Post-Game Talk: them vs us

[strungout]

2 things:

I keep hearing people say Laich is playing decently. Where, exactly, is that showing? He's got the lest point on the team for any regular, and is not a plus player.

I think the Cup can absolutely be won or lost due to Laich's contract (well, lost, in the Caps case) I couldn't disagree with you more. That's why I'm so vehement about this. Last year it didn't matter as much as I didn't see this team as Cup worthy. This year, I think it is. Save Laich's wasted salary slot (and to a lesser extent, MaJo's).

#4 ranked PK in the NHL.

Leading Caps forward in TOI SH per game with 2:01.

So...yeah.

 

[Raikkonen]

Well. I wanted to emphasize that I said he's been better lately but elected not to do so. Maybe we can agree to disagree on Laich?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

#4 ranked PK in the NHL.

Leading Caps forward in TOI SH per game with 2:01.

So...yeah.

Bam....

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

If the package includes Laich+Vrana/Bowey+picks it makes sense on a rebuilding team. Laich has no value but i would take him just for a top prospect and picks.

In no way do I see the Caps OVERPAYING to ditch Laich. Not at the cost of their top prospects.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

2 things:

I keep hearing people say Laich is playing decently. Where, exactly, is that showing? He's got the lest point on the team for any regular, and is not a plus player.

I think the Cup can absolutely be won or lost due to Laich's contract (well, lost, in the Caps case) I couldn't disagree with you more. That's why I'm so vehement about this. Last year it didn't matter as much as I didn't see this team as Cup worthy. This year, I think it is. Save Laich's wasted salary slot (and to a lesser extent, MaJo's).

Then we'll agree to disagree. It's a silly position IMO to say one player is going to lose you the Cup. In a team sport there are just too many other variables.

First they would need to dump Laich, THEN they would need to pull off the tough part, finding a capable and key player addition that would make an impact towards winning a Cup. Neither would be easy. IMO, it would be harder right now to find that player who would make a meaningful impact in winning a Cup. They would have to trade for him. Likely we're taking on someone else's headache. Offseason could be a different story as we saw with Oshie.

 

[HockeyTS32]

Bura has looked better over the last couple of games, but it seems like his shots get blocked an awful lot. He needs to get some cross-crease action in his game.

And that's absurd that Mojo got more ES TOI than the big guns. He's a huge liability right now.

Not sure I totally agree about Bura. He's looked slightly better the past few games, but still isn't ready for top 6 min in the show. Still gets pushed off the puck way too easily. Which is understandable, but the kid needs to bulk up if he wants to remain in the top 6. He also seems to be forcing passes in the offensive zone a few too many times for my liking. Rather than continuing a controlled cycle, he's been forcing the puck to the slot when opposing players are there or forcing passes to the points who are covered. He also needs to be better getting the puck out of the D zone.

Now to Mojo. Really don't understand the hate a lot of caps fans have for him. First of all I think the caps screwed his development a little bit. The caps seemed to put a little too much pressure on him when he was young by making him play in the top 6 when he wasn't quite ready, but that's besides the point. The kid has gotten slightly better every year he's been with the caps and still has more room to develop. I know a lot of people rag on him about not burying open netters, but what most fans don't see/understand is that he misses some of those chances because the puck is rolling on its side or he can't control the rebound before burying it (IE puck comes off the goalies pads to fast and goes by his skates on the rebound opportunity). IMO, he's really not having that bad of a season. Think he's got 8(?) points through 18 games, which isn't too bad. But to me he's doing a lot of good things this year that you don't see on the scoresheet. There are two big things I've been seeing this year that he hasn't done too much of in the regular season. First is he's been screening the tenders a lot more this year, which is one of the reasons why the PP was clicking a lot earlier in the season IMO. Second, he's been hitting a bit more than he has in seasons past. I do think he needs to shoot more like he did at the beginning of last season, as I feel like he's been trying to make that extra pass when he should just put it on the net and hope for a rebound.

Another thing most fans don't see is he is one of the only guys on the first PP unit who can bring the puck in under control and set it up.

Either way, I don't understand all the hate for him and have been liking the way he's been playing this year. Having said that, he was downright brutal last night and wasn't that great on Wed as well, but as a whole, he has had a pretty good season, even if his stats aren't up to par of what some fans would like them to be.

