Hockey Outsider
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- Jan 16, 2005
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I found a copy of THN's "Hockey's Greatest Debates", a special that they released around 2005. (I can't figure out the exact date, but that's my best guess). The voting was done by a panel of 41 writers - though they didn't disclose a list of names. The winner of each category got a two-page write-up, and the runner-up got a shorter blurb. They also showed the results of fan voting (but it didn't say how fans were able to do so).
Here are several of the categories, with some commentary added:
Who is the best player of all-time?
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[/TBODY]It's interesting to see how close it is between Gretzky, Howe and Orr. Lemieux failed to get a single vote, which I found surprising, but he'll do well in the next category. Still, it supports my view that he has no case whatsoever for being ranked first all-time.
It's unjustifiable for Trottier and Forsberg (as great as they were) to have received even a single vote.
The fan vote had Gretzky solidly in first, Orr second, then a bit of a gap. Howe was third, then Lemieux fourth. After, Richard was a distant fifth.
Who is the best individual talent of all time?
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[/TBODY]Essentially a two-way race between the two best offensive talents of all-time, with Orr getting the few remaining votes. Note that Howe gets zero votes here.
Interestingly, the fan vote had Gretzky decisively in first. Lemieux and Orr were next. Very far behind ranked Pavel Bure and Denis Savard.
What was the best dynasty of all-time?
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[/TBODY]Not overly surprisingly. I still think the Islanders are the most underappreciated dynasty in NHL history.
The fan vote was similar, except the Oilers and 1970s Canadiens were switched. The late 1940s Leafs were a distant 5th.
Who is the best goalie of all-time?
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[/TBODY]I'm not surprised to see Roy in first, but his margin of victory was unexpected.
Note that Sawchuk ranks ahead of Plante and Hall; I've written several times about how disappointing his numbers appear to have been from the mid fifties onward, but those who saw him generally seem to rank him as the best goalie of the Original Six era.
Roy dominated the fan selections (with nearly 58% of the vote). Far behind were Sawchuk, Hasek, Plante, and Hall.
Who is the clutch performer of all-time?
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[/TBODY]There are some odd choices here - there's simply no reason that Oates and Thomas should get any votes in this category. I'm not surprised to see Richard and Gretzky in a close battle for first - but I was surprised to see just how well Messier does (he's become significantly underrated on HFBoards).
Roy only getting a single vote was unexpected (though he and Smith were the only goalies to get any).
The fan vote was slanted towards the Oilers. Gretzky and Messier ranked first and second (accounting for nearly two-thirds of the votes). Richard was third, Claude (not Mario) Lemieux was fourth, and Anderson was fifth.
Who is the most underrecognized player?
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[/TBODY]I disagree with these results. Ron Francis wasn't underrated. In fact, in some circles he's become overrated because he was the 4th highest-scoring player of all-time (a good thing, of course, but it was mostly because he played for a long time, much of which was during the high-scoring eighties and early nineties, and most of his best years were with Lemieux and/or Jagr). The answer to this question probably should have been someone who played prior to WWII (Marty Barry would be a good pick).
The fans overwhelmingly voted Francis first (with more than half the votes). Fuhr, Lemaire, Hunter and Goring rounded out the top five. How likely is it that all of the most underrated players of all time played during the 1980s?
It's too bad there wasn't a "most overrated" category - that would have been interesting. Given the timing, I wonder if Jagr (undeservedly) would have won.
Who is the greatest goal-scorer ever?
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[/TBODY]I really disagree with these results. In fact, the top two choices (who got nearly 60% of the votes) have no valid case, in my opinion, for greatest goal-scorer. The argument for Bossy, predictably, is primarily goals per game. They even talk about how he would have scored many more goals had he not gotten injured - without seeming to understand that his per-game average would have dropped as 1) he got older and 2) league-wide scoring dropped. They also noted that Bossy was consistent (which is true) and a clutch performer (also true) - but Bossy can't possibly be the best goal-scorer of all-time since he wasn't even the best goal-scorer of his own era.
I found it surprising that Hull (who was, at the time, the only player in history with seven goal-scoring titles), only got a single vote. How can they possibly rank Brett ahead of Bobby?
The fans selected Gretzky as the greatest goal-scorer, followed by Bossy, Brett Hull, Richard, and Lemieux.
What is the best hockey nation of all-time?
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[/TBODY]Almost unanimous. The fans also voted Canada first by an overwhelming margin (89%). The remainder was split between the US, Russia, Sweden and the Czech Republic.
Who is the greatest captain of all-time?
