Line Combos: This team won't be weaklings.

[Pookie]

It's about recognizing the early signs of a trend.

… Yes, in the Western Conference a number of teams are 'keeping up with the Jones'' by bringing in at least one tough guy, but the current top teams such as Chicago and Tampa are going for four possession lines that can play.

I hope this is an oversight on your part and you aren't part of the EA Sports Generation that believes "Possession" is the only way to play the game philosophy?

With TV time outs, the value of "rolling 4 lines" is less important in today's cap world which sees stars earning big dollars. You want your Crosbys and Ovechkins and superstars out there as long as you can.

Speaking of Tampa and 4 possession lines is funny. They had a decent "Corsi" year last year but their 5 year trend is middle of the pack (12th).

It also ignores the (in)famous example from Tampa vs Philly in 2011 in which there was a delay of game scenario in which the Flyers just out waited their trap. Tampa employs a 1-3-1 style system for many of their games.




As for Chicago going the 4 possession lines that can play, let's chat about them shall we? They are a famous example used by the non-fighting camp as a sign of skill over goon. 3 Cups in a short span of time. Yet, as I said to Nithoniniel on page 5, the 2009-2010 Cup Champion Chicago Blackhawks had Ben Eager with 120 PIMS…. the 2012-13 Cup Champions had a roster with Bollig and Carcillo. This year's champion team started with Carcillo and traded him. I'd say that those players would be considered physical, no?

In 2010/11 there were 43 players with 100+ penalty minutes. Last year there were 16. I'm not saying the role is already extinct - NHL execs often cling to tradition and take a long time to change (see: analytics).

It's a pendulum. 276 players fought last year. The year you reference there were 348. Down? Sure. But in 2005-06 there were also 276 players that fought. Ups and downs my friend.

We could say that the number of players that fought in 2005-2006 is the same as it was a decade later in 2015. That is hardly a declining trend.

I for one, however, am glad that the Leafs are finally AHEAD of trends rather than lagging behind them.

Ahead of the trend? Ok. I'd like one of whatever you are having

 

[LeafingTheWay]

I hope this is an oversight on your part and you aren't part of the EA Sports Generation that believes "Possession" is the only way to play the game philosophy?

With TV time outs, the value of "rolling 4 lines" is less important in today's cap world which sees stars earning big dollars. You want your Crosbys and Ovechkins and superstars out there as long as you can.

The Law of Diminishing Returns even applies in hockey. Some extrordinary players can handle excessive minutes, while the majority can't. Kessel, JVR and Phaneuf for example couldn't handle the excessive minutes they received during their playoff-run season. It's more about using them correctly as opposed to using them all the time. If you can have a 4th line that shuts down the opposing teams 1st line or 2nd line. Then that means you have your 1st three top lines at an advantage. Thus meaning your Kessels, Ovechkins, Crosbys can play longer against weaker competition.

Tampa Bay for example used the 4 line system effeciently, in which it saw Stamkos not being used excessively. The Cooper era is a genius era, his model is an ideal model to follow. You want to maximize your stars usage, not give him unlimited ice time.

Another example would be Pittsburgh. You have two lines that are extremely great. But then you have a 3rd line that struggles and a 4th line that is terrible. They don't use a 4-line system at all, but rather they use a 3-line system in which the first two are heavily counted upon. While some players like Toews don't allow the stress to get to them, others aren't us lucky imo. The Bollig, Carcillo, etc line all had 4th liners that could at least play well against other 4th lines. Pittsburgh didn't.

Philly, Boston, LA, NYI and Chicago all had 3 lines that were above-average. Thus, the need for a 4th line that can shut-down and also provide strong play wasn't needed as much. They could use a tough-guy line.

Philly: Fedetenko-Couturier-Read Wellwood-Talbot-Rinaldo
Boston: Soderberg-Kelly-Seguin Paille-Peverely-Thornton
LA: King-Stoll-Lewis Gagner-Fraser-Nolan
etc.

If we have 3 above average lines, I'm fine with an energy 4th line.

If we had a line like: Komarov-McClement-Orr back in the day WITH 3 strong lines above it, I would have loved it. But that's simply not the case.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

As for Chicago going the 4 possession lines that can play, let's chat about them shall we? They are a famous example used by the non-fighting camp as a sign of skill over goon. 3 Cups in a short span of time. Yet, as I said to Nithoniniel on page 5, the 2009-2010 Cup Champion Chicago Blackhawks had Ben Eager with 120 PIMS…. the 2012-13 Cup Champions had a roster with Bollig and Carcillo. This year's champion team started with Carcillo and traded him. I'd say that those players would be considered physical, no?

2009-2010 Chicago:
Ladd-Bolland-Versteeg
Eager-Madden-Burish
Chicago had the best top-9 in the league and the best defense, having a 4th line like that with limited time doesn't exactly take away from their glory.

