The remnants of the Chris Pronger trade

[KaseMeOutside]

During the 2009 draft the Anaheim Ducks traded Chris Pronger and Ryan Dingle to the Philadelphia Flyers for Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa, and 2 1st round picks

Anaheim later traded Lupul as part of a deal for Beauchemin

Sbisa was later traded as part of a deal for Kesler

the draft picks turned to Palmieri and Mat Clark(Anaheim traded down in 09 and used the additional 2nd to pick Clark) and Emerson Etem

Palmieri and Etem were used to acquire Carl Hagelin, Julius Nattinen, Garrett Metcalf and a 3rd round pick next year

Click to read more...

 

[salsa man]

Pretty much a wash.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

So it's a gift that keeps on giving? There's another draft pick still left?! Wow!!!!

 

[George Binks]

Dingle!!!

 

[Juicy Pop]

A bit of a wash for both sides ever since Pronger went down.

At least they were able to bundle his contract with the 2nd pick [N.Grossman] from the Richards trade and turn it into Sam Gagner.

 

[Paul4587]

I remember being ripped for saying that we hadn't won the trade until we knew what we had in all the young guys. Sbisa was a bust, Etem was a fringe guy and Palmieri was decent but inconsistent. Lupul had to be packaged with Gardiner to get Beauchemin, he had negative value for us. At least we now have Hagelin to show for it still.

Pronger carried the flyers to a cup finals and gave them 2 and a half years of an elite defensive presence before suffering a fluke eye injury that ended his career.

Not a great ending for either side really.

 

[Papaspud]

Sean plays a mean game of bingo, and is a helluva a nice guy. We never should've traded him.

 

[TheJoeMan]

I remember being ripped for saying that we hadn't won the trade until we knew what we had in all the young guys. Sbisa was a bust, Etem was a fringe guy and Palmieri was decent but inconsistent. Lupul had to be packaged with Gardiner to get Beauchemin, he had negative value for us. At least we now have Hagelin to show for it still.

Pronger carried the flyers to a cup finals and gave them 2 and a half years of an elite defensive presence before suffering a fluke eye injury that ended his career.

Not a great ending for either side really.

But at the same time you have to look at the fact that Murray wasn't going to be able to retain him so he had to get the best deal he could. Hindsight is 20/20 but considering that deal helped facilitate getting another four and a half good years out of Beauch and having Kesler and Hagelin I'm happy with how it all turned out. The team that gets the best player wins the deal so there was really no winning for us. It was about maximizing assets and I think those assets are still paying off for us.

 

[8inblack]

The only reason this trade looks good is because Pronger got hurt.

The trade irritates me to this day. The Ducks were not far away at all from a cup in 08-09. Correct me if I'm wrong but that year we essentially decided to trade Pronger to bring in a sure fire #2 center shakehead) Koivu after we had many failed experiments. I don't know how this team would look now if he had stayed but not getting a young center for him and relying Koivu is one of the biggest Mistakes the Ducks have made since the new ownership.

The team kept trying to make him something he just wasn't anymore, a second line center.

 

[TheJoeMan]

The only reason this trade looks good is because Pronger got hurt.

The trade irritates me to this day. The Ducks were not far away at all from a cup in 08-09. Correct me if I'm wrong but that year we essentially decided to trade Pronger to bring in a sure fire #2 center shakehead) Koivu after we had many failed experiments. I don't know how this team would look now if he had stayed but not getting a young center for him and relying Koivu is one of the biggest Mistakes the Ducks have made since the new ownership.

The team kept trying to make him something he just wasn't anymore, a second line center.

That's a stretch. I hardly believe a team that finished six points out of a playoff spot (coming off a year where they were the eighth seed) was a Chris Pronger away from another Cup run. Pronger was traded because Murray knew this team was rebuilding and he wasn't going to be able to extend Pronger. He had to maximize his assets for such a player.