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[/TBODY]Seven players received one vote each - Slava Fetisov, Scott Stevens, Mario Lemieux, Larry Robinson, Bryan Trottier, Phil Esposito, and Bob Gainey.
Remember, this was after the Vancouver debacle - and Messier still ranks first. Again, he's become underrated on HFBoards.
The fans voted Yzerman first, followed by Messier. Well behind were Beliveau, Clarke, and Stevens.
Which international team was the best?
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[/TBODY]Note that the Soviets have two of the top three positions (and their top two teams have more combined votes than Canada's top two teams).
The fan vote was pretty similar, but they had Canada's 2002 Olympic team in third. Recency bias?
Who is the most notorious on-ice villain?
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[/TBODY]The others (with one vote each) were Chris Chelios, Steve Durbano, Bryan Marchment, Marty McSorley, Bob Probert, Eddie Shack, Esa Tikkanen, and Darcy Tucker.
Good choices all around, but only one (Shore) who predates the Original Six era. Sprague Cleghorn deserved at least a few votes.
The fans had Lemieux, Williams, Schultz, Shore and Lindsay in the top five.
Who is the greatest coach of all-time?
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[/TBODY]I knew Bowman was going to win, but I didn't think it would have been by such a decisive margin.
The fans also voted overwhelmingly for Bowman (82%), but others included Toe Blake, Al Arbour, Bob Johnson, and Dick Irvin.
Who is the best skater ever?
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[/TBODY]Solid choices all around. The fan vote produced Orr (decisively first), Coffey, Lafleur, Gartner and Cournoyer.
Who is the greatest passer of all-time?
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[/TBODY]This one probably should have been unanimous. There's no player in hockey history that has a legitimate argument for being a better playmaker.
Yes, someone actually voted for Sergei Zubov here. Your guess is as good as mine.
The voted Gretzky first (60%), which isn't nearly as high as it should have been. Oates and Lemieux both had double-digit support, while Francis and Gilmour rounded out the top five.
It's interesting how much farther back this was compared to the best goal-scorer category. Not sure if that was simply a formatting decision, or if they were trying to tell us that they valued goal-scoring far more than playmaking.
Who is the best player not in the Hall?
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[/TBODY]The eleven players who earned one vote each were Guy Carbonneau, Wayne Cashman, Anatoli Firsov, Ivan Hlinka, Dale Hunter, Erich Kuhnackl, Steve Larmer, Mike Liut, Mark Messier, Dave Taylor, and Roger Vachon.
The top five players (everyone with three or more votes) were inducted in the Hall. The only other players listed above who got inducted were Messier (who probably only got one vote because my guess is he wasn't eligible at the time) and Vachon (a somewhat surprising induction in 2016 - most of us thought his shipped had sailed).
Note that Dick Duff (who is a better than many give him credit for, but was nonetheless considered a shocking selection in 2006) didn't receive a single vote.
The fans voted overwhelmingly for Neely (62%). Ciccarelli, Anderson, Howe and Chabot rounded out the top five. It's true that Neely is a borderline candidate, and his selection gets criticzed a lot nowadays - but there definitely was demand both "establishment" and fan support for him prior to his induction.
Which player has most changed the game?
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[/TBODY]All are good choices, but I would have thought that Roy's massive impact on goaltending would have warranted more votes.
The fans voted overwhelmingly for Gretzy and Orr (nearly 80% of the combined votes), with Roy, Fetisov, and Plante trailing.
The magazine also asked a number of questions about historical events and the state of the game:
Here are several of the categories, with some commentary added:
Who is the best player of all-time?
| Wayne Gretzky | 15 |
| Gordie Howe | 13 |
| Bobby Orr | 11 |
| Bryan Trottier | 1 |
| Peter Forsberg | 1 |
It's unjustifiable for Trottier and Forsberg (as great as they were) to have received even a single vote.
The fan vote had Gretzky solidly in first, Orr second, then a bit of a gap. Howe was third, then Lemieux fourth. After, Richard was a distant fifth.
Who is the best individual talent of all time?
| Mario Lemieux | 19 |
| Wayne Gretzky | 16 |
| Bobby Orr | 6 |
Interestingly, the fan vote had Gretzky decisively in first. Lemieux and Orr were next. Very far behind ranked Pavel Bure and Denis Savard.
What was the best dynasty of all-time?
| Montreal - 1970's | 18 |
| Edmonton | 9 |
| Montreal - 1950's | 8 |
| NY Islanders | 6 |
The fan vote was similar, except the Oilers and 1970s Canadiens were switched. The late 1940s Leafs were a distant 5th.
