Prospect Info: The Real Value of: Kapanen, Johnsson, and Leivo

[ottomaddox]

Ok I know this is not the right forum to talk about trade proposals on the main board, but man did you peeps ever hang me out to dry. That's ok. I can handle the insults and rejections. I had a feeling some my Leaf-related proposals would be rejected. I didn't think it would get THAT much anger/ reaction. Is salt from the Tavares signing?

Anyway, it's time to pose the question in a safe/supporting environment.

What is the real value of Kapanen, Johnsson, and Leivo in a trade?

I would like to know who you feel is the best value and most expendable for Dubas to use in a trade for a defenseman?

Click to read more...

 

[Liminality]

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/thre...ews-hello-please-give-us-news.2515921/page-25
?

 

[indigobuffalo]

The value of each IMO:

Kapanen: Hehas elite speed which is becoming more and more highly prized among GMs. He has been considered a scoring forward throughout his development but due to the wing depth on the Leafs he’s been forced into the bottom six.

Still he’s got several clutch goals including the go ahead SH goal in game 7 vs. the Bruins at the end of the 2nd.

If you’re not getting a middling 1st and B prospect, then you’re not discussing a deal, and honestly the Leafs wouldn’t settle even for that.

Shanahan played with Kappy’s father and heavily scouted Kapanen in the only draft Shanahan was the decision maker on. He opted for the son of another former line mate, Michael something-or-other.

There is a reason Kapanen was included in the Kessel trade. This is a kid that Shanahan knows he can trust.

Johnsson: AHL MVP on a Calder winner should be worth something, but he doesn’t have a large enough resume at the NHL level and his lack of exposure and the length of time it took for him to come to the AHL, nevermind his draft position (though that shouldn’t matter!) all factor into Johnsson probably not attracting too much value.

You’d be very lucky to be offered 2x 2nd round picks even though he’s still a great producing cost-controlled asset.

Leivo: I mean, the press-box treatment has done wonders for his value. You’re going to get cents on the dollar because of his horrid usage. “Well he can’t crack the lineup so he’s no use to us.” will be a common refrain.

I think this is a case where you either flip him for a 3rd or 4th and really press hard to make it conditional on production to become a 2nd. Like 20 goals converts to 2nd.

Otherwise you just gotta play the kid and see what happens.


Now, speaking to what I know you’re after, a top 2 RHD, none of these guys are sensible fits. They’re all, at best, components of a trade for a top 2 RHD. And HF’ers really hate quantity for quality proposals.

I would suggest you spend more time checking out Liljegren videos to calm yourself.

 

[Battle Lin]

we will see, all 3 should make team as our 13 forwards

 

[ponder]

Kapanen - mid-to-late 1st, but worth more to us, we need cheap, solid 2-way wingers

Johnsson - late 1st or early 2nd. Worth more to us though for the same reasons

Leivo - very little value, maybe a 4th round pick. Doesn’t seem like he’ll make it as an NHLer IMO

 

[ponder]

Wow, checked out one of your proposals on the trade board, just terrible. You weren’t trolling? You actually thought this was in any way remotely reasonable for the Ducks?

To TOR
Nick Ritchie
Josh Mason
Future Considerations

To ANA
Andreas Johnnson
Rasmus Sandin
Jeremy Bracco

 

[Boutette]

Until they've actually gotten the change to play extensively above minimal 4th line usage its hard to say what their actual value is. Despite Leivo's press box banishment, he's the only one of the three who's managed to produce when given the opportunity, such as when he was put on Kadri's line for 10 or so games back in 2016-2017. As the other two haven't really been given the chance to play much with decent linemates, we won't really know their true value until some time next year, if neither of them are press boxed or aren't allowed to play above minimal 4th line usage.

 

[Advanced stats]

Wow, checked out one of your proposals on the trade board, just terrible. You weren’t trolling? You actually thought this was in any way remotely reasonable for the Ducks?

Montour for kapanan +2nd was probably worse..

 

[Buds17]

I'd think Leivo is the most expendable as the least likely of the three to be in the lineup (I consider Ennis as his main competition though). If so, I'd consider moving him if it doesn't look like he'll reach the 80 career NHL games needed to avoid becoming a UFA.

I'd view Kapanen as the one who'd bring back the most in trade, having the most NHL experience (incl. playoffs), being the youngest, and drafted as a 1st rounder.

 

[ottomaddox]

Wow, checked out one of your proposals on the trade board, just terrible. You weren’t trolling? You actually thought this was in any way remotely reasonable for the Ducks?

Well no. I wasn't full on trolling, but I was curious to see how people feel about Johnsson, Kap, etc.

They don't think much, but they are pretty wound tightly/insecure. Why are they wound tightly? Why so threatened by a silly proposal?

 

[biotk]

Is salt from the Tavares signing?

The reality is the two proposals I saw from you were simply bad. Manson is a really damn good D who fills a unique role on the Ducks. The Leafs are not getting him (neither is anyone else). Montour is over-rated on HF boards, but not by much. He won't come cheap - just as Dermott or Liljegren wouldn't.