Even Philly in 2009-2010 had JVR-Giroux-Asham as their 3rd line, followed by a goon line.

2013 Chicago:
Sharp-Kruger-Smith
Bollig-Hanzus-Versteeg

Same concept.

 

[Pookie]

2009-2010 Chicago:
Ladd-Bolland-Versteeg
Eager-Madden-Burish
Chicago had the best top-9 in the league and the best defense, having a 4th line like that with limited time doesn't exactly take away from their glory.

Even Philly in 2009-2010 had JVR-Giroux-Asham as their 3rd line, followed by a goon line.

2013 Chicago:
Sharp-Kruger-Smith
Bollig-Hanzus-Versteeg

Same concept.

All that is fine. It speaks to my point about "rolling 4 lines" not being the absolute ideal in this era of TV timeouts.

And it clearly speaks to the notion that Chicago achieved its past success without "enforcement" as being a myth. Eager, Bollig, Carcillo…

 

[StuckOutHere]

My lineup as of today:

Lupul-Kadri-Paranteau
JVR-Bozak-Winnik
Matthias-Holland-Arcobello
Komarov-Spaling-Beck
Panik


Rielly-Phanuef
Gardiner-Polak
Marincin-Harrington/Percy/Loov
Robidas, Hunwick

Bernier
Reimer

Swap Panik for Arcobello/Winnik to 3RW and you've pretty much got my lineup.

 

[LMFAO]

JVR-Bozak-Paranteau
Matthias-Kadri-Lupul
Komarov-Spalling-Winnik
Beck-Holland-Panik

 

[senor martinez]

JVR-Bozak-Paranteau
Matthias-Kadri-Lupul
Komarov-Spalling-Winnik
Beck-Holland-Panik

I don't think sir LouLam the legend will keep this one. Until the first nhl game is played, he'll trade somebody off.

Bozak? Lupul? Holland? Somebody is on the line and Lou wants to get his first dirt off. He is that experienced knowing that he wants to do an impact early on. Some move and a player he doesn't like. He wants to do that I'm sure and he also knows that our team is pure puke and has been the couple seasons. So that's kinda cool.

 

[Pyrophorus]

JVR-Bozak-Paranteau
Matthias-Kadri-Lupul
Komarov-Spalling-Winnik
Beck-Holland-Panik

I'll try:

JVR-Kadri-Lupul
Matthias-Bozak-Arcobello
Beck-Holland-Panik
Komarov-Spaling-Winnik
PAP

Rielly-Gardiner
Phaneuf-Polak
Marincin-Hunwick
Robidas

For the 2nd PP, we might need a forward to man the point, like Connolly did in Buffalo or Nylander in the WJC

 

[Brock Radunske]

And yet there may well have never been a tough version of Gilmour without Wendel, or a tough version of Tucker without Domi/Belak/etc just like Kadri only really came out physically when we had a tough team.

And of course the team is soft. You call him naive and then come up with "oh the team might not be soft, wait and see"? is that a joke? they have rid every non-tiny tough player from the organization other than Phaneuf and Polak who both will likely be gone not too far down the road and who i'm sure would have been traded already if management got a decent offer. They couldn't dress a gritty roster even if they tried with the players they currently have in the organization.

And again, anti-fighting people constantly create blatant false dilemmas of "it's either John Scott or no fighting". Teams are perfectly capable of having gritty players who can drop the gloves that can put up a similar amount, or possibly even more points than the average 4th liner.

Truth. I would have felt comfortable kicking a grizzly in the nuts if Wendel had my back while in his prime.

 

[TheKingSlayer]

I'll try:

JVR-Kadri-Lupul
Matthias-Bozak-Arcobello
Beck-Holland-Panik
Komarov-Spaling-Winnik
PAP

Rielly-Gardiner
Phaneuf-Polak
Marincin-Hunwick
Robidas

For the 2nd PP, we might need a forward to man the point, like Connolly did in Buffalo or Nylander in the WJC

Marincin has some experience manning the point on the power play in junior. I would like for him to get some experience there. Possibly a Reilly-Phaneuf PP1 and Gardiner-Marincin PP2.

Also, I believe that Winnik will play with Kadri and whoever else is on his wings. They played very well together last year IMO.

 

[PuckMagi]

Lupul - Kadri - Marner
JVR - Nylander - Holland
Matthias - Bozak - Winnik
Komorov - Spaling - Frattin

extra: PAP, Panik, Arcobello, Beck, etc.

Gardiner - Phaneuf
Rielly - Polak
Marincin - Robidas
Hunwick

 

[HellasLEAF]

I don't understand this thread, this team does not have the characteristics of a tough team at all.

Nor does the prospect system.

We are building like the Wings it seams.

 

[mallory67]

Lupul - Kadri - Marner
JVR - Nylander - Holland
Matthias - Bozak - Winnik
Komorov - Spaling - Frattin

extra: PAP, Panik, Arcobello, Beck, etc.

