Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Nope, Still Nothing ...

[Coastal Kev]

Kuhn's game bugs me. Too Fehr-like. He has size, speed, skill, and he uses none of them at the same time. He doesn't play with an edge and loses more battles than he should. With that size/reach, it's annoying to watch him go into a corner and just know there is no chance he's coming away with the puck.

And then he'll have that one shift every 10 games where he puts it together, only to disappear again.

He had a 15-25 game spurt during the cup run 2 years ago where he looked better and better each game. I really thought he would take a huge step forward last season but he instead regressed.

I'm not sure what he is, but your description of Fehr is spot on. There should be much more involvement than there is game in and game out.

I personally don't care about penalty killing since 97.4% of it is about desire. I'm sure Archie or countless other forward would be just as good as Kuhn is at killing penalties.

 

[Peat]

Granted, I have zero evidence to back this up, but I've always felt that it's easier (note: easier, not easy) to compensate for a missing star defenseman by playing a solid team defense than it is to compensate for missing a star forward who is relied on to score goals and break games open.

So I think the Pens would have a harder time winning in the playoffs if one of Crosby or Malkin missed the entire playoffs than the Pens had this past playoffs without Letang because I think the team (and Murray/Fleury's performance) covered for it. I'm not sure there's enough "offense by committee" to cover for losing a game breaker on offense.

It can be harder than winning a cup without Letang and still be possible. After all, we've done that.

If you told another team that they'd get one of the three best centres in the league, one of the league's best wing rosters, one of the best goalies, one of the better blue lines and three average Cs, would they think they had a shot at Stanley? That's potentially our roster minus one of Sid & Geno.

I'm not saying it would be easy or easier than what we've already done. But so hard its not worth having another top 6 capable C on the roster if possible? Is missing one of our centres that much more difficult than what we did last year?

 

[Empoleon8771]

For some reason, I feel like the Penguins would be able to get Haula from Vegas to be their 3C. It just might be blind optimism, but I have a feeling that most veterans on Vegas are available for draft picks and futures. Obviously not now, but in December or January, I feel like that would be a lot more possible.

If not Haula, I'm thinking this can be applied to Eakin too.

 

[Peat]

I don't disagree, but I don't think McKegg has it in him to keep up what he's doing right now. If he does, we have found a very good depth player and I'd love to know what clicked for him to all of a sudden be an NHL player after only playing 75 games in his first 6 or 7 professional seasons.

He's had 4 pro seasons prior to this one, not 6 or 7. This is season 5.

Two seasons with Toronto going nowhere - 4 games in 2 seasons. Then he goes to Florida and plays 15 games that season. Next season, he plays 46 NHL games with okay numbers when he's on Florida. He's had a steady upwards trajectory ever since leaving Toronto. It will be remarkable if he suddenly rockets into being a full time NHL 3C, but I don't think it should be a surprise that he's NHL capable at this point or anything.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I think Kuhnhackl gets a raw deal around here. A lot of our 4th liners, actually. They're pretty good, cheap like borscht, and young enough that they still have room to grow.

Reaves has room to grow?
Kuhn has room to grow?
Rowney has room to grow?

All those players are going to be who they are- they aren't changing their game as lumbering/lower skilled guys
Rowney is pretty fortunate that he plays C because if Cullen and Bonino were still around Mckegg would've taken his roster spot

Wilson and Archi are guys who have a higher ceiling, but they won't be doing that eating nachos.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's kinda funny with Kuhnhackl, because his production is actually pretty good overall, including this year. He's like a 26 points/82 game player over his career and has a 27 point pace this year so far, which are both lower end 3rd line numbers. However, the eye test doesn't support this at all. He's a jack of all trades kind of player, but that just makes him a vanilla and bland player. Kuhnhackl isn't good enough where being a "jack of all trades" is a good thing.

