The Utica Comets Thread XXIV - Calder Cup Playoffs Edition!

[Proto]

Prospects generally jump right into the AHL playoffs because most AHL teams have holes in them, so living with their growing pains is worth it as either way they're better than some plug-- it's usually a can't hurt to try scenario. This isn't that-- While not every player on the Comets is a superstar, each player has a huge role.

If you value the development of these two players over the value of a deep run to the rest of the team INCLUDING the other young players, then fine, do what you have to do, but I don't think I do. Gaunce in particular seems to be learning alot from this run so far.

Hogwash. There's tons of detritus on that roster and a real inability to score goals.

Did the Marlies hold out William Nylander because he wasn't ready? No, they brought him over from Europe and he was second on the team in PPG. That kid is already performing at an elite level at 18 and he's going to absolutely shred that league next year. And the Canucks are seemingly afraid to toss their kid into that same fire? For what? A bunch of guys with zero NHL potential.

I dunno. It seems crazy to me and is likely a product of this deleterious pursuit of intangible on-ice qualities like "good in scrums" and "winning environment" that led to poor decision making all year. I have a hard time getting behind that. I'll wait and see if J & J get in there, but Hutton doesn't leave much hope for them to make the right call.

 

[Jyrki21]

Did the Marlies hold out William Nylander because he wasn't ready? No, they brought him over from Europe and he was second on the team in PPG. That kid is already performing at an elite level at 18 and he's going to absolutely shred that league next year. And the Canucks are seemingly afraid to toss their kid into that same fire? For what? A bunch of guys with zero NHL potential.

I think this is more an indictment (or at least consideration) of Virtanen as a "project" pick than anything. If Nylander were a Canuck draft pick and had the season he did, I'll bet he slots in with the Comets too.

 

[Proto]

I think this is more an indictment (or at least consideration) of Virtanen as a "project" pick than anything. If Nylander were a Canuck draft pick and had the season he did, I'll bet he slots in with the Comets too.

Absolutely possible, but put him in there and find out. There's no point in shying away from reality here, imo.

Also, it goes without saying I absolutely want the Comets to win the Calder Cup, but I don't want them to do it while scratching Gaunce and sitting potentially elite prospects on the sideline. Even rotating JV and JM to see what they have for a game or two would be a nice start. And get Hutton in there already!

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

William Nylander played his first AHL game in the second round of the AHL playoffs and scored ppg? wow the kid is the next patty kane!

 

[CanaFan]

Absolutely possible, but put him in there and find out. There's no point in shying away from reality here, imo.

Also, it goes without saying I absolutely want the Comets to win the Calder Cup, but I don't want them to do it while scratching Gaunce and sitting potentially elite prospects on the sideline. Even rotating JV and JM to see what they have for a game or two would be a nice start. And get Hutton in there already!

You think there's no difference between slotting in a guy who is already playing pro into the AHL during the regular season and slotting a guy who has only played junior directly into the second round of the playoffs?

Like, no difference at all?

 

[opendoor]

Hodgson walked onto the Moose in the Conference Finals a few days after bowing out of the OHL finals. Wasn't a big deal then for a top prospect and it wouldn't be one now with Virtanen or McCann.

Can anyone come up with any examples of 1st rounders of Virtanen or McCann's caliber who were available to their AHL team but didn't dress? Maybe it's more common than I think, but I'm having trouble coming up with any.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Hodgson walked onto the Moose in the Conference Finals a few days after bowing out of the OHL finals. Wasn't a big deal then for a top prospect and it wouldn't be one now with Virtanen or McCann.

Can anyone come up with any examples of 1st rounders of Virtanen or McCann's caliber who were available to their AHL team but didn't dress? Maybe it's more common than I think, but I'm having trouble coming up with any.

made all the difference in Hodgson's development, I see why you guys are so hard on the coach for not playing our rookie's

 

[tantalum]

Hodgson walked onto the Moose in the Conference Finals a few days after bowing out of the OHL finals. Wasn't a big deal then for a top prospect and it wouldn't be one now with Virtanen or McCann.

Can anyone come up with any examples of 1st rounders of Virtanen or McCann's caliber who were available to their AHL team but didn't dress? Maybe it's more common than I think, but I'm having trouble coming up with any.

He did play in the series but the Wolves scratched Fabbri in games 4 and 5. I don't think it was injury.

ON the flip side as I asked how common is it for guys to jump right into round 2 of the playoffs after a couple of practice days?

Yes they should be able to handle it and likely would do so but it doesn't make them not getting into game 1 an automatic bad decision.

 

[Taelin]

Let's just wait and see before we all cry Chicken Little. We haven't even seen the lines in practice yet.

 

[opendoor]

made all the difference in Hodgson's development, I see why you guys are so hard on the coach for not playing our rookie's

Hodgson was good with the Moose and developed well after that. It was his attitude once he made the NHL combined with his inability to skate like an NHLer that sunk him.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Hodgson was good with the Moose and developed well after that. It was his attitude once he made the NHL combined with his inability to skate like an NHLer that sunk him.

maybe that poor attitude stemmed from getting gifted roster spots ahead of players who earned them all his life

 

[Proto]

Hodgson was good with the Moose and developed well after that. It was his attitude once he made the NHL combined with his inability to skate like an NHLer that sunk him.