2 things:

I keep hearing people say Laich is playing decently. Where, exactly, is that showing? He's got the lest point on the team for any regular, and is not a plus player.

I think the Cup can absolutely be won or lost due to Laich's contract (well, lost, in the Caps case) I couldn't disagree with you more. That's why I'm so vehement about this. Last year it didn't matter as much as I didn't see this team as Cup worthy. This year, I think it is. Save Laich's wasted salary slot (and to a lesser extent, MaJo's).

Again, players do a lot more than stats show. A lot of people are looking at Laich and saying he's not producing because of what his cap hit is. Which is absolutely true, but can't blame him on the contract. If you are a pro athlete and the GM or Assistant GM offers you an average of 4.5M for X amount of years, would you really not take it even if you don't believe your worth it?

Of course he's overpaid, but he's been playing pretty well this year with the min he's been given. He's been playing well in the D zone, playing well on the PK, blocking shots, hustling, hitting, and even creating a few scoring opportunities while playing on the 4th line from time to time. That's exactly what you want from your 3rd and 4th line players.

 

[caps8]

#4 ranked PK in the NHL.

Leading Caps forward in TOI SH per game with 2:01.

So...yeah.

Laich is THE ideal bottom 6 forward IMO, it's just a shame his contract is so terrible. The team is 4.48% better in terms of possession when Laich is on the ice, that's a damn good number for a fourth liner.

 

[Ridley Simon]

#4 ranked PK in the NHL.

Leading Caps forward in TOI SH per game with 2:01.

So...yeah.

That's an easy out. Most will tell you that the Goalie is the main reason for good vs bad PK. Sure the forwards and D matter, and as a unit they all contribute.

That said, I find it hard to believe if Laich were replaced with another F that the PK would all the sudden fall apart. Laich has been a stalwart on the PK for years now, and it was never seen as a strength. Now it's been turned over to the tune of many new players fitting into that duty, and we all want to say that the one constant from the previously bad units is now why it's a good unit? Nothing to do with the other new forwards that are contributing?

Ok then. Seems many here are reaching to defend a player that really is the worst on the team for regular forwards, and also has a very heavy price tag. Other than the MaJo hate, which is about half grounded in reality, which regular forward could be argued to be worse than Laich?

Seriously? Who? Chimera? Beagle? Burakovsky?

 

[Ridley Simon]

Well. I wanted to emphasize that I said he's been better lately but elected not to do so. Maybe we can agree to disagree on Laich?

Looks like I will disagree with a lot of the board on this issue. I think we need to jettison him at "almost"all costs (wouldn't deal a 2nd rd or better pick, but would a 3rd or similar prospect) to allow for us to have the best chance to win the Cup the next 2 years. Most disagree, and that we can win with Brooks Laich. Hope I'm wrong, but I am pretty sure I'm not.

Last time this happened was over George, and whether he should stay as GM (back in 2011). Saw how that turned out.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

Lol, the guy using points and +/- calls that an easy out?

Why don't you break down what, specifically, you're seeing ON THE ICE, that indicates Laich isn't playing well?

As has been said, the box scores don't tell the whole story.

Laich has played better, at times, than Mojo, Latta, Burakovsky, and Chimera this season.

No one is arguing his contract isn't bad given his role, but you've got your head in the sand if you can't even acknowledge when he does play well.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Lol, the guy using points and +/- calls that an easy out?

Why don't you break down what, specifically, you're seeing ON THE ICE, that indicates Laich isn't playing well?

As has been said, the box scores don't tell the whole story.

Laich has played better, at times, than Mojo, Latta, Burakovsky, and Chimera this season.

No one is arguing his contract isn't bad given his role, but you've got your head in the sand if you can't even acknowledge when he does play well.

Did you even read the rest of the comments, save the first 2 words? It's all Laich that is powering the newly found strong PK? Guys like Oshie, Williams, and Wilson, who are new to the PK, have nothing to do with it? If Laich is such a PK stalwart, why has it struggled so much the past few years with him leading it? I'm all ears/eyes on that one.

I have seen a guy that has very little speed, has very little shot, and has no moves to speak of. I don't even see the hands he used to have. Which is weird. He's been reduced to a grinder, and he will use his body to try and pin the opponent in their own end. Similar to Latta, and what guys like Bradley use to do. He's all effort, and that's great and all, as with him completely diminished skills, how could he be on the team if he was lazy? I'm sure the room likes him enou, so that's a nice quality.