 

[BlackAndGold87]

For some reason, I feel like the Penguins would be able to get Haula from Vegas to be their 3C. It just might be blind optimism, but I have a feeling that most veterans on Vegas are available for draft picks and futures. Obviously not now, but in December or January, I feel like that would be a lot more possible.

If not Haula, I'm thinking this can be applied to Eakin too.

1st+Scott Wilson for Haulu?

 

[ColePens]

I do not feel Haula will be available and I think Vegas values him very high. But damn that would be sweet. There couldn't be a better fit. That would be one pricey trade.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I do not feel Haula will be available and I think Vegas values him very high. But damn that would be sweet. There couldn't be a better fit. That would be one pricey trade.

I feel like the deal that B&G said above isn't far off from what it would end up being. Based on past trades, I feel like a 1st for Haula isn't that far off from market value, maybe it's even a little high. I feel like a 1st and Wilson would at least get the conversation started with Vegas. If they don't want to move him at all, that all falls apart, but I'm not sure if Vegas should be making non essential pieces like Haula unavailable. He should only not move Fleury and any young players (mainly Tuch and Theodore).

That doesn't mean that he should shop anyone who doesn't have a long term future there, but if someone inquires about someone like Cody Eakin (who's the same age as Haula), McPhee wouldn't be smart to say no to that.

 

[Shady Machine]

He had a 15-25 game spurt during the cup run 2 years ago where he looked better and better each game. I really thought he would take a huge step forward last season but he instead regressed.

I'm not sure what he is, but your description of Fehr is spot on. There should be much more involvement than there is game in and game out.

I personally don't care about penalty killing since 97.4% of it is about desire. I'm sure Archie or countless other forward would be just as good as Kuhn is at killing penalties.

Desire is really important on the PK, but it's not close to 97%. It's not just about having the speed or desire to fill lanes, but about the smarts to be able to read the play and react properly. There is also a technique to shot blocking and while it can be taught, some are certainly better than others.

That said, being good on the PK can't be your only calling card to earn you a regular spot in the lineup.

I'd like to see Archie get a spot over Kuhn and see what he can do on the PK.

 

[billybudd]

Desire is really important on the PK, but it's not close to 97%. It's not just about having the speed or desire to fill lanes, but about the smarts to be able to read the play and react properly. There is also a technique to shot blocking and while it can be taught, some are certainly better than others.

Stick length is another variable, and probably has something to do with why Kuhnhackl's better at this than Wilson is (experience is also going to be a big factor).

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I feel like the deal that B&G said above isn't far off from what it would end up being. Based on past trades, I feel like a 1st for Haula isn't that far off from market value, maybe it's even a little high. I feel like a 1st and Wilson would at least get the conversation started with Vegas. If they don't want to move him at all, that all falls apart, but I'm not sure if Vegas should be making non essential pieces like Haula unavailable. He should only not move Fleury and any young players (mainly Tuch and Theodore).

That doesn't mean that he should shop anyone who doesn't have a long term future there, but if someone inquires about someone like Cody Eakin (who's the same age as Haula), McPhee wouldn't be smart to say no to that.

This draft is supposed to be very strong on the high end and depth-wise, so McPhee is probably planning an auction of his best vets at the TDL. Not sure I want to be involved in that. Also not sure what choice we have. I certainly imagine JR wants to do a hockey trade mid-season instead, as he seems pretty loathe to give up our picks in this draft. Picking up that 4th from VAN sure helped bolster our picks though, and considering our success rate for those middling picks, I'd almost rather give up our 1st than a package of the mid-round picks we have.

I'm just not sure we can take on a high cap hit player like Eakins or Bjugstad, I'd rather re-up PH. But if that ship has sailed, then I suppose those are options that we'd have less competition on due to those cap hits.

 

[Shady Machine]

Stick length is another variable, and probably has something to do with why Kuhnhackl's better at this than Wilson is (experience is also going to be a big factor).