How about an Anaheim - Toronto trade with either Kalle Kossila plus a 2nd for Dermott? or Kevin Roy plus a second for Liljegren?

What is the real value of Kapanen, Johnsson, and Leivo in a trade?

The three of them combined for 16 points in 63 games (and are 25, 23 and soon to be 22). Few people outside of Leafs fans will have watched them play, or if they have they probably didn't notice them because they are paying attention to their own players, not the Leafs' 4 liners. As such the value for each on HF main boards will be about what Sosh returned.

None of them have been given an opportunity to show that they should be worth much. I hope they do so this season, but they haven't yet.

I would like to know who you feel is the best value and most expendable for Dubas to use in a trade for a defenseman?

No one. We have plenty who can play on the 3rd pairing. A top 4 D is going to cost too much. Perhaps they could trade Gardiner for picks that might be part of a trade for a top-4 RHD. Perhaps they could trade one or more of those 3 for picks that could included in such a trade.

I don't think it is happening, and I think the obsession with getting a top 4D without giving up much in return is foolish. I think that if he Leafs do manage to get a top 4D it will be due to unusual circumstances - for instance if the Oilers can't afford a bridge deal with Nurse, the Leafs might be able to offer the most useful return for the Oilers.

 

[Deebo]

I don't think any of them have much trade value right now.

57GP, 22P for Leivo
55GP, 10P Kapanen
9GP, 3P Johnsson

I think Kapanen and Johnsson have top 6 potential but they need prove that before anyone will give the Leafs antything of real value for them in a trade.

We're better off keeping them for now and either keeping them long term or dealing them if and when their performance prices them out of Toronto.

 

[as Pure as Evil]

its a weird situation with all 3 . since they have shown flashes of what they can do in the nhl. however Until they have a full season under there belts no one is gonna give you much unless they see the same thing you do in the players. On that Note

Playing time and teammates will also be brought in to consideration. so say
our 3rd line looks something along the lines of

for argument sake im gonna post the lines I think we will see.

Marleau - AM - Nylander
Hyman/Johnsson - Jt - Marner
Johnsson/lievo/Hyman - Kadri - Kap/Brown
Lievo/Johnsson- Lindholm - kap/Brown
extras - Moore Engvall Jooris and Ennis I just see him being on the team . ( edit) If Grundy impresses in spring it may just make lievo expendable non the less

However if one of our centers get injured I would love to see what Johnsson - Nylander - Kap could do.

If Kap establishes himself as a 3rd line scorer with higher upside then I say he will garner quite a bit. same goes for johnsson and Lievo but if they are stuck on the 4th line with minimal minutes you will see decreased value for the fact they are wingers.

With that said if Lievo doesn't do something special in camp I think he will be tossed for a late pick instead of losing him to the waiver wire. he can score goals and there will be a team willing to give up a late pick for him.

Johnsson is the wild card. he's kind of like a swiss army knife good at everything and if he is given the minutes and gets the right chemisty he could have one hell of a break out season. not sure if he can be considered for the calder but that's the type of season im expecting from him. if hyman or marleau get hurt or fizzle at the start I wouldn't be surprised to see him on the top 2 lines. but until they have that full season none of them will hold great value. or atleast not that value us fans have for them.

I really want Lievo to succeed and I would love for him to be put in the Hull/O.V spot on the power play 5 feet of ice with one purpose be ready to one time a pass I think if given the right situation 20+ goals isn't out of the realm for him.

the worth of these players are more to the team then to trade them till they can establish themselves in the league

 

[TOGuy14]

Kapanen's floor is Paul Byron, but I think he can be a better Grabner at the end of the day.

Johnsson I haven't seen enough of to make up my mind.

Leivo I think can be a Clark MacArthur type of player if given the opportunity.

 

[PuckMagi]

All three guys would be middle six wingers on most NHL teams right now. I doubt they are being valued that highly because they haven't been used like that on the Leafs.

It would be easy enough to showcase any of them by putting them with Matthews/Nylander/Tavares/Marner... but I don't think we're looking to trade them. We need some cheep wingers who are good enough to play with elite talent... so really happy to have all 3 on the roster.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Johnsson and Kapanen are NOT going to be traded. What I mean by that is that they're low-key great prospects. They're prospects that don't have a name for themselves as up-and-coming prospects, and that's not their fault; they're just super underrated right now. Leaf fans, and especially Kappy/Johnsson fans know how good they are.

ONCE they play at least one full season in the NHL, THEN they will have great NHL value and will be available for a trade for a top-4D (Again, we Leaf fans know they'll be great middle-6 forwards or even top-6 forwards, but the rest of the league doesn't know this).

Right now if you put them in any deal for a top-4D, everyone will laugh.

 

[ponder]

Well no. I wasn't full on trolling, but I was curious to see how people feel about Johnsson, Kap, etc.

They don't think much, but they are pretty wound tightly/insecure. Why are they wound tightly? Why so threatened by a silly proposal?

