Things need to change, but what?

[thewave]

Troubleshooting a NHL teams woes.

It would appear to me that we have come to point in the road where everyone is divided, unsure, confused and searching for the reasons why a team has been able to perform is unable to any longer. It's very easy to get caught up in a cycle of laying blame, it's concerning though that the blame changes from day to day. As fans it would appear that we are without the proper information to determine what is wrong, so lets concentrate on what we do know and explore the real reasons why we are not performing.

1. We know that this "core" has been relatively successful in a shortened season.

2. We know that during the period of success we were playing a hard hitting gritty style.

3. We know that we were a reasonably efficient possession team

4. I can say without hesitation that this team has played it's best off the rush and utilizing the short pass.

5. There have been personnel changes

Now that those things are out of the way and we know some of the history lets find the exact point at which this team started taking a step back and losing.

For me this happened at or shortly thereafter Kadri was compared to, none other than Dougie. At this point there was a decline in overall team performance and Kadri fell into a slump. This was not long after his promotion to 2nd line. I am going to say this was the first woe and/or indicator, the point where certain Leaf players seemingly had a falling out with Randy but we kept composure as a whole and made the playoffs.

The next glaringly obvious woe can be pointed at Game 7 where there was a complete breakdown in the play and the coaching by the team. A traumatic loss, one that a cornerstone of this team described as haunting.

Next up, the dismissal and removal of the so called weak links and subsequent upgrades. The additions of Bernier Bolland Clarkson and Raymond have never truly raised the bar for this team. We have been being outplayed all season long and that includes the time we did not have injuries. We thrived because we had a one shot offence that seemingly could score at will coupled with record setting pace goaltending. So lets strike the Bolland factor from the equation, he is a good player and certainly helps.

Randy's fascination with AHL level performances and talent. We all know this from Holzer etc so it's a skip for me here. We know.

Constant meaningless line changes. It appears Randy is stuck in a cycle of rapid illogical line changes and is unwilling to stick with anything below the top line.

The dump in to nobody in particular. We do not give chase or cycle, this team does not and can not play this game and never has. Lets go back to last year, we hardly played this style of game, announcers and people on the panel routinely pointed out we are our best utilizing the short pass and entering a zone with speed.

Goaltending, the preference of one over the other and the expression on Reimer said it all. We created a problem, correction, Nonis created a problem, play from both tenders declined leading up to that point.

The team mailed it in with the tenders and can not perform the simplest of tasks, play the game they have studied and loved for thousands of hours and mastered.

In summary, I believe this team is being mismanaged at top, the coaching can not identify or fix the problems and have been rendered passengers on an out of control ship to nowhere. these problems are so far reaching and can not certainly not, be fixed by what is in place organizationally. These players need at the very least a sports psychologist, an upbeat positive coach to get them back on track.

Pretty much what I am saying is this team and organization is having a catastrophic meltdown and they are all passengers until a leader steps up and says enough and makes the changes needed. Nonis is dropping the ball as is Carlyle and so the team followed suit.

My 2nd ever thread, TY for reading.

Click to read more...

 

[Durkin67]

It would appear to me that we have come to point in the road where everyone is divided, unsure, confused and searching for the reasons why a team has been able to perform is unable to any longer. It's very easy to get caught up in a cycle of laying blame, it's concerning though that the blame changes from day to day. As fans it would appear that we are without the proper information to determine what is wrong, so lets concentrate on what we do know and explore the real reasons why we are not performing.

1. We know that this "core" has been relatively successful in a shortened season.

2. We know that during the period of success we were playing a hard hitting gritty style.

3. We know that we were a reasonably efficient possession team

4. I can say without hesitation that this team has played it's best off the rush and utilizing the short pass.

5. There have been personnel changes

Now that those things are out of the way and we know some of the history lets find the exact point at which this team started taking a step back and losing.

For me this happened at or shortly thereafter Kadri was compared to, none other than Dougie. At this point there was a decline in overall team performance and Kadri fell into a slump. This was not long after his promotion to 2nd line. I am going to say this was the first woe and/or indicator, the point where certain Leaf players seemingly had a falling out with Randy but we kept composure as a whole and made the playoffs.