Yup that's a good point. Sully gave Willy a pretty short lease, but I guess with how bad that line is at ES, the difference on the PK earns Kuhn a spot in the lineup.

 

[Shady Machine]

This draft is supposed to be very strong on the high end and depth-wise, so McPhee is probably planning an auction of his best vets at the TDL. Not sure I want to be involved in that. Also not sure what choice we have. I certainly imagine JR wants to do a hockey trade mid-season instead, as he seems pretty loathe to give up our picks in this draft. Picking up that 4th from VAN sure helped bolster our picks though, and considering our success rate for those middling picks, I'd almost rather give up our 1st than a package of the mid-round picks we have.

I'm just not sure we can take on a high cap hit player like Eakins or Bjugstad, I'd rather re-up PH. But if that ship has sailed, then I suppose those are options that we'd have less competition on due to those cap hits.

Why can't we do both? Bring in Bjugstad, re-sign Horny to 5.5MM and move Hagelin.

I don't see why Florida moves Bjugstad, but if they would, I think the Pens can make it work with the cap.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Kuhn's game bugs me. Too Fehr-like. He has size, speed, skill, and he uses none of them at the same time. He doesn't play with an edge and loses more battles than he should. With that size/reach, it's annoying to watch him go into a corner and just know there is no chance he's coming away with the puck.

And then he'll have that one shift every 10 games where he puts it together, only to disappear again.

There are some similarities to Fehr, for sure. But Kuhn's better on the forecheck and stronger along the wall than you're giving him credit for IMO. I think both are strengths actually. He makes some nice reads too.

The guy produces well and is a solid PKer at 25. I'm content with that for the 4th line.

Reaves has room to grow?
Kuhn has room to grow?
Rowney has room to grow?

All those players are going to be who they are- they aren't changing their game as lumbering/lower skilled guys
Rowney is pretty fortunate that he plays C because if Cullen and Bonino were still around Mckegg would've taken his roster spot

Wilson and Archi are guys who have a higher ceiling, but they won't be doing that eating nachos.

I think Archy, Kuhn, Rowney, and Wilson all have room to grow, yes. Not one of them has played more than 1 full NHL season, and each has done a pretty good job with the minutes they've had so far.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I don't disagree, but I don't think McKegg has it in him to keep up what he's doing right now. If he does, we have found a very good depth player and I'd love to know what clicked for him to all of a sudden be an NHL player after only playing 75 games in his first 6 or 7 professional seasons.

As I said, I don't expect him to keep up quite this level either. 41 points with none on the PP would have him in line with guys like Krejci and Monohan, which would be nuts. But if he can even maintain even a point every 3 games at ES/SH, that puts him in company with guys like Henrique, Bonino and Zajac in the 25-30 ES/SH point range. And that's him maintaining the ES scoring but never getting another SHP, so I don't think it's that unrealistic. With a combination of Sheary, Horny and Hagelin on his line with one of Schultz, Maatta, or Letang on the ice most of the time, he's bound to get some points just winning races then throwing pucks at the net or back to our D. I'd still prefer to bump him to 4C, but my main point is just that it's not a huge rush right now to make a deal asap.

As for how it could have happened so suddenly, I don't think it's that hard to imagine that playing in a bigger role on a team that fits his strengths so well would have a positive impact on him. Also Hornqvist, Sheary, and Hagelin have to be the best NHL linemates he's ever played with. This is a better opportunity than most guys ever get thanks to our center situation, hopefully he can take advantage of the chance and make JR look like a genius

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

As I said, I don't expect him to keep up quite this level either. 41 points with none on the PP would have him in line with guys like Krejci and Monohan, which would be nuts. But if he can even maintain even a point every 3 games at ES/SH, that puts him in company with guys like Henrique, Bonino and Zajac in the 25-30 ES/SH point range. And that's him maintaining the ES scoring but never getting another SHP, so I don't think it's that unrealistic. With a combination of Sheary, Horny and Hagelin on his line with one of Schultz, Maatta, or Letang on the ice most of the time, he's bound to get some points just winning races then throwing pucks at the net or back to our D. I'd still prefer to bump him to 4C, but my main point is just that it's not a huge rush right now to make a deal asap.