Gardiner - Phaneuf
Rielly - Polak
Marincin - Robidas
Hunwick

Who plays LW on the first line after Oct 10?
You know ... when Lupul gets injured.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Who plays LW on the first line after Oct 10?
You know ... when Lupul gets injured.

JVR moves up a line
and Arcobello/Panik/PAP goes in

 

[Duke16]

I don't know if Marner will get any games this year, but I could for sure see Nylander getting 9 games and maybe sticking in the NHL, he'll have to be really good though or he's better off with the Marlies.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I don't understand this thread, this team does not have the characteristics of a tough team at all.

Nor does the prospect system.

We are building like the Wings it seams.

Tough has been taken out of context intentionally. Not my fault. I already qualified the terminology several times. Tough in this threads context means not a weak team overall.

Rough i would think would indicate fighters and physical play i would think.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

True but what 4th line actually plays against top lines? /QUOTE]

Some teams have little that separates a 4th from a 3rd line. 4th/3rd lines are often energy lines that are used by the coach strategically to change the momentum in the game.

I've seen many coaches throw out their 3rd/4th line that they have confidence in to change the games momentum, even if that meant throwing them out against the top line. That 4th/3rd can be a coaches most consistent line.

 

[Purity*]

Lupul - Kadri - Marner
JVR - Nylander - Holland
Matthias - Bozak - Winnik
Komorov - Spaling - Frattin

extra: PAP, Panik, Arcobello, Beck, etc.

Gardiner - Phaneuf
Rielly - Polak
Marincin - Robidas
Hunwick

Marner won't be on the team and it's pretty up in the air about Nylander. Lupul also gets hurt all the time. We also won't have Kessel to elevate JVR and Bozak's numbers.

Subract all those, and that is an incredibly ugly-looking lineup. The forward group will look even worse than the defense, and the defense is TERRIBLE.


It'll be a comfortable finish in the bottom-3, no doubt about it.

 

[LeafGrief]

JVR - Kadri - PAP
Lupul - Holland - Winnik
Matthias - Bozak - Komorov
Beck - Spaling - Panik

Arcobello

Panik moves up the lineup for injuries. Hopefully we see a few guys like PAP and Matthias take some big roles and we can flip them for 2nd's.

 

[TMLegend]

Marner won't be on the team and it's pretty up in the air about Nylander. Lupul also gets hurt all the time. We also won't have Kessel to elevate JVR and Bozak's numbers.

Subract all those, and that is an incredibly ugly-looking lineup. The forward group will look even worse than the defense, and the defense is TERRIBLE.


It'll be a comfortable finish in the bottom-3, no doubt about it.

I'd bet money that this team won't be bottom 3. The entire team had down years last year, the team won one road game in all of 2015 against two injured goaltenders. It's impossible for us to be as bad as we were last year, no matter what anyone says. There's also some solid depth up front andH Hunwick will help solidfy the bottom pair. Bottom 10? Probably. Bottom 3? Not a chance in ****

 

[Purity*]

I'd bet money that this team won't be bottom 3. The entire team had down years last year, the team won one road game in all of 2015 against two injured goaltenders. It's impossible for us to be as bad as we were last year, no matter what anyone says. There's also some solid depth up front andH Hunwick will help solidfy the bottom pair. Bottom 10? Probably. Bottom 3? Not a chance in ****

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Either way, it will be interesting to see how this team reacts with having Babcock as a coach. I guess Babcock did coach a Wings team into the playoffs with Both Datsyuk and Zetterberg injured 2 years ago.

 

[Menzinger]

I'd bet money that this team won't be bottom 3. The entire team had down years last year, the team won one road game in all of 2015 against two injured goaltenders. It's impossible for us to be as bad as we were last year, no matter what anyone says. There's also some solid depth up front andH Hunwick will help solidfy the bottom pair. Bottom 10? Probably. Bottom 3? Not a chance in ****

The Leafs have lost skill, and other teams have made decent improvements. Not to mention, Dion may get moved creating a large whole on defence, and if the newly signed free agents perform well, they will be sold for picks by the trade deadline - which will likely cause the team to have a putrid final stretch of the season.

If Babcock manages to milk the team for everything it's worth, they might end up 8-10th last but I'm not so sure this will even happen. I don't think a bottom 5 finish is out of the question, I'm actually expecting It.

 

[namttebih]

JVR Kadri PAP
Lupul Holland Panik
Matthias Bozak Arcobello
Winnik Spalling Komorov

All 6 guys in the bottom 6 can play centre.

 

[Nithoniniel]

That fourth line could make a case for being the best in the league. We've got depth.

 

[namttebih]

That fourth line could make a case for being the best in the league. We've got depth.

They would definitely be a pain in the ass to play against. The funny thing is that they would be the second most expensive line only barely beat out by the first.

Edit: Not actually correct. But all four lines would be within a couple million of each other.