Speculation: The Visnovsky Imperative

[Darth Milbury]

So, we have multiple threads about Vish and I do not want to start another one. But, I did have one point that I thought might warrant discussion in a separate thread.

The Isles playoff run coincided with the acquisition of Vish last year. And, in fact, many of us observed that (with the exception of JT) he was often the best player on the ice last season. And, by yet another random coincidence, we went right into the tank when he got hurt.

The real problem here is the paper thin defense, the fact that our few real NHL defenders (like Hamonic and AMac) are being pressed into more significant roles than they can handle, and the absence of other stud defenders.

Vish, even after he returns, will be an aging player who probably does not have a long future in NY. He's been great, but I think the Isles need to start thinking about a better patch on an ongoing problem.

Shouldn't Snow be thinking about the longer-term picture on defense (which, IMO, looks bleak)?

And, I'm not at all relieved by all the great kids we have coming up. Its one thing to lean on an 18-YO Tavares for scoring, an entirely different thing to expect a 21-YO defender to shut down Crosby. Defense is the hardest position to learn and you can't win without a few graybeards.

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[Richie Daggers Crime]

The Isles have zero transition game right now. This really hurts this team whose strengths are speed and scoring off the rush. The PP is in the toilet too, since we have freaking Andrew MacDonald as the QB.

 

[xECK29x]

De hann has made a huge difference in the transition game last night vs Pits, it's exactly what Vish will bring back.

 

[wingnutks]

We are not good ANYWHERE along the boards. In our zone or in the O zone. They are constantly panic smacking the puck around the boards to an empty halfwall all the time. No one is there, and it gets picked up by the opposing team and we stay trapped. Also, we "win" faceoffs in our own zone, and end up getting pinned in behind the net and trapped in the zone anyway 75% of the time. Even in the O zone our cycling is horribad. Players are constantly dumping the puck around the boards when both other forwards are in the slot and not in position to stop it.

 

[kasper11]

So, we have multiple threads about Vish and I do not want to start another one. But, I did have one point that I thought might warrant discussion in a separate thread.

The Isles playoff run coincided with the acquisition of Vish last year. And, in fact, many of us observed that (with the exception of JT) he was often the best player on the ice last season. And, by yet another random coincidence, we went right into the tank when he got hurt.

The real problem here is the paper thin defense, the fact that our few real NHL defenders (like Hamonic and AMac) are being pressed into more significant roles than they can handle, and the absence of other stud defenders.

Vish, even after he returns, will be an aging player who probably does not have a long future in NY. He's been great, but I think the Isles need to start thinking about a better patch on an ongoing problem.

Shouldn't Snow be thinking about the longer-term picture on defense (which, IMO, looks bleak)?

And, I'm not at all relieved by all the great kids we have coming up. Its one thing to lean on an 18-YO Tavares for scoring, an entirely different thing to expect a 21-YO defender to shut down Crosby. Defense is the hardest position to learn and you can't win without a few graybeards.

I actually think Snow has a long-term plan on D.

Our 2012 D (when healthy) was:
AMac-Hamonic
Vis-Hickey
Streit-Strait

The plan for 2013 was to replace Streit with Donovan or De Haan
AMac-Hamonic
Vis-Hickey
Donovan/De Haan-Strait

The plan for 2014, I would think, would be to incorporate Reinhardt at the expense of Hickey or Strait and re-sign AMac.
AMac-Hamonic
Vis-Donovan/De Haan
Hickey/Strait-Reinhardt

The following year we lose Vis, but Pulock could be ready
Reinhardt-Hamonic
Donovan/De Haan-AMac
Pulock-Hickey/Strait

With others (Pokka, Pelech, Mayfield, Pedan etc) competing for those rookie spots.

Bring in one of the rookies each year and give them sheltered third-pairing minutes until they prove they can handle more. The problem is that Snow didn't account for the inevitable injuries that happen to every team, especially to 36 year old dmen. He also didn't have a good what-if plan in case no rookies were ready this year.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I actually think Snow has a long-term plan on D.