And where do you think this team would have been with Lupul and Gardiner instead of Beauchemin? Would be a team good enough over the years to entice Kesler to waive his no-trade to come here? What if he had to part with Fowler or Vatanen instead of using Sbisa? Hell if we kept Pronger I imagine he'd have been at least a little bit better that year and we don't get to draft Fowler at all. We might have gotten stuck with McIlrath or Forbort.

All of the assets acquired in the Pronger deal have been used to make us a contender over the last three years. We absolutely would have lost Pronger one way or the other by the end of the 09-10 season and to me that would have been a huge mistake.

 

[salsa man]

The only reason this trade looks good is because Pronger got hurt.

The trade irritates me to this day. The Ducks were not far away at all from a cup in 08-09. Correct me if I'm wrong but that year we essentially decided to trade Pronger to bring in a sure fire #2 center shakehead) Koivu after we had many failed experiments. I don't know how this team would look now if he had stayed but not getting a young center for him and relying Koivu is one of the biggest Mistakes the Ducks have made since the new ownership.

The team kept trying to make him something he just wasn't anymore, a second line center.

No.

Pronger was traded because they couldn't afford to give him a very expensive, very risky 35+ contract. Also, if we kept Pronger, we most likely wouldn't have Fowler and Lindholm right now.

Koivu was also a perfectly fine #2 center in his first two seasons in Anaheim.

 

[8inblack]

That's a stretch. I hardly believe a team that finished six points out of a playoff spot (coming off a year where they were the eighth seed) was a Chris Pronger away from another Cup run. Pronger was traded because Murray knew this team was rebuilding and he wasn't going to be able to extend Pronger. He had to maximize his assets for such a player.

And where do you think this team would have been with Lupul and Gardiner instead of Beauchemin? Would be a team good enough over the years to entice Kesler to waive his no-trade to come here? What if he had to part with Fowler or Vatanen instead of using Sbisa? Hell if we kept Pronger I imagine he'd have been at least a little bit better that year and we don't get to draft Fowler at all. We might have gotten stuck with McIlrath or Forbort.

All of the assets acquired in the Pronger deal have been used to make us a contender over the last three years. We absolutely would have lost Pronger one way or the other by the end of the 09-10 season and to me that would have been a huge mistake.

I'm saying I would have preferred to go all in the following season (much like this season) or trade Pronger at deadline if it looked like it wasn't going to happen. The most irritating part is that we had a golden, I mean golden, oppurtunity to get a good #2C.(Eric Christensen was the #2 that year for reference) Instead we went with Koivu which was a just an awful mistake that hadn't been fixed until we got Kesler.

 

[salsa man]

(Eric Christensen was the #2 that year for reference)

No, it was Andrew Ebbett.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

It doesn't look great, but there was a good bit of bad luck involved in this one (obviously for both sides). I'm not even talking about the picks not developing, I'm talking more about Lupul, who was a major part of this deal who turned into a guy with next to no value. We all know Lupul now as a guy who can't stay healthy, but that really wasn't the case at the time. He had two separate semi-serious injuries at that point of his career, a concussion and a sprained ankle, neither of which were that bad. Then he came here, had the whole back dilemma, and was never the same.

Lupul himself turns this entire deal around. I mean, that's a semi-expensive(at the time) 20+ goal winger entering his prime, and if not for the injuries he'd be a good first line left wing.

Philly making the playoffs by a goal and going to the finals didn't exactly help, either. A lot of possibilities on how that could have changed things.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

That's a stretch. I hardly believe a team that finished six points out of a playoff spot (coming off a year where they were the eighth seed) was a Chris Pronger away from another Cup run. Pronger was traded because Murray knew this team was rebuilding and he wasn't going to be able to extend Pronger. He had to maximize his assets for such a player.

And where do you think this team would have been with Lupul and Gardiner instead of Beauchemin? Would be a team good enough over the years to entice Kesler to waive his no-trade to come here? What if he had to part with Fowler or Vatanen instead of using Sbisa? Hell if we kept Pronger I imagine he'd have been at least a little bit better that year and we don't get to draft Fowler at all. We might have gotten stuck with McIlrath or Forbort.