The next glaringly obvious woe can be pointed at Game 7 where there was a complete breakdown in the play and the coaching by the team. A traumatic loss, one that a cornerstone of this team described as haunting.

Next up, the dismissal and removal of the so called weak links and subsequent upgrades. The additions of Bernier Bolland Clarkson and Raymond have never truly raised the bar for this team. We have been being outplayed all season long and that includes the time we did not have injuries. We thrived because we had a one shot offence that seemingly could score at will coupled with record setting pace goaltending. So lets strike the Bolland factor from the equation, he is a good player and certainly helps.

Randy's fascination with AHL level performances and talent. We all know this from Holzer etc so it's a skip for me here. We know.

Constant meaningless line changes. It appears Randy is stuck in a cycle of rapid illogical line changes and is unwilling to stick with anything below the top line.

The dump in to nobody in particular. We do not give chase or cycle, this team does not and can not play this game and never has. Lets go back to last year, we hardly played this style of game, announcers and people on the panel routinely pointed out we are our best utilizing the short pass and entering a zone with speed.

Goaltending, the preference of one over the other and the expression on Reimer said it all. We created a problem, correction, Nonis created a problem, play from both tenders declined leading up to that point.

The team mailed it in with the tenders and can not perform the simplest of tasks, play the game they have studied and loved for thousands of hours and mastered.

In summary, I believe this team is being mismanaged at top, the coaching can not identify or fix the problems and have been rendered passengers on an out of control ship to nowhere. these problems are so far reaching and can not certainly not, be fixed by what is in place organizationally. These players need at the very least a sports psychologist, an upbeat positive coach to get them back on track.

Pretty much what I am saying is this team and organization is having a catastrophic meltdown and they are all passengers until a leader steps up and says enough and makes the changes needed. Nonis is dropping the ball as is Carlyle and so the team followed suit.

My 2nd ever thread, TY for reading.

Nobody within the organization believes scoring off the rush a s a primary means of winning is sustainable. If you cant grind it out, you cant maintain success.

Thats the sole reason everyone from Nonis on down wants them to learn to create Offensive zone time. You do that by playing a more robust, committed, and markedly aggressive style. You forecheck, you win board battles and you fight for real estate out front.

We arent winning because we arent committed enough to those fundamentals. They want a handful of star players to outscore the opposition while the goalies stand on their heads 9 months a year.

The disconnect is with the level of buy in. The strategy makes sense. Playoffs are a war of attrition, not an all star game type display of highlight reel plays. You out work your opponent, keep your feet moving, and win the small battles, and exploit holes.

The Leafs are INCAPABLE of adequately pressuring any opponent and in the odd occurrence where they compile a lead, they take their foot off the gas and coast until they crack under the pressure.

This is a personnel issue. No consistent forecheck, no commitment to hustle. It's pathetic, and for me, that spells significant personnel shakeups.

If I'm Nonis, I would have Dion and Carlyle in my office and we'd go through the entire roster evaluating who is earning their minutes and who is on their way to the airport.

Here's my list of potential pink slips:

1. Franson
2. Kadri
3. Reimer
4. Gunnarsson
5. Kulemin
6. Gardiner

Franny will want more than he's worth next year, and his decision making right now is pathetic. Frequently getting caught up ice and out of position, turns the puck over...

Kadri is skilled but inconsistent. If not scoring, he should be banging bodies, drawing penalties and creating space for line mates. I dont see any desperation in his game.

Reimer is done and dusted. Trade him before his value plummets. Shame, because great teammate and good goalie, but thats the reality of it.

Gunnarsson just doesnt do enough of any one thing to be a top pairing guy. Detroit would be happy to have him.

Kulemin is not coming back. Leverage that asset and bring Komarov back after Sochi, or promote internally.

Gardiner has the potential to be a Brian Leetch type player. Poise, wheels, puck skills. What he lacks for me is decision making when pressured. Yes, that's a maturity thing. If I could trade him for either an impact forward who can commit to physical, offensive oriented hockey, I'd thank him wholeheartedly and drive him to the airport.