Who is the best goalie of all-time?
| Patrick Roy | 19 |
| Dominik Hasek | 7 |
| Terry Sawchuk | 5 |
| Jacques Plante | 3 |
| Martin Brodeur | 2 |
| Ken Dryden | 2 |
| Glenn Hall | 2 |
| Vladislav Tretiak | 1 |
Note that Sawchuk ranks ahead of Plante and Hall; I've written several times about how disappointing his numbers appear to have been from the mid fifties onward, but those who saw him generally seem to rank him as the best goalie of the Original Six era.
Roy dominated the fan selections (with nearly 58% of the vote). Far behind were Sawchuk, Hasek, Plante, and Hall.
Who is the clutch performer of all-time?
| Maurice Richard | 11 |
| Wayne Gretzky | 10 |
| Mark Messier | 8 |
| Glenn Anderson | 2 |
| Mario Lemieux | 2 |
| Mike Bossy | 1 |
| Guy Lafleur | 1 |
| Claude Lemieux | 1 |
| Adam Oates | 1 |
| Patrick Roy | 1 |
| Joe Sakic | 1 |
| Billy Smith | 1 |
| Steve Thomas | 1 |
Roy only getting a single vote was unexpected (though he and Smith were the only goalies to get any).
The fan vote was slanted towards the Oilers. Gretzky and Messier ranked first and second (accounting for nearly two-thirds of the votes). Richard was third, Claude (not Mario) Lemieux was fourth, and Anderson was fifth.
Who is the most underrecognized player?
| Ron Francis | 7 |
| Jacques Lemaire | 3 |
| Grant Fuhr | 2 |
| Shane Doan | 2 |
| 27 tied (not listed) | 1 |
The fans overwhelmingly voted Francis first (with more than half the votes). Fuhr, Lemaire, Hunter and Goring rounded out the top five. How likely is it that all of the most underrated players of all time played during the 1980s?
It's too bad there wasn't a "most overrated" category - that would have been interesting. Given the timing, I wonder if Jagr (undeservedly) would have won.
Who is the greatest goal-scorer ever?
| Mike Bossy | 16 |
| Brett Hull | 8 |
| Wayne Gretzky | 6 |
| Mario Lemieux | 5 |
| Maurice Richard | 4 |
| Bobby Hull | 1 |
| Phil Esposito | 1 |
I found it surprising that Hull (who was, at the time, the only player in history with seven goal-scoring titles), only got a single vote. How can they possibly rank Brett ahead of Bobby?
The fans selected Gretzky as the greatest goal-scorer, followed by Bossy, Brett Hull, Richard, and Lemieux.
What is the best hockey nation of all-time?
| Canada | 40 |
| Czech Republic | 1 |
Who is the greatest captain of all-time?
| Mark Messier | 19 |
| Jean Beliveau | 6 |
| Steve Yzerman | 5 |
| Bobby Clarke | 4 |
| Others | 7 |
Remember, this was after the Vancouver debacle - and Messier still ranks first. Again, he's become underrated on HFBoards.
The fans voted Yzerman first, followed by Messier. Well behind were Beliveau, Clarke, and Stevens.
Which international team was the best?
| Canada 1987 | 15 |
| Soviet Union 1981 | 10 |
| Soviet Union 1976 | 9 |
| Canada 1972 | 3 |
| USA 1980 | 2 |
| Canada 1976 | 1 |
The fan vote was pretty similar, but they had Canada's 2002 Olympic team in third. Recency bias?
Who is the most notorious on-ice villain?
| Claude Lemieux | 7 |
| Dave Schultz | 6 |
| Tiger Williams | 6 |
| Bobby Clarke | 3 |
| Tie Domi | 3 |
| Ted Lindsay | 3 |
| Ulf Samuelsson | 2 |
| Eddie Shore | 2 |
| Others | 8 |
Good choices all around, but only one (Shore) who predates the Original Six era. Sprague Cleghorn deserved at least a few votes.
The fans had Lemieux, Williams, Schultz, Shore and Lindsay in the top five.
Who is the greatest coach of all-time?
| Scott Bowman | 40 |
| Al Arbour | 1 |
The fans also voted overwhelmingly for Bowman (82%), but others included Toe Blake, Al Arbour, Bob Johnson, and Dick Irvin.
Who is the best skater ever?
| Paul Coffey | 19 |
| Bobby Orr | 10 |
| Mike Gartner | 3 |
| Yvan Cournoyer | 3 |
| Pavel Bure | 1 |
| Sergei Fedorov | 1 |
| Gordie Howe | 1 |
| Guy Lafleur | 1 |
Who is the greatest passer of all-time?
| Wayne Gretzky | 36 |
| Mario Lemieux | 2 |
| Adam Oates | 2 |
| Sergei Zubov | 1 |
Yes, someone actually voted for Sergei Zubov here. Your guess is as good as mine.