Our 2012 D (when healthy) was:
AMac-Hamonic
Vis-Hickey
Streit-Strait

The plan for 2013 was to replace Streit with Donovan or De Haan
AMac-Hamonic
Vis-Hickey
Donovan/De Haan-Strait

The plan for 2014, I would think, would be to incorporate Reinhardt at the expense of Hickey or Strait and re-sign AMac.
AMac-Hamonic
Vis-Donovan/De Haan
Hickey/Strait-Reinhardt

The following year we lose Vis, but Pulock could be ready
Reinhardt-Hamonic
Donovan/De Haan-AMac
Pulock-Hickey/Strait

With others (Pokka, Pelech, Mayfield, Pedan etc) competing for those rookie spots.

Bring in one of the rookies each year and give them sheltered third-pairing minutes until they prove they can handle more. The problem is that Snow didn't account for the inevitable injuries that happen to every team, especially to 36 year old dmen. He also didn't have a good what-if plan in case no rookies were ready this year.

I apologize for only bolding and discussing a short part of your post. Seems a bit rude considering you went into length on the rest of it. However ...

I think that's always going to be the issue if roster decisions involve assuming that rookies/youngsters can step in right away and play big roles, and thus not even address the position with veterans who are known commodities. I think that was a major issue this season for Snow, believing that Donovan can, basically, take over Streit's role, rather than acquiring/signing a proven top four guy to replace/improve upon Streit. Even if one were to believe Streit wasn't that good last year, then Snow should have looked to upgrade that spot, not bring in a guy with an unproven track record and hope for the best.

So I think the danger of making lineup cards that include guys like Reinhart, Pulock, etc. playing major roles within the next season or two could result in the same problems as the Donovan/Streit situation this season. That's not even to suggest that guys like Reinhart or Pulock won't eventually become top four guys, but to pencil them in before they're even in the NHL is a bit short sighted (not directed at you, but rather just in general).

I know it's hard not to get excited about prospects. I know on the Pens board we even have some folks who'd like to see our defense corps this year made up of Maatta, Despres, Bortuzzo, and Harrington. But I can't recall the last really good team who actually iced a defense corps made up of a bunch of under-25s. One or two surrounded by proven veterans, sure. But where the main guys in the top six are 25 or under?

 

[It Was 4 to 1*]

We are not good ANYWHERE along the boards. In our zone or in the O zone. They are constantly panic smacking the puck around the boards to an empty halfwall all the time. No one is there, and it gets picked up by the opposing team and we stay trapped. Also, we "win" faceoffs in our own zone, and end up getting pinned in behind the net and trapped in the zone anyway 75% of the time. Even in the O zone our cycling is horribad. Players are constantly dumping the puck around the boards when both other forwards are in the slot and not in position to stop it.

so much this. it's so frustrating to watch

 

[kasper11]

I apologize for only bolding and discussing a short part of your post. Seems a bit rude considering you went into length on the rest of it. However ...

I think that's always going to be the issue if roster decisions involve assuming that rookies/youngsters can step in right away and play big roles, and thus not even address the position with veterans who are known commodities. I think that was a major issue this season for Snow, believing that Donovan can, basically, take over Streit's role, rather than acquiring/signing a proven top four guy to replace/improve upon Streit. Even if one were to believe Streit wasn't that good last year, then Snow should have looked to upgrade that spot, not bring in a guy with an unproven track record and hope for the best.

So I think the danger of making lineup cards that include guys like Reinhart, Pulock, etc. playing major roles within the next season or two could result in the same problems as the Donovan/Streit situation this season. That's not even to suggest that guys like Reinhart or Pulock won't eventually become top four guys, but to pencil them in before they're even in the NHL is a bit short sighted (not directed at you, but rather just in general).