Now, a short list of potentially available pieces who play a more hostile, impactful brand of hockey:

1. Ryan O' Reilly
2. Filip Forsberg
3. Bogosian
4. Crombeen
5. Darnell Nurse


I dont believe any of those players are out of reach, and all of them can make an impact either immediately, or soon thereafter. They all play the type of hockey that fits with the blue print.

It's either trade and tweak personnel, or ditch the coach and let them play run and gun until they get beaten in the first round within four games.

I'll choose the former.

 

[thewave]

Great post Durkin, I agree with you. I am all for personnel changes as well full agree with you that possession off the rush is essential.

This teams dumps the puck in with no compete thereafter. Possession is lost after that initial dump in, why, it's gotta be 8 of 10 times. At that point who cares if you win 40% or 60% off the dot even.

 

[yideboit]

There are a few threads on this page, but frankly, I don't see any that just promote an open discussion of what needs to change.

There's the individual ones like firing randy, or who competes, or player discussions... but nothing really firm in what we think needs to change as a whole!

So here it is for me.

I think that Randy is fine for the most part as a coach. He turned this ship around once and can do it again. The problem I have (and as far as I know this is mostly in his control), is the players he's dressing night in-night out.

Orr and McClaren aren't fighting. That much is obvious. What isn't is why... Are they injured? Do they not want to risk injury? Are others simply not giving in and playing "their game" this year? Whatever the case, they currently have no place on the roster. If they have any value, a trade would be in order. If not waived and sent to minors would be the next step (I know this isn't Randy, but if he told Nonis he needs their spots, Nonis would comply would he not?).

After that we move to Ranger. How is he still playing? Does the team feel they owe him something? Do they still honestly believe in him being a better option then a Marlie like oh I don't know... Brennan??? How the F&*^ has Brennan not even been given a sniff? I'm not going to sit here and say he's the answer... because this problem is deeper than a player shuffle or two, but my god.. he leads the Marlies in points as a d-man! Ranger has been consistently bad and needs to be replaced.

Fraser has also been less effective and frankly, I'd do the same with him as I would with the above mentioned (trade if available, demote if not). Holzer should be given another look in my opinion.

Gunnarsson has been no where near the player he was the last few years as well, and I wouldn't be opposed to sending him down the depth chart a bit until he turns his game around. Putting him with Dion "just cause that's where he plays" isn't working. There are in fact other options (oddly enough) that might help change things around!

I would have sent Reilly down way before this point, but now that they've passed the year on pro contract and year before ufa games played mark, there's no point, and keeping him in the NHL isn't going to hurt his development any more than it already has. The biggest problem in keeping him up is getting him more ice time, which with this group on defense shouldn't be a huge issue.

I also am not sure why they haven't really tried putting Kessel back with Lupul. I know basically whenever they switch JVR, Lupul on and off that line, it seems to spark something for a while chemistry wise with those guys, but it's been a while since we saw Lupul and Kessel together, and I for one would like to see if they can start to turn things around.

So basically, the roster I would put out to start with (before trade deadline gets any closer!) would be:

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
JVR - Holland - Raymond
Kulemin - Kadri - Clarkson
Bodie - McClement - Abbott
extra: Ashton

Franson - Phaneuf
Gunnarsson - Reilly
Gleason - Brennan
extra: Holzer

I would also be an advocate of the following players being moved at the trade deadline:

Kadri, Kulemin, Bozak, Gunnarsson, Reimer

I would look mostly for futures, but if any established young roster forwards were available (lol) in a package deal I'd be in favour of that as well.

To sum it up, I think the changes start with our bottom 6 and bottom d-men. Then to follow it up, there are some players with value that should be looked at trading at the deadline, before their value is lower (or gone via ufa) in the off-season.

 

[CerebralDevil]

There are a few threads on this page, but frankly, I don't see any that just promote an open discussion of what needs to change.

There's the individual ones like firing randy, or who competes, or player discussions... but nothing really firm in what we think needs to change as a whole!

So here it is for me.

I think that Randy is fine for the most part as a coach. He turned this ship around once and can do it again. The problem I have (and as far as I know this is mostly in his control), is the players he's dressing night in-night out.