As for how it could have happened so suddenly, I don't think it's that hard to imagine that playing in a bigger role on a team that fits his strengths so well would have a positive impact on him. Also Hornqvist, Sheary, and Hagelin have to be the best NHL linemates he's ever played with. This is a better opportunity than most guys ever get thanks to our center situation, hopefully he can take advantage of the chance and make JR look like a genius

Yeah, McKegg playing as well as he has gives us some breathing room. If he can keep it up and we can keep winning, we can deal from a position of relative strength when a deal for a legit 3C comes along.

Nice surprise. Failing to get a 3C before the season had the potential to be pretty brutal for us.

 

[Empoleon8771]

This draft is supposed to be very strong on the high end and depth-wise, so McPhee is probably planning an auction of his best vets at the TDL. Not sure I want to be involved in that. Also not sure what choice we have. I certainly imagine JR wants to do a hockey trade mid-season instead, as he seems pretty loathe to give up our picks in this draft. Picking up that 4th from VAN sure helped bolster our picks though, and considering our success rate for those middling picks, I'd almost rather give up our 1st than a package of the mid-round picks we have.

I'm just not sure we can take on a high cap hit player like Eakins or Bjugstad, I'd rather re-up PH. But if that ship has sailed, then I suppose those are options that we'd have less competition on due to those cap hits.

I really wouldn't mind if JR got involved in a deadline auction for Vegas, to be honest. I don't care what it costs to get a good 3C if they get a good 3C, speaking reasonably of course (like no Sprong for example). If it involves getting in a bidding war for a guy like Haula and getting him for a 1st and Wilson, I'd be fine with that. I'd be fine with an overpayment if it brings in a semi long term solution that fits here.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Why can't we do both? Bring in Bjugstad, re-sign Horny to 5.5MM and move Hagelin.

I don't see why Florida moves Bjugstad, but if they would, I think the Pens can make it work with the cap.

Why can't we do both? Bring in Bjugstad, re-sign Horny to 5.5MM and move Hagelin.

I don't see why Florida moves Bjugstad, but if they would, I think the Pens can make it work with the cap.

I have no idea why Florida would move him, but most of the deals on the table are long shots. It's tough to make a hockey trade for a center, everyone needs them (except LV). Maybe the hold up to a deal with LV is they insist upon including one of their half dozen awful, expensive D men in the deal. Someone on TSN was alluding to that the other day.

As to PH, I'm increasingly concerned that this team will revert to the old "big lazy", perimeter mentality if he leaves. If we could sign him for 5.5, I'd give him as much term as he wants. It won't matter by the end anyways, we need him for the next few years, and if takes a few extra years to get it, that should be a no-brainer, despite the armchair cap wranglers who fret about spending 1m too much on the guy five years from now.

The much larger problem is not having him for the next couple of years.

 

[Shady Machine]

I have no idea why Florida would move him, but most of the deals on the table are long shots. It's tough to make a hockey trade for a center, everyone needs them (except LV). Maybe the hold up to a deal with LV is they insist upon including one of their half dozen awful, expensive D men in the deal. Someone on TSN was alluding to that the other day.

As to PH, I'm increasingly concerned that this team will revert to the old "big lazy", perimeter mentality if he leaves. If we could sign him for 5.5, I'd give him as much term as he wants. It won't matter by the end anyways, we need him for the next few years, and if takes a few extra years to get it, that should be a no-brainer, despite the armchair cap wranglers who fret about spending 1m too much on the guy five years from now.

The much larger problem is not having him for the next couple of years.

Good point on LV. It's funny because that was all self imposed.