I know it's hard not to get excited about prospects. I know on the Pens board we even have some folks who'd like to see our defense corps this year made up of Maatta, Despres, Bortuzzo, and Harrington. But I can't recall the last really good team who actually iced a defense corps made up of a bunch of under-25s. One or two surrounded by proven veterans, sure. But where the main guys in the top six are 25 or under?

Not rude at all. If you only have comments on one part of my post, no need to waste your time writing about the rest.

I don't think it has to be an issue if you construct your roster properly. If you look at the pairings I had assumed were the plan, the rookies are eased in on a bottom pair. You should have a good enough #7 that they can step in if the rookie isn't ready.

The Islanders have Carkner, who is a) terrible and b) a completely different player than Donovan/De Haan.

That's why next year, while the plan would be for Reinhardt to take the spot of Hickey or Strait, hopefully both would still be on the roster. That way, if Reinhardt struggles, you have another serviceable stay at home dman ready to slot in.

The big problem for Snow this year was that his roster only worked if everything went right.

If everyone stayed healthy, if AMac and Hamonic improved, if Donovan was ready, if Strait played like he did the first 7 games of last year etc.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

I apologize for only bolding and discussing a short part of your post. Seems a bit rude considering you went into length on the rest of it. However ...

I think that's always going to be the issue if roster decisions involve assuming that rookies/youngsters can step in right away and play big roles, and thus not even address the position with veterans who are known commodities. I think that was a major issue this season for Snow, believing that Donovan can, basically, take over Streit's role, rather than acquiring/signing a proven top four guy to replace/improve upon Streit. Even if one were to believe Streit wasn't that good last year, then Snow should have looked to upgrade that spot, not bring in a guy with an unproven track record and hope for the best.

So I think the danger of making lineup cards that include guys like Reinhart, Pulock, etc. playing major roles within the next season or two could result in the same problems as the Donovan/Streit situation this season. That's not even to suggest that guys like Reinhart or Pulock won't eventually become top four guys, but to pencil them in before they're even in the NHL is a bit short sighted (not directed at you, but rather just in general).

I know it's hard not to get excited about prospects. I know on the Pens board we even have some folks who'd like to see our defense corps this year made up of Maatta, Despres, Bortuzzo, and Harrington. But I can't recall the last really good team who actually iced a defense corps made up of a bunch of under-25s. One or two surrounded by proven veterans, sure. But where the main guys in the top six are 25 or under?

I've been saying this for a while. You can't go all in on a young defense. If we add two more next year which I believe is Snow's plan it is going to be the road to McDavid. Maybe that is a good thing...

 

[MJP]

John Michael Liles. Same player as Vis. We can easily take his contract, and if you ask Toronto fans, they'd rather have him playing over some of their guys they have up now. Apparently he is just toying around in the AHL and kind of dominating.

 

[Sheva7]

Vis makes everyone around him better. But any dman who can move the puck and make smart plays will make their team better - check out the stats on how well this team plays when Hickey is on the ice.

Is it a coincidence that the team has looked dramatically different since DeHaans call-up?

We're support to be a fast team. But it's hard to play fast when 5/6 dmen can't make a pass. When AMac/Carkner/Martinek/Ness/Strait have the puck it's either a hard one off the glass or a turnover. Those type of plays don't translate to fast hockey.

Bringing up Dehann is huge. Getting a healthy Vis back will also be huge. Shedding AMAC and adding Big Griff along with a confident Donovan sometime down the road (hopefully next year) is going to be monumental.

 

[Yashin for President]

If Michael Liles was as good as Visnovsky he wouldnt be in the AHL.

 

[Darth Milbury]

If Michael Liles was as good as Visnovsky he wouldnt be in the AHL.

I'm not even sure Liles is better than Aaron Ness, to be honest. He was awful his last year in Colorado.

 

[YearlyLottery]

While Vis is by no means a superstar defenseman, on THIS team he is a #2. When he got hurt we said hello to AMAC on the PP, Hammer being pushed into more of an "offensive" role, we saw Ness brought up, and Donovan as well as Dehaan.