Orr and McClaren aren't fighting. That much is obvious. What isn't is why... Are they injured? Do they not want to risk injury? Are others simply not giving in and playing "their game" this year? Whatever the case, they currently have no place on the roster. If they have any value, a trade would be in order. If not waived and sent to minors would be the next step (I know this isn't Randy, but if he told Nonis he needs their spots, Nonis would comply would he not?).

After that we move to Ranger. How is he still playing? Does the team feel they owe him something? Do they still honestly believe in him being a better option then a Marlie like oh I don't know... Brennan??? How the F&*^ has Brennan not even been given a sniff? I'm not going to sit here and say he's the answer... because this problem is deeper than a player shuffle or two, but my god.. he leads the Marlies in points as a d-man! Ranger has been consistently bad and needs to be replaced.

Fraser has also been less effective and frankly, I'd do the same with him as I would with the above mentioned (trade if available, demote if not). Holzer should be given another look in my opinion.

Gunnarsson has been no where near the player he was the last few years as well, and I wouldn't be opposed to sending him down the depth chart a bit until he turns his game around. Putting him with Dion "just cause that's where he plays" isn't working. There are in fact other options (oddly enough) that might help change things around!

I would have sent Reilly down way before this point, but now that they've passed the year on pro contract and year before ufa games played mark, there's no point, and keeping him in the NHL isn't going to hurt his development any more than it already has. The biggest problem in keeping him up is getting him more ice time, which with this group on defense shouldn't be a huge issue.

I also am not sure why they haven't really tried putting Kessel back with Lupul. I know basically whenever they switch JVR, Lupul on and off that line, it seems to spark something for a while chemistry wise with those guys, but it's been a while since we saw Lupul and Kessel together, and I for one would like to see if they can start to turn things around.

So basically, the roster I would put out to start with (before trade deadline gets any closer!) would be:

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
JVR - Holland - Raymond
Kulemin - Kadri - Clarkson
Bodie - McClement - Abbott
extra: Ashton

Franson - Phaneuf
Gunnarsson - Reilly
Gleason - Brennan
extra: Holzer

I would also be an advocate of the following players being moved at the trade deadline:

Kadri, Kulemin, Bozak, Gunnarsson, Reimer

I would look mostly for futures, but if any established young roster forwards were available (lol) in a package deal I'd be in favour of that as well.

To sum it up, I think the changes start with our bottom 6 and bottom d-men. Then to follow it up, there are some players with value that should be looked at trading at the deadline, before their value is lower (or gone via ufa) in the off-season.

I disagree with you big time here. Franson is the worst defense man I have seen since,........ well since Lebda or Komiserak

 

[ACC1224]

The real question is, why is this OT?

 

[yideboit]

The real question is, why is this OT?

lol sorry

 

[ACC1224]

lol sorry

No worries, just struck me as odd.

 

[Penalty Kill Icing*]

Thing is, if we don't change anything, we have a genuine shot at getting McDavid. It will be extremely painful to watch lose leafs night in, night out. But at least we are getting used to it. We have least ROW since start of November in the NHL. If they somehow find a way to not get that loser point (agiain, getting better at it in last 3 games), then we'd be a legit contender for McDavid by end of next season.

 

[Trapper]

All I know is the fans on this board shouldn't be called out for wanting a proper full rebuild. It gets laughed at or shot down.
I have been asking since 2008. When all other things have been tried since that time, why wouldn't you try the one thing you haven't for success.
However, if the majority of people on here think that just a coaching change or trade of 1/2 players is what turns us into a contender in the next 3-5 years, ok I'm all for it.
We will do it your way, like management.
I will be the 1st to admit I'm wrong.
But if I have to ask for a rebuild again in 3 years........

 

[yideboit]

I disagree with you big time here. Franson is the worst defense man I have seen since,........ well since Lebda or Komiserak

I disagree on your franson assessment! But, what would you do with our pairings?

 

[pooleboy]

the problem: not doing a proper rebuild, keeping players or bringing in players to compete when all we needed was to lose games. trade everyone for picks at the deadline thats a UFA, but we need depth for the playoffs... its Pejorative Slured.

i for one was a poster who was in full tank mode and sad that we never actually went full tank mode.