And his back injury seemed to hurt his skating even moreso.

 

[Proto]

You think there's no difference between slotting in a guy who is already playing pro into the AHL during the regular season and slotting a guy who has only played junior directly into the second round of the playoffs?

Like, no difference at all?

I don't think it would be functionally all that different. More pressure, but it's the same game, and these kids just finished up playing in the CHL playoffs -- in some cases against players so good they won't even see a second of ice time in the AHL. I just don't see the harm in putting McCann in for a scrub like Zalewski or playing Hutton or whathaveyou. Hopefully they do. It's more important to experience these levels of hockey than just to be part of an atmosphere IMHO.

 

[Tampacuseforever]

maybe that poor attitude stemmed from getting gifted roster spots ahead of players who earned them all his life

Now stop it ! We need to gift positions to any player drafted in the first round. That is called development on this board. The hell with earning it, and the hell with developing players in a winning environment. Just throw them out there because they are "the shiny new toys" that need to be opened IMMEDIATELY

 

[CanaFan]

I don't think it would be functionally all that different. More pressure, but it's the same game, and these kids just finished up playing in the CHL playoffs -- in some cases against players so good they won't even see a second of ice time in the AHL. I just don't see the harm in putting McCann in for a scrub like Zalewski or playing Hutton or whathaveyou. Hopefully they do. It's more important to experience these levels of hockey than just to be part of an atmosphere IMHO.

Look, I would also like to see them both get in for all the reasons that have been stated in this thread. But I also think you can't just throw two 18 year old kids who have never played at the pro level into a new team, new systems, and new compete level ... into the 2nd round of the playoffs. It isn't fair to the team and tbh it isn't fair to J&J. If they go in and struggle in game 1 or worse, make a mistake that leads to a loss, that will be hard to come back from.

My preference is to hold them out for Game 1 and maybe Game 2 to allow them to watch the team play and learn the systems in practice. Then if the Comets need a change or a spark in Game 3 or 4 put them into a bottom 6 role. If they impress then move them up or increase their minutes.

It simply isn't fair to compare the scenario in Utica right now to adding a player like Nylander to the Marlies 4 months ago. Regular season is a world away from playoffs, *even* in the AHL. We want these kids to progress, not be thrown into the deep end and drown. A little patience never hurt a prospect's development.

 

[Tiranis]

Hogwash. There's tons of detritus on that roster and a real inability to score goals.

But what is someone like Virtanen, who is an average scorer at the WHL level, going to bring? All of the forwards you're criticizing were as productive in junior 2+ years ago. They've grown since. Obviously Virtanen will become better than them but he's not right now and he's unlikely to get there over the course of a few games.

Let's keep in mind that Nylander was as productive in the SHL — a men's top league — as Virtanen was in the WHL. (Marlies also didn't finish 1st in their conference.)

The Comets have a lack of top AHL talent, not depth. That's why they don't score enough. They have probably the deepest forward roster 1-12. Two 18 year old prospects aren't going to bring that top talent.

 

[carlweezer*]

I'm confused. Can someone clarify.

Are people whinning because they think Virtanen is ready and should be in the lineup.

Or

Are people whining because they know Virtanen is not ready but they still want him in the lineup so he can learn and develop on the fly ??

not that I agree with it but at least the 2nd one I can understand because if you think Vitanen is ready for the pro game then you are mistaken.

As I've stated before, I'm a big Virtanen fan and I believe he will be more valuable In the future over Nylander and Ehlers. Virt will change games from ,hits , snipes to taking the puck hard to the net.

However , it is clear to see that he is still very very raw ! If we take off our homer glasses for a Second and dissect why the hitmen utilized Virt the way they did then we can see the flaws in his game. He is not a complete player yet. He is positionaly lost on defence , he is positionaly lost on offence when he doesn't have the puck and his board / cycle game is below par.

All of these can be taught and I hope Jake is developing a lot of these tools at practice by being around Pros and a great coach in Green.

However I dont think it will be beneficial for him or for Utica to have him In the current lineup and situation.

Utica should ice the team that gives them the best possible chance of winning And if that includes virt or Mc in the future then even better!

Good luck Utica ! Treat out boys well up there !!

 

[Proto]

Look, I would also like to see them both get in for all the reasons that have been stated in this thread. But I also think you can't just throw two 18 year old kids who have never played at the pro level into a new team, new systems, and new compete level ... into the 2nd round of the playoffs. It isn't fair to the team and tbh it isn't fair to J&J. If they go in and struggle in game 1 or worse, make a mistake that leads to a loss, that will be hard to come back from.

My preference is to hold them out for Game 1 and maybe Game 2 to allow them to watch the team play and learn the systems in practice. Then if the Comets need a change or a spark in Game 3 or 4 put them into a bottom 6 role. If they impress then move them up or increase their minutes.