This is what we saw when we had two defenseman get hurt.

If the Isles can manage to stay 1-5 points out of a spot until at least Vis comes back we have a chance. If Nilsson or Poulin can play well we have a chance.


Too many question marks going into the offseason that were left unanswered. This is the real reason we went into a slump. While Vis has something to do with it lets not over think things. This is still barely a playoff team until the kids can develop.

 

[Sparksrus3]

8 wins 20 losses, 5 wins in regulation.
Why would lubo come back.
This team won't get 60 points this season.
We may never see aness and lube teamed up together.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

I'm not even sure Liles is better than Aaron Ness, to be honest. He was awful his last year in Colorado.

Try telling that to some of the loonier TO fans on the main board. Wait, I think I did see you telling them. Their responses:

Strome for Liles.
Hamonic for Liles
Tavares for Liles and a 2nd rounder.

 

[redbull]

I'm not even sure Liles is better than Aaron Ness, to be honest. He was awful his last year in Colorado.

Liles is better than Carkner, but probably close to Ness. I'd say Ness is better defensively than Liles though Liles (like MABergeron) would be good on the PP.

Leaf fans think the league doesn't know Liles sucks. Just like they were sure Komisarek would be traded.

I'd like Jake Gardiner. He's fallen out of favour but has some real talent and potential. Curious what the asking price is.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

De hann has made a huge difference in the transition game last night vs Pits, it's exactly what Vish will bring back.

I do think that DeHaan made a difference, but he brings a whole new bag of different problems with him. He's raw defensively, mostly due to inexperience. Vis is gonna make the right play 9 times out of 10 because he knows the NHL. DeHaan doesn't.

It's a big issue. Especially if Vis is just straight up done.

 

[Felix Unger]

I'm afraid the damage is already done. The last offseason was the opportunity, and SnoWang struck out looking. They could have gotten a goalie. They could've have filled out some defensive depth. In order to do so, they would've had to eat Carkner's contract and pay some of Nino's on the way out. They were obviously not prepared to do what it took to improve.

The goalie market is considerably leaner than it was. The market for defense is tighter than the proverbial diamond-producing a**, and teams have yet to have the opportunity to resign their UFA's to be. It's going to get tighter.

At this point (such as it is), NYI is best off trying to do things that won't cost us dearly in terms of talent. That is, get some better option in net. Also, try to improve the third line, because Regin and Bouchard are not contributing at all. It may be time to move on from Bailey as well.

Last year the team struggled and Visnovsky came and righted the defensive roles, as Darth indicated. This time around we're still down one defender when Vis comes back, because the Donovan for Streit move was a failure. Vis is going to have to come back slowly and gingerly - I don't see him having the effect his initial presence had last year. In short, I'm completely pessimistic. I think this year is shot, and it is better to act as if next year is the real chance.

The situation is fixable, but it will cost real money. Plan for the offseason. Sign Vanek. If you can't, sign a serious veteran winger like Vrbata. Hell, sign both on the same day. Have a 'V' for Victory ceremony. Sign a Hiller or Halak. Sign an Orpik or Hannan (or both). With a real payroll we could have a real team.

 

[bigd]

I'm afraid the damage is already done. The last offseason was the opportunity, and SnoWang struck out looking. They could have gotten a goalie. They could've have filled out some defensive depth. In order to do so, they would've had to eat Carkner's contract and pay some of Nino's on the way out. They were obviously not prepared to do what it took to improve.

The goalie market is considerably leaner than it was. The market for defense is tighter than the proverbial diamond-producing a**, and teams have yet to have the opportunity to resign their UFA's to be. It's going to get tighter.

At this point (such as it is), NYI is best off trying to do things that won't cost us dearly in terms of talent. That is, get some better option in net. Also, try to improve the third line, because Regin and Bouchard are not contributing at all. It may be time to move on from Bailey as well.