All of the assets acquired in the Pronger deal have been used to make us a contender over the last three years. We absolutely would have lost Pronger one way or the other by the end of the 09-10 season and to me that would have been a huge mistake.

the year before anaheim was literally a single bounce away from beating detroit and probably would have won the cup that year, or atleast got to the finals.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

the year before anaheim was literally a single bounce away from beating detroit and probably would have won the cup that year, or atleast got to the finals.

It was also a team in such cap hell that they needed to put a $1.65 million cap hit on long-term injured reserve just to call up a rookie, with not a whole lot on the way in terms of prospects. There was no way Prongermayer would have existed after that season.

In retrospect, having Scotty retire and keeping Pronger probably would have been the best course of action. Then again, who knows, maybe Pronger let it be known he wouldn't be going through any kind of re-tool. Tough to blame Murray if his hand was forced.

 

[TheJoeMan]

the year before anaheim was literally a single bounce away from beating detroit and probably would have won the cup that year, or atleast got to the finals.

And the next year they missed the playoffs. Like I said earlier, do you think Pronger alone was the difference between a team that missed the playoffs by six points (which put us in a position to draft Fowler) and a serious Cup contender? Sure that previous run was exciting but we still squeaked into the playoffs to begin with. It was a team in transition and holding onto to Pronger only to either lose him to free agency or trade him at the deadline for a lesser package would have been a lot more detrimental to this team than what actually transpired.

 

[Getzmonster]

I think you have to look more to Murray's bosses on this one. It was the Samuelis that opened the wallets to green light Burke on bringing Pronger and big ticket players in, and it was most likely their directive to Murray that he get the team back within a certain healthy budget range that dictated the eventual Pronger trade. Signing him to that long term retirement contract might have seemed good for the short term, but with the plan to re-tool the team, restock the farm, and rebuild the team's depth through the draft, keeping Pronger in the long term was counter to that goal. Trading him for futures was the right call all things considered. I think it's also worth noting that Henry S. was in a little legal trouble circa 2008-9 and had to step out of his involvement with some of the team's decision making and financials. I have no idea what exactly he was or wasn't involved in with during that situation, but it could have had an impact on the financial flexibility of the ownership and Murray's ability to spend around that time.

We came out OK. I'm sure if you follow the trail of many big trades involving quantity over quality you'll see similar outcomes. Having Hagelin and Kesler to show for it ain't so bad. Murray more than made up for it with the Bobby Ryan trade anyhow.

 

[Paul4587]

I don't think you can attribute Kesler to the Pronger deal ark all. Sbisa was a throw in. Bonino and the 1st were the real assets there.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

But at the same time you have to look at the fact that Murray wasn't going to be able to retain him so he had to get the best deal he could.
It was about maximizing assets and I think those assets are still paying off for us.

No.

Pronger was traded because they couldn't afford to give him a very expensive, very risky 35+ contract. Also, if we kept Pronger, we most likely wouldn't have Fowler and Lindholm right now.

It was also a team in such cap hell that they needed to put a $1.65 million cap hit on long-term injured reserve just to call up a rookie, with not a whole lot on the way in terms of prospects. There was no way Prongermayer would have existed after that season.

In retrospect, having Scotty retire and keeping Pronger probably would have been the best course of action. Then again, who knows, maybe Pronger let it be known he wouldn't be going through any kind of re-tool. Tough to blame Murray if his hand was forced.

I think you have to look more to Murray's bosses on this one. It was the Samuelis that opened the wallets to green light Burke on bringing Pronger and big ticket players in, and it was most likely their directive to Murray that he get the team back within a certain healthy budget range that dictated the eventual Pronger trade. Signing him to that long term retirement contract might have seemed good for the short term, but with the plan to re-tool the team, restock the farm, and rebuild the team's depth through the draft, keeping Pronger in the long term was counter to that goal. Trading him for futures was the right call all things considered. I think it's also worth noting that Henry S. was in a little legal trouble circa 2008-9 and had to step out of his involvement with some of the team's decision making and financials. I have no idea what exactly he was or wasn't involved in with during that situation, but it could have had an impact on the financial flexibility of the ownership and Murray's ability to spend around that time.