 

[yideboit]

Everyone needs to realize that full tank and rebuild is not a sure thing...

Take a look out west if you think it is!

 

[ACC1224]

Everyone needs to realize that full tank and rebuild is not a sure thing...

Take a look out west if you think it is!

Irrelevent. The Leafs will never choose that path.

 

[The Podium]

addition by subtraction get rid of ranger Franson and fraser and we are instantly better

 

[The Podium]

Everyone needs to realize that full tank and rebuild is not a sure thing...

Take a look out west if you think it is!

Columbus, Florida, Edmonton, islanders, Winnipeg/Atlanta

 

[Peace Frog]

Yeah, I would have loved to see the Leafs go for the full rebuild too. It would have been exciting to have been able to draft potential franchise players. Oh well, we're Leafs fans... the cross we have to bear.

 

[Diatomic]

Thing is, if we don't change anything, we have a genuine shot at getting McDavid. It will be extremely painful to watch lose leafs night in, night out. But at least we are getting used to it. We have least ROW since start of November in the NHL. If they somehow find a way to not get that loser point (agiain, getting better at it in last 3 games), then we'd be a legit contender for McDavid by end of next season.

Carlyle is a fantastic tanking coach

 

[Peace Frog]

addition by subtraction get rid of ranger fronton and fraser and we are instantly better

Yeah, we definitely have to get rid of him. Fronton has been.... wait, who??

 

[Mess]

addition by subtraction get rid of ranger fronton and fraser and we are instantly better

The Leafs are ranked 30th in the NHL giving up the most shots against and have the highest time of possession of their opponents in their own zone, and they also lead the NHL in give-aways.

So rebuilding the defense core would be a good idea you say to start fixing the problems. You might very well be on to something here as you listed 1/2 the defense there that needs to go.

The ones remaining are also struggling taking turns making mistakes and causing turnovers and blown coverage.

 

[Duke Silver]

After that we move to Ranger. How is he still playing? Does the team feel they owe him something? Do they still honestly believe in him being a better option then a Marlie like oh I don't know... Brennan??? How the F&*^ has Brennan not even been given a sniff? I'm not going to sit here and say he's the answer... because this problem is deeper than a player shuffle or two, but my god.. he leads the Marlies in points as a d-man! Ranger has been consistently bad and needs to be replaced.

Disagree. Firstly, Ranger played poorly at the beginning of the season. There's no arguing that. But he has dug himself a hole from which he cannot escape with some of you guys. Despite the fact his play has improved by leaps and bounds, he has been designated a scapegoat. Ever single little mistake just fuels the confirmation bias. He's doing what is expected of a #6 defenceman, and he's a far better option than Fraser in that spot.

Secondly, Brennan has one side to his game: offense. He's pretty inadequate defensively, so what is the point of injecting another offense-first defenceman into the mix when we have Gardiner, Rielly and Franson? I thought the issue here was defensive zone coverage and overall team toughness.

 

[Joey Hoser]

How come Leafs fans are constantly criticized for not acknowledging that their players are bad, and then when they say that players are bad they are accused of scapegoating?

Can't win as a Leafs fan.

 

[Peace Frog]

TBH, I think the eventual return of Bolland will make a big difference to this hockey club. That, and a trade or two could be all we need to get back on the right track.

 

[Duke Silver]

How come Leafs fans are constantly criticized for not acknowledging that their players are bad, and then when they say that players are bad they are accused of scapegoating?

Can't win as a Leafs fan.

What's with the generalizations? I said "some of you guys" but you decided to make this all-encompassing.

Besides, many Leafs fans are criticized for overhyping/overrating their players, not acknowledging they're bad. Portions of this fanbase are not shy to scream out who's bad. Just listen to the comments around you next time you're in the ACC.

You're being accused of scapegoating because you lack the ability to change your opinion on a player who has steadily improved since the beginning of the season.

 

[Joey Hoser]

You're being accused of scapegoating because you lack the ability to change your opinion on a player who has steadily improved since the beginning of the season.

I'm sorry, when did I do that?