Again....over the Course of the Season (to date), not some 5 game sample.... Which regular forward has been worse than Laich? Maybe Burakovsky? I am asking you seriously....

I know you appreciate Laich more than most, so I'm sorry if my comments upset you. That is not my intent. I just think we have to move on from his asap to maximize the Ovy window here.

 

[g00n]

Is it unusual to think Mojo AND Laich have both been degrees of hot and cold?

Maybe the difference right now is Mojo is playing a style that broadcasts his mistakes. His blind passes to nobody stand out because they happen in open ice. Laich's gaffes happen during a grind game and are harder to spot (except for rushes and flubbed shots, of course). It helps Laich's cause that Wilson and Latta have been pretty good and bring a LOT of energy when they're out there.

If Mojo isn't scoring he's perceived to be underperforming because of where he plays. If Laich isn't scoring it's seen as fine because that's not why the 4th line is really out there. Both frequently seem to kill rushes, and often wind up being the final touch on long offensive zone possessions.

Whoever's deemed to be worse and whoever can take credit, I think a larger point is that the preseason concerns about the 4th line some had MAY have been unjustified, and Mojo's place on the team remains an issue.

 

[kmart]

In no way do I see the Caps OVERPAYING to ditch Laich. Not at the cost of their top prospects.

i wondered if this is even a thing... ditching contracts with the price of prospects. to be honest i only see such proposals in fantasy or hf talks

 

[Ridley Simon]

Is it unusual to think Mojo AND Laich have both been degrees of hot and cold?

Maybe the difference right now is Mojo is playing a style that broadcasts his mistakes. His blind passes to nobody stand out because they happen in open ice. Laich's gaffes happen during a grind game and are harder to spot (except for rushes and flubbed shots, of course). It helps Laich's cause that Wilson and Latta have been pretty good and bring a LOT of energy when they're out there.

If Mojo isn't scoring he's perceived to be underperforming because of where he plays. If Laich isn't scoring it's seen as fine because that's not why the 4th line is really out there. Both frequently seem to kill rushes, and often wind up being the final touch on long offensive zone possessions.

Whoever's deemed to be worse and whoever can take credit, I think a larger point is that the preseason concerns about the 4th line some had MAY have been unjustified, and Mojo's place on the team remains an issue.

It's funny, as during the off-season and into the pre-season, I think many has Laich penciled in as the 3c. I think even Trotz said something to that effect, but I'm too lazy to look it up.

The hand wringing was about the entire bottom 6, wasn't it? Not specifically the 4th line. While I am not dismissing how the bottom line has played over the past few weeks, it's been pretty solid, it still and issue for a team hoping to win a Cup, to have that much money tied up in line 4. You pay that price somewhere, and for the Caps it seems to be the middle 6. Get the 2nd line going, and then the 3rd suffers. Get the 3rd fixed, and the 2nd is an issue. That's all due to us having to slot players into roles they shouldn't be (Williams) to augment the weaknesses of a few forwards.

But to your main point, YES, you are right. Both Laich and MaJo are the main (and perhaps only??) real culprits on the roster, that are not carrying their weight. (Too soon to say about Orpik,IMO). Were both 22yr old kids on entry level deals, then this wouldn't matter, as other players could be afforded to round out the group. But not today.

I too share in your fantasy of removing the 8.25m anchor that those 2 represent. We had it worse last year with Green and Brouwer adding to the cement mix, so it'd improved a lot (as have our "Cup chances"....imagine that, getting rid of poor ROI players and inserting good ones, which makes the team that much closer to the end goal). If GMBM can finish the job (this season, don't wait for next), and use the 8.25m more wisely...and get better ROI than 21 & 90 recurrently represent....then we just may have our first hockey parade in DC .....as soon as this season!

 

[Acallabeth]

Then we'll agree to disagree. It's a silly position IMO to say one player is going to lose you the Cup. In a team sport there are just too many other variables.