It simply isn't fair to compare the scenario in Utica right now to adding a player like Nylander to the Marlies 4 months ago. Regular season is a world away from playoffs, *even* in the AHL. We want these kids to progress, not be thrown into the deep end and drown. A little patience never hurt a prospect's development.

That's reasonable, but then why isn't Hutton playing? It seems to me this is what the team was actively trying to avoid when they purchased their own AHL club. Considering how awful Sbisa is, I'd like them to be getting any LD prospect serious experience ASAP

 

[UticaHockey]

I don't think it would be functionally all that different. More pressure, but it's the same game, and these kids just finished up playing in the CHL playoffs -- in some cases against players so good they won't even see a second of ice time in the AHL. I just don't see the harm in putting McCann in for a scrub like Zalewski or playing Hutton or whathaveyou. Hopefully they do. It's more important to experience these levels of hockey than just to be part of an atmosphere IMHO.

In the past two days I've seen AHL players referred to as scrubs, junk and garbage. These are athletes who are gifted enough to play a sport in a league that many refer to the second or third highest in the world. If you want to debate that fine then I can easily state that it is the second best league in North America and yet these athletes are basically referred to as human trash by a few posters on here.

I wonder if the guys making these statements ever played the game and what level they played at?

 

[Proto]

But what is someone like Virtanen, who is an average scorer at the WHL level, going to bring? All of the forwards you're criticizing were as productive in junior 2+ years ago. They've grown since. Obviously Virtanen will become better than them but he's not right now and he's unlikely to get there over the course of a few games.

Let's keep in mind that Nylander was as productive in the SHL — a men's top league — as Virtanen was in the WHL. (Marlies also didn't finish 1st in their conference.)

The Comets have a lack of top AHL talent, not depth. That's why they don't score enough. They have probably the deepest forward roster 1-12. Two 18 year old prospects aren't going to bring that top talent.

I'm more interested in seeing McCann in for Zalewski and Hutton in on the third pairing/2nd unit PP.

I agree on JV -- there's a chance he gets eaten alive. But it would be a good reality check for the kid if that happens. If the rumours of his over-confidence are true, a bit of humble pie in some sheltered AHL minutes might be just the tonic.

 

[Tiranis]

I'm more interested in seeing McCann in for Zalewski and Hutton in on the third pairing/2nd unit PP.

I agree with that. I think McCann would definitely outplay Zalewski or at the very worst equal him. (And I'm not even that big on McCann. Zalewski's just the weakest player on forward, IMO.)

---

Another point to make: People want to develop these prospects but what's better: a) Getting all the way to the finals and further developing guys like Shinkaruk, Corrado, Clendening, Baertschi and Grenier, or b) Losing this round while giving games to every single prospect.

 

[Proto]

In the past two days I've seen AHL players referred to as scrubs, junk and garbage. These are athletes who are gifted enough to play a sport in a league that many refer to the second or third highest in the world. If you want to debate that fine then I can easily state that it is the second best league in North America and yet these athletes are basically referred to as human trash by a few posters on here.

I wonder if the guys making these statements ever played the game and what level they played at?

Scrub =! human trash. That's a particularly grotesque twisting of words.

The defensive posture of Comets fans is a bit unbearable at times. Complain when your players aren't played in the NHL and sit on the sidelines, bristle at the notion that prospects joining the AHL team should be in the lineup (interesting double standard), bristle at the notion that career AHL types playing out of position on the 4th line are "scrubs" relative to 1st round NHL draft choices, etc. It's a bit much.

It's a farm team for an NHL club for goodness sakes.

 

[opendoor]

maybe that poor attitude stemmed from getting gifted roster spots ahead of players who earned them all his life

Yeah, imagine all the backroom deals it must've required to get Arniel to sub in an elite CHLer to replace Pierre-Cedric Labrie and his 1 point in 17 AHL playoff games to that point.

Similarly, if McCann or Virtanen can't even be considered to replace someone like Zalewski or Bancks and his 1 assist in 30 AHL playoff games then there's something wrong there. Virtanen I can kind of buy given the holes in his game, but if they're really penciling him into the NHL roster next year he should absolutely be good enough to at least be given a shot in the AHL playoffs.

 

[Tiranis]

Bancks and his 1 assist in 30 AHL playoff

Bancks might not be great on the scoresheet but he's great on the PK and he pretty much saws off his minutes at ES. The problem for Virtanen is that he doesn't fit any role on this club.

The only guy he truly replaces is Jensen and he's not even playing.

 

[Tampacuseforever]

In the past two days I've seen AHL players referred to as scrubs, junk and garbage. These are athletes who are gifted enough to play a sport in a league that many refer to the second or third highest in the world. If you want to debate that fine then I can easily state that it is the second best league in North America and yet these athletes are basically referred to as human trash by a few posters on here.

I wonder if the guys making these statements ever played the game and what level they played at?

I couldn't agree more !!!! Nobody should be referred to as "scrub's, junk, or garbage" have some class people !!