Fiscially, we were in a bind. Thanks Burkie! Cupboard-wise we were bare. Again, thanks, Burkie!

It was a necessary move. You know how like all those cap teams had to get rid of its players a la Hawks this year (should have been last year too). We fell into that rut from Burkie. I'm happy with the cup, but realized doing it that way was wreckless. I don't like being a flash of light to never be seen again. I'd like sustained success. I'm quite happy with Bob's re-building on the fly construction to maintain sustained success.

From the drafts alone, because we weren't all that great due to lack of talent on the ice as well as in the pipeline, we were able replenish the cupboard and talent on NHL ice.

The Pronger trade kept us afloat as well as restock our cupboard. As the OP denoted:

Parts to re-acquire Beauch was great! He also helped in the mentoring of both Fowler and Magnus.

Parts to acquire Kesler... i'm still amazed at that one.

But Bob did a lot of trading. In a little unknown trade in the same year of the Prongs trade, we acquired Bonino from the sharks by trading away one of the components of the shutdown line Travis Moen. Bones was part of the package for Kesler.

Bob's tendencies of looking toward the future re-surfaced in the trading away of Bobby Ryan. We actually got the Sens' first round pick, which eventually ended up becoming a top 10 pick. So we had two #1's that year. We sent our original pick (not the Sens) in a package for Kesler.

It's pretty crazy that we're still dealing with components that are/were still a part of the Pronger trade. Thanks for re-visiting this, OP.

 

[snarktacular]

Moving Pronger was the right thing to do. If he really needed a contract like that, it was a ticking time bomb. Yeah the return tree is a little underwhelming.

In the end, if you go for magic beans sometimes they don't sprout. My main problem is that I had hoped for a 2C in return for Pronger. Instead they tried to go FA (Koivu) and draft (Holland). Kind of like with the Bobby trade, where I had hoped they would try to get a high-end D. It gets into a philosophy of trying to focus on needs vs value.

 

[Sojourn]

Moving Pronger was the right thing to do. If he really needed a contract like that, it was a ticking time bomb. Yeah the return tree is a little underwhelming.

In the end, if you go for magic beans sometimes they don't sprout. My main problem is that I had hoped for a 2C in return for Pronger. Instead they tried to go FA (Koivu) and draft (Holland). Kind of like with the Bobby trade, where I had hoped they would try to get a high-end D. It gets into a philosophy of trying to focus on needs vs value.

I'm not sure it was ever that realistic to get a high-end D for Bobby. Certainly not without adding from our end. He was a one dimensional winger, albeit a good one, but I think teams are just reluctant to move high-end D. Your best bet would, probably, be a prospect defenseman.

 

[snarktacular]

I meant a high-end D prospect.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

I don't think you can attribute Kesler to the Pronger deal ark all. Sbisa was a throw in. Bonino and the 1st were the real assets there.

You still shouldn't, but I don't think you can call him a throw in. Benning locked him up long-term for very good money, he clearly valued him quite a bit. Willie Desjardins, who coached against Sbisa in the Dub, likely also had a big say.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Moving Pronger was the right thing to do. If he really needed a contract like that, it was a ticking time bomb. Yeah the return tree is a little underwhelming.

In the end, if you go for magic beans sometimes they don't sprout. My main problem is that I had hoped for a 2C in return for Pronger. Instead they tried to go FA (Koivu) and draft (Holland). Kind of like with the Bobby trade, where I had hoped they would try to get a high-end D. It gets into a philosophy of trying to focus on needs vs value.

I know we all hope certain pieces can be landed, but at the end of the day value comes first. The Bobby trade was for three wingers, something that wasn't of need at all, and is looking like a massive steal. Could you imagine if Bob would've held out for Jared Cowan? That would've been awful.