
Re-sign Holland to a cheap deal (925k/yr max so that we can bury his contract in the minors without cap penalty when necessary. He's waiver exempt for one more year)
Re-sign Trevor Smith to a cheap deal (925k/yr max. Even if he doesn't see much ice time anymore on the Leafs, he can at least make a contribution in the AHL as the Marlies captain)
Re-sign Troy Bodie ($1m/yr-ish or less)
Re-sign Paul Ranger (bit of a raise)
Make some plays in the UFA market. Try to look for bargain deals. Don't pay too much for superstars or faux-superstars (David Clarkson, Ryane Clowe). Oh and most importantly, play the kids. Tap on the shoulders of some young Marlies. We would also be able to pick up some good players for the traded players (entry-level contract prospects and cheap RFAs offer the best value for money. But you have to invest in some "established" players too. Too much cap efficiency can be a bad thing. Then you find yourself desperate to make the cap floor) And stock up on some draft picks.
Last edited:
JvR scored 30 goals while playing injured for half the season. Nobody was more clutch, and nobody scored more goals from the dirty areas. 30 goals and 31 assists, 9 on the PP, 2 short handed and 3 game winners. Why the hell wouldnt he be an untouchable?
He's big, protects the puck well and he plays a courageous game where he pays the price for hanging in the heavy traffic areas.
Kadri is a good talent. I question the fit. I dont think anyone can say he made any of his linemates better. If Kadri in a package with Phaneuf netted an elite defender and a prospect I'd be absolutely fine with that.
This may be one of those cases where his true value is in what he nets in return via trade.
I agree. A bold move or two is the only way to right this ship. I just don't see this core being good enough to compete.
Good post. I like this idea.
Most fans probably will be up in arms about it, but I like it.
ToMaLe
Registered User
I agree, those are the same 4 I would love to start next season without. Im ok with Kadri being traded for the right deal but for me it would have to be a huge overpayment to let Gardiner go. At season's end he was our best defensemen by a mile.
I definitely agree with trading Dion Phaneuf (29, way overpaid) and Joffrey Lupul (turns 31 this fall, overpaid). But hesitate to move young Nazem Kadri just yet (24 this fall). Or Phil Kessel (overpaid but he's still a near-PPG pace player and 27 years old this fall). I think Kessel is tradeable but I'm a bit gun shy on that deal. There are guys on this roster that I would make it a priority to trade before I look at trading Phil Kessel. It's true that Phil Kessel doesn't contribute much value when he or his line mates don't score. But if the 1st line isn't scoring goals, chances are the Leafs are trailing anyway. A situation in which defense is not the priority. So who cares if Phil Kessel can't play a two-way game? So as long as Phil Kessel is bagging goals at a .45+ GPG rate and nearly PPG, he is doing his job for the most part. He's definitely overpaid but that's true for pretty much every winger who makes $7m/yr+ not named Corey Perry. Superstar wingers tend to suck at forechecking/backchecking (the wing is the least important position for defense), overrated and overvalued as ****. The franchise player of a cup contender is their 1C. Though not always. When your team's 1C is not your best player (Tyler Bozak), that's usually a sign of trouble. Luckily for us, Tyler Bozak is not paid like a 1C at least.
Last edited:
The CyNick
Freedom of Speech!
- Sep 17, 2009
- 11,364
- 2,032
Kadri and Gardiner likely won't net you huge return but they could end up being much better players than they are now due to their age. Like with any potential trade it depends on the return.
Mess
Global Moderator
over the course of a 82 games season the Leafs need to get significantly better than bottom 10 NHL standings and bottom 5 in goals against.
So do you trade the players that have the most value to address those team needs or the ones that have the least to improve on their positions?.
Drastic times call for drastic measures they always say.
So do you trade the players that have the most value to address those team needs or the ones that have the least to improve on their positions?.
Drastic times call for drastic measures they always say.
Both.
Trade the guys who play big minutes but let the team down. Remove the secondary players that don't fulfill their roles with harder working, better defensive players (this group includes Raymond, Lupul, Franson and Clarkson (though moving him is a pipedream)).
The CyNick
Freedom of Speech!
- Sep 17, 2009
- 11,364
- 2,032
Love these threads where we pretend to understand the value of guys like Kadri and Gardiner around the league.
Leafidelity
Best Sport/Worst League
Guarantee Caryle is gone.
I don't care how good a coach is, if players historically don't like him, and players don't want to play for him, then your starting from behind each season.
Shanahan was a smart guy to bring in, he's a likeable former player that young guys might look up too and want to play for.
Leafs need to bring in a good Coach with a history of having respect from his players. Trotz might be a good addition in that regard.
I think Bernier has the potential to be a top goaltender in this league, I'd love to see what he could do behind a stingy defence.
I don't care how good a coach is, if players historically don't like him, and players don't want to play for him, then your starting from behind each season.
Shanahan was a smart guy to bring in, he's a likeable former player that young guys might look up too and want to play for.
Leafs need to bring in a good Coach with a history of having respect from his players. Trotz might be a good addition in that regard.
I think Bernier has the potential to be a top goaltender in this league, I'd love to see what he could do behind a stingy defence.
rrc1967
Registered User
I'm okay with any player from a 23rd placed team out of 30 getting traded.
Not sure how hanging onto players with an obvious losing mentality is such a good thing. There are no untradeable players over the age of 22 on this team if someone wants them.
It's really time to look at "addition by subtraction" for this purported core that is going no where fast.
Putting lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig.
Not sure how hanging onto players with an obvious losing mentality is such a good thing. There are no untradeable players over the age of 22 on this team if someone wants them.
It's really time to look at "addition by subtraction" for this purported core that is going no where fast.
Putting lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig.
I know people love to bash on Phaneuf and at times rightfully so, but I guarentee you this team will improve noticeably if we replace Franson with an actual dependable d-man(granberg even).
Franson consistently made dumb blind passes that caused goals against, consistently was too slow to catch up to a breakaway causing goals against, consistently had his stick in the wrong place etc.
he played 20ish min a night for us, replace those with a smart d-man and we'd probably be close to the playoffs right now(at least a few more wins).
I'd be for a phaneuf trade but we'd have to get a decent d-man in return.
Franson consistently made dumb blind passes that caused goals against, consistently was too slow to catch up to a breakaway causing goals against, consistently had his stick in the wrong place etc.
he played 20ish min a night for us, replace those with a smart d-man and we'd probably be close to the playoffs right now(at least a few more wins).
I'd be for a phaneuf trade but we'd have to get a decent d-man in return.
This.
Additions by subtractions, Columbus is a good example of this. They became a much better team once they moved Nash. By comparison, the Rangers seemed to get worse by the move too.
Ottawa Senators became a weaker team with the addition of Bobby Ryan.
Boston decided to move Thornton for peanuts, in hindsight it might have been the best move for their franchise.
We need to build around our youth. This year our youth albeit pretty effective, didn't get enough of an opportunity. Holland, D'amigo, Ashton. All were called up to play 4th line minutes, with mostly 4th line calibre players. Holland had like 8 points in 10 games before being demoted to 4th line once Bozak returned. There was nothing to be excited about on this team, in terms of youth this past season, except for maybe Reilly.
pretty much.
clarkson imo will improve and bolland won't be brought back. kuli and mcclement are ??? too. we don't know the financials lol