Last year the team struggled and Visnovsky came and righted the defensive roles, as Darth indicated. This time around we're still down one defender when Vis comes back, because the Donovan for Streit move was a failure. Vis is going to have to come back slowly and gingerly - I don't see him having the effect his initial presence had last year. In short, I'm completely pessimistic. I think this year is shot, and it is better to act as if next year is the real chance.

The situation is fixable, but it will cost real money. Plan for the offseason. Sign Vanek. If you can't, sign a serious veteran winger like Vrbata. Hell, sign both on the same day. Have a 'V' for Victory ceremony. Sign a Hiller or Halak. Sign an Orpik or Hannan (or both). With a real payroll we could have a real team.

I agree, Snow had the perfect chance to improve the team over the summer with no real pressure on him and dealing from a point of strength. He chose to stand pat and now he is under pressure and dealing with a lean market. So far this plan has backfired. I know we've had injuries at key positions but every team has them and good GM's plan for this.

 

[MJP]

If Michael Liles was as good as Visnovsky he wouldnt be in the AHL.

He's in the AHL b/c they didn't have cap space for his contract.

 

[Sheva7]

I'm afraid the damage is already done. The last offseason was the opportunity, and SnoWang struck out looking. They could have gotten a goalie. They could've have filled out some defensive depth. In order to do so, they would've had to eat Carkner's contract and pay some of Nino's on the way out. They were obviously not prepared to do what it took to improve.

See the bolded.

I'd like to know how exactly you think the Isles were supposed to round out the G/blueline.

Yes Snow decided to stand pat in the summer, but what true 'upgrades' were there?

Here's how i see it...
Emery and Khudobin? Those were the guys who signed with new teams in the summer. Not exactly great pieces. To me, neither are clear cut upgrades over what we already have in Nabokov/Poulin/Nilsson. So I don't fault him for passing on them.
Also, I don't know of any teams willing to trade away their starting goalie. So sayin "oh we should have gotten a goalie" is much easier said than done.

As for the Defense, people make it sound like the Isles are the only team in the NHL who are thin on the back-end. Leafs, Flyers, Caps, Oilers (along with several other teams) are desperate in that department as well, and would trade for a dman in a second if they were presented the opportunity.
But the reality is that there simply aren't enough good dmen to go around. Much like goaltending - I don't know of any team saying "jeez, we've got too many D...if only someone would trade with us" LOL its not gonna happen.

Isles tried for Scuderi in the summer and couldn't get it done, he wanted to be a Penguin, can you blame him? But really, after him who was there? Sekera? He went for McBain (another dman), so there goes that.

It's real tough to get better through signing UFA's. Rarely happens for any team. Isles have some blue chippers coming up, so we'll have to be patient I guess.

 

[Riseonfire]

No Scott Hannon please. Dude is the definition of toast. He was done in Washington, he's done now.

 

[MattMartin]

I really believe if we had a real #1 and #2 Reinhart would have been here this year. Look at Hamilton and Krug last year or Jones this year. When you have veteran leaders they can learn on the fly. When your #1/2 are still learning the game (Hamonic/AMAC), how can they possibly teach the kids what to do when they are kids themselves????

I know many call for Snow's head and I have argued if it's his fault or Wang's fault. Either way we could have been such a better team already if our payroll wasn't near the bottom the last 8 years or so.

I'm not saying you need to by the cup (see the Rag$), just try to help these kids that you drafted let play behind some veterans who are not just trade bait and are on literally their last leg (the cheap way out).

Regin,Bouchard,Sim,Weight,Reasoner,Carkner,Guerin,Boyes,Jurcina,Staios,etc....are not the type of leaders we need/needed to help these kids in this posters honest opinion.

 

[Sheva7]

No Scott Hannon please. Dude is the definition of toast. He was done in Washington, he's done now.

this is what i'm talking about. A lot of the guys available are available for a reason lol 99% of the time it's because they aren't any better than hthe garbage we have playing now.... they all stinkkkkkk