It’s not people being tightly wound/insecure, it’s just a really bad proposal. Try to make these things balanced, where each team benefits equally. This proposal is basically Leafs spare parts for an extremely valuable, stud dman (Manson), a pretty decent young power forward (Ritchie), and for some reason future considerations too.

If you don’t want your proposals to get mocked, you need to make them WAY more realistic.

 

[Menzinger]

Kapanen will have the highest, based on potential and development path. A mid to late 1st, or a Dermott (before he made the NHL) type D man.bit surprised at he reaction in this thread to his perceived value - he’s still just 22, and so his age +pedigree will boost his trade value.

Johnsson’s value will likely spike if he can show that he can be an impact player in the NHL, but especially based on his recent playoffs in the AHL his value likely isn’t too far behind Kapanen.

Leivo has the least,m due to lack of playing time. Probably around a 3rd or 4th.

 

[DoobieDubas]

K & J=Lets see

Levio is an add for a trade/maybe 13th forward for depth again/most likely traded for a future

 

[Nithoniniel]

There are two things that doom most proposals:

1) Not taking opponent team needs into account.
2) Trying to sell quantity for quality.

For example, the Manson proposal. Anaheim is still trying to compete, so they won't sell him unless they get an equivalent piece back in a position they really need. Depending on how they view Kesler long-term, that's likely a borderline elite winger they would need to get back.

 

[ottomaddox]

There are two things that doom most proposals:

1) Not taking opponent team needs into account.
2) Trying to sell quantity for quality.

For example, the Manson proposal. Anaheim is still trying to compete, so they won't sell him unless they get an equivalent piece back in a position they really need. Depending on how they view Kesler long-term, that's likely a borderline elite winger they would need to get back.

1. Well I was offering speed and youth in the trade (I don't see that in Getlaf, Perry, Ritchie, Eaves, etc.). Eaves, Perry, and Getzlaf will show signs of slowing down soon. Sandin was also in the trade who is a D of the future. Bracco is not crap. He will probably be an NHLer in his lifetime.

2. Quantity trades exist. TOR was involved with one a few years ago: Grabner for 5 pieces. It's not earth shattering, but it's a hockey trade.


Trying to fleece a team is not always intentional. It can just happen because of the results that occur from each players' new circumstance.

I don't think OTT ever dreamed of how the Duchene trade (3 way) would turn out.

I also think when ANA and TOR traded Beauchemin/Gardiner/Lupul it was perceived to be mutually beneficial. ANA's benefit was stable, and TOR's had its' peaks and valleys.

Would you do this trade if you were BUF?

To TOR
Dave Andreychuk
Darren Puppa
1st round pick

To BUF
Grant Fuhr
Conditional 5th round pick

Risky to put a one-sided proposal out there, but look at what may happen.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Edit: Nvm.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

1. Well I was offering speed and youth in the trade (I don't see that in Getlaf, Perry, Ritchie, Eaves, etc.). Eaves, Perry, and Getzlaf will show signs of slowing down soon. Sandin was also in the trade who is a D of the future. Bracco is not crap. He will probably be an NHLer in his lifetime.

2. Quantity trades exist. TOR was involved with one a few years ago: Grabner for 5 pieces. It's not earth shattering, but it's a hockey trade.


Trying to fleece a team is not always intentional. It can just happen because of the results that occur from each players' new circumstance.

I don't think OTT ever dreamed of how the Duchene trade (3 way) would turn out.

I also think when ANA and TOR traded Beauchemin/Gardiner/Lupul it was perceived to be mutually beneficial. ANA's benefit was stable, and TOR's had its' peaks and valleys.

Would you do this trade if you were BUF?

To TOR
Dave Andreychuk
Darren Puppa
1st round pick

To BUF
Grant Fuhr
Conditional 5th round pick

Risky to put a one-sided proposal out there, but look at what may happen.

You're not a GM so you're not taking any risk or getting any value from said risk, all you're doing is antagonizing people with a trade that doesn't have equivalent value. All it does is annoy other fan bases and lead to more people commenting look what the Leafs think.

What do you get out of doing that?

 

[ottomaddox]

You're not a GM so you're not taking any risk or getting any value from said risk, all you're doing is antagonizing people with a trade that doesn't have equivalent value. All it does is annoy other fan bases and lead to more people commenting look what the Leafs think.

What do you get out of doing that?

Nothing. Look at what's going on in the trade rumour thread right now. The Montour for Nylander thread has now created a Leaf Pack with a bloodlust. Trolling? I don't think that was the intent, but no one wants to trade and no one likes it for Toronto (all of a sudden).

 

[biotk]

Nothing. Look at what's going on in the trade rumour thread right now. The Montour for Nylander thread has now created a Leaf Pack with a bloodlust. Trolling? I don't think that was the intent, but no one wants to trade and no one likes it for Toronto (all of a sudden).

The trade rumour thread is a waste of time for proposals. Almost all fans are extremely biased. Almost all fans extremely over-value their own players. Almost all fans have very limited knowledge about opposing team needs and players.