As for Horny, you and I agree completely. I'll settle on term to bring the cap hit down. We absolutely need that guy to keep winning. He and Sid are the embodiment of Penguins hockey. Relentless work ethic and drive mixed with elite skill (in Sid's case) and insane compete to win (in Horny's case)

 

[REAVES]

He had a 15-25 game spurt during the cup run 2 years ago where he looked better and better each game. I really thought he would take a huge step forward last season but he instead regressed.

I'm not sure what he is, but your description of Fehr is spot on. There should be much more involvement than there is game in and game out.

I personally don't care about penalty killing since 97.4% of it is about desire. I'm sure Archie or countless other forward would be just as good as Kuhn is at killing penalties.

I believe Archie got dinged up in preseason. He left the game. Came back for on shift and hasn't been on the ice since. I think he would get claimed if we sent him down. I think there is untapped potential with Josh. He is fast, hits like a truck for a small player. He just hasn't gotten a chance. I would like to see Archie Sid Geuntzky for a game. I think he could be a good 3rd wheel. I think Archie is similar to Rust. Give the man a chance!!

 

[Riptide]

I don't disagree, but I don't think McKegg has it in him to keep up what he's doing right now. If he does, we have found a very good depth player and I'd love to know what clicked for him to all of a sudden be an NHL player after only playing 75 games in his first 6 or 7 professional seasons.

If he doesn't - and it would be asking a lot, you deal with it then. But the longer we wait, the more cap space we have to deal with.

 

[ColePens]

I feel like the deal that B&G said above isn't far off from what it would end up being. Based on past trades, I feel like a 1st for Haula isn't that far off from market value, maybe it's even a little high. I feel like a 1st and Wilson would at least get the conversation started with Vegas. If they don't want to move him at all, that all falls apart, but I'm not sure if Vegas should be making non essential pieces like Haula unavailable. He should only not move Fleury and any young players (mainly Tuch and Theodore).

That doesn't mean that he should shop anyone who doesn't have a long term future there, but if someone inquires about someone like Cody Eakin (who's the same age as Haula), McPhee wouldn't be smart to say no to that.

Just for the record. If a 1st and Wilson got Haula, i'd drive Wilson to Vegas, pick Haula up, and drive him back to Pittsburgh. I would probably even pay for their flights if we wanted that to be quicker. I value Haula so high and this team would be ridiculous with Haula as the 3C.

I remember for YEARS my buddy and I, who hopefully is randomly lurking and reading this site, wanted Hornqvist on this team because we knew he'd fit and get the crap goals we needed. I'll have the same feeling if Haula ever ends up here in the 412.

 

[ColePens]

Oh and if you haven't heard me say this 49301934021 times, I would immediately re-sign Hornqvist. I think the energy he brings and how he gets those ugly goals is a difference maker on this team.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Just for the record. If a 1st and Wilson got Haula, i'd drive Wilson to Vegas, pick Haula up, and drive him back to Pittsburgh. I would probably even pay for their flights if we wanted that to be quicker. I value Haula so high and this team would be ridiculous with Haula as the 3C.

I remember for YEARS my buddy and I, who hopefully is randomly lurking and reading this site, wanted Hornqvist on this team because we knew he'd fit and get the crap goals we needed. I'll have the same feeling if Haula ever ends up here in the 412.

Maybe I'm just undervaluing Haula, but based on past trades, I really don't think a 1st and Wilson would be that far off for Haula. The main comparison I'm using for him is the Perron trade, which is kinda flawed, but many would agree that a 2nd line winger and a good 3C are roughly equal in value. Many would have said that Sutter for Perron was a fair deal in 2014, which would put Sutter's value at a 1st and Klinkhammer. I feel like Sutter in 2014 and Haula now are comparable in value.

I feel like even if it turns into a bidding war, I wouldn't be upset at the final price. It may be super pricey, like a 1st and Gustavsson or another one of the Penguins best prospects (outside of Sprong), but I'd be fine with overpaying to bring in a player like Haula.