I think it's pretty easy. Laich is the player who prevents the Caps to have a real defenseman instead of Taylor Chorney. A real depth defenseman would be a difference between a good defensive roster and a pretty concerning one. And it's pretty easy to find a decent 4th liner.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I think it's pretty easy. Laich is the player who prevents the Caps to have a real defenseman instead of Taylor Chorney. A real depth defenseman would be a difference between a good defensive roster and a pretty concerning one. And it's pretty easy to find a decent 4th liner.

It's easy to find a replacement 4the liner. It's not easy to find a cheap bottom pair guy who is great if you don't draft well. its not like Chorney is a mainstay in the bottom pair, or the Caps don't have two pretty damn good young guys there most of the time.

You're suggesting they spend $3.5-4 mil on a bottom pair guy? Even if they could get a really good one, it would cost a lot in a trade, and Laich's contract is almost immovable without the Caps getting bent over. I'd say we already have a pretty damn good defensive roster. What NHL teams don't have a sketchy 7th D?

 

[Calicaps]

It's easy to find a replacement 4the liner. It's not easy to find a cheap bottom pair guy who is great if you don't draft well. its not like Chorney is a mainstay in the bottom pair, or the Caps don't have two pretty damn good young guys there most of the time.

You're suggesting they spend $3.5-4 mil on a bottom pair guy? Even if they could get a really good one, it would cost a lot in a trade, and Laich's contract is almost immovable without the Caps getting bent over. I'd say we already have a pretty damn good defensive roster. What NHL teams don't have a sketchy 7th D?

This. Chorney is a +2 on the season. Not much more you can ask of a 7th guy than to be on the right side of even overall.

 

[malyk]

One thing that drives me crazy about Laich is that a couple times a game he'll get the puck leaving the defensive zone, skate across the offensive blueline 1 vs. 2 or 2 vs. 2, and then throw a week slapshot or wristshot on goal for an easy save. Sometimes that's valuable to get a whistle and an offensive zone faceoff, but it also reeks of a guy playing to the stats. Low quality shot to boost corsi, offensive zone faceoff to boost zone starts/ends.

The better play most of the time is to take the puck low and maintain possession. But maybe that's what he's coached to do. Hard to know.

 

[HockeyTS32]

One thing that drives me crazy about Laich is that a couple times a game he'll get the puck leaving the defensive zone, skate across the offensive blueline 1 vs. 2 or 2 vs. 2, and then throw a week slapshot or wristshot on goal for an easy save. Sometimes that's valuable to get a whistle and an offensive zone faceoff, but it also reeks of a guy playing to the stats. Low quality shot to boost corsi, offensive zone faceoff to boost zone starts/ends.

The better play most of the time is to take the puck low and maintain possession. But maybe that's what he's coached to do. Hard to know.

Most of the time when he does it, he has no one with him because they are going for a line change.

 

[ChibiPooky]

One thing that drives me crazy about Laich is that a couple times a game he'll get the puck leaving the defensive zone, skate across the offensive blueline 1 vs. 2 or 2 vs. 2, and then throw a week slapshot or wristshot on goal for an easy save. Sometimes that's valuable to get a whistle and an offensive zone faceoff, but it also reeks of a guy playing to the stats. Low quality shot to boost corsi, offensive zone faceoff to boost zone starts/ends.

The better play most of the time is to take the puck low and maintain possession. But maybe that's what he's coached to do. Hard to know.

What would the incentive be for him to do that? It's not like he's in a contract year, and it's far from a sure thing he'll have an NHL contract when his current deal expires.

 

[Hivemind]

One thing that drives me crazy about Laich is that a couple times a game he'll get the puck leaving the defensive zone, skate across the offensive blueline 1 vs. 2 or 2 vs. 2, and then throw a week slapshot or wristshot on goal for an easy save. Sometimes that's valuable to get a whistle and an offensive zone faceoff, but it also reeks of a guy playing to the stats. Low quality shot to boost corsi, offensive zone faceoff to boost zone starts/ends.

The better play most of the time is to take the puck low and maintain possession. But maybe that's what he's coached to do. Hard to know.

Laich has done that his entire career, including well before corsi was popular.

 

[ChibiPooky]

i wondered if this is even a thing... ditching contracts with the price of prospects. to be honest i only see such proposals in fantasy or hf talks

It's not a thing. Prospects/picks are too valuable to the long-term success of the organization. Look at the number of first-round picks that get traded these days. Look at the front offices of teams that are perennially at the bottom of the standings. It's all about drafting and developing properly.