The voted Gretzky first (60%), which isn't nearly as high as it should have been. Oates and Lemieux both had double-digit support, while Francis and Gilmour rounded out the top five.
It's interesting how much farther back this was compared to the best goal-scorer category. Not sure if that was simply a formatting decision, or if they were trying to tell us that they valued goal-scoring far more than playmaking.
Who is the best player not in the Hall?
| Glenn Anderson | 7 |
| Cam Neely | 5 |
| Dino Ciccarelli | 4 |
| Valeri Kharlamov | 3 |
| Patrick Roy | 3 |
| Lorne Chabot | 2 |
| Bernie Nicholls | 2 |
| Others | 11 |
The top five players (everyone with three or more votes) were inducted in the Hall. The only other players listed above who got inducted were Messier (who probably only got one vote because my guess is he wasn't eligible at the time) and Vachon (a somewhat surprising induction in 2016 - most of us thought his shipped had sailed).
Note that Dick Duff (who is a better than many give him credit for, but was nonetheless considered a shocking selection in 2006) didn't receive a single vote.
The fans voted overwhelmingly for Neely (62%). Ciccarelli, Anderson, Howe and Chabot rounded out the top five. It's true that Neely is a borderline candidate, and his selection gets criticzed a lot nowadays - but there definitely was demand both "establishment" and fan support for him prior to his induction.
Which player has most changed the game?
| Bobby Orr | 21 |
| Wayne Gretzky | 13 |
| Slava Fetisov | 2 |
| Patrick Roy | 2 |
| Jacques Plante | 2 |
| Bobby Hull | 1 |
The fans voted overwhelmingly for Gretzy and Orr (nearly 80% of the combined votes), with Roy, Fetisov, and Plante trailing.
The magazine also asked a number of questions about historical events and the state of the game:
- Regarding whether Brett Hull's 1999 Stanley Cup winning goal should have counted, the consensus was "no" both among writers (73%) and fans (66%). Count me in the "no" category too - Hull's goal clearly shouldn't have been allowed, based on the rules in effect at that time. Still, Dallas most likely would have won the Cup anyway.
- The 1994 SCF between the NY Rangers and Vancouver Canucks was named the best final of all-time. The other SCF series receiving multiple votes were 1971 (Montreal vs. Chicago), 1987 (Edmonton vs. Philadelphia) and 1989 (Calgary vs. Montreal). All of the series selected were from 1950 to 1994, which probably tells you something about the age of the writers.
- There were two separate questions on the size of the NHL. The first asked when expansion should have stopped. The consensus was at 21 teams (chosen by 59% of writers and 63% of fans). The "fine the way it is" category was chosen by just 17% of writers, but 29% of fans.
- The second question asked whether the NHL should contract. Again, a clear majority of both groups said "yes" (73% of writers, 62% of fans).
- Both groups overwhelmingly believed that fighting should be part of the game (78% of writers, 90% of fans).
- Both groups also thought that the one referee system was preferable to two, but this was less decisive (61% of writers, 57% of fans).
- There was also a consensus that wood sticks were better than composite (78% of writers, 64% of fans).
- One of the questions pertains to shootouts. This topic still annoys me. I never understood what was "wrong" with a tie game, nor did I understand why an individual skills competition should decide a team game. (Should the NBA use a slam dunk contest to decide tie games, or should the MLB use a home run derby)? This position was shared by the majority of writers (63%) and fans (59%).
- It seemed obvious that some changes were coming. No-touch icing was preferred by a clear majority of writers (80%) and fans (73%). Similarly, both groups preferred two-line passing (63% of writers, 63% of fans).
- There was a split on the question of what ice size should be used. A narrow majority (52%) of fans preferred international, but the writers wanted to keep it as is (56%).
- There was an interesting split on the question about whether goalies should wear smaller equipment. The writers overwhelmingly preferred that (98% - all but one voted "yes"), but only 73% of fans agreed (still a clear majority, but not as strong).
- The closest we had to unanimity in both groups was on the question of the number of playoff teams. Both groups said that it should be kept at sixteen (93% of writers, 95% of fans).
- There was a consensus that suspensions should be based on intent rather than injury (70% of writers, 69% of fans).
- Both groups wanted the NHL to be at the Olympics (78% of writers, 70% of fans). I would have expected the results to be even higher. I missed Olympics this year.
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