The Randy Lee Debacle | Part II

[DrunkUncleDenis]

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If he's acquitted, or charged, either way this will continue to be what comes to mind about RL for the rest of his time with the organization .......... so it's probably best that he is shown the door, or asked to walk out of it, on his own.

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[Stylizer1]

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Yes because all victims of false accusations should be found guilty anyway.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Yes because all victims of false accusations should be found guilty anyway.

Are you saying that these accusations are false?

 

[Stylizer1]

Are you saying that these accusations are false?

I am saying if they are false then the guy deserves his life back.

Tunoc said either way he should be fired or he should resign.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

I am saying if they are false then the guy deserves his life back.

Tunoc said either way he should be fired or he should resign.

That seems incredibly unlikely. Wasn't Lee's lawyer's defense that the shoulder rub didn't constitute harassment? I didn't read anything about Lee and the defense denying what took place, just that its not an act worthy of the charges.

From the Sun article:

Cambria argued the charges against Lee are legally insufficient because rubbing shoulders is not “assaultive conduct” on the level of a “strike, shove or kick,” and “there is nothing there that supports an intent to harass, annoy or harm.”

“There’s no crime alleged, there’s no offence alleged,” Cambria said outside the courtroom. “The facts are insufficient to support the charges. It’s as simple as that.”

 

[Stylizer1]

That seems incredibly unlikely. Wasn't Lee's lawyer's defense that the shoulder rub didn't constitute harassment? I didn't read anything about Lee and the defense denying what took place, just that its not an act worthy of the charges.

Maybe because I don't really care about the story I am misinformed on the specifics. I read it like either way if innocent or guilty he should go. Didn't really follow the other thread.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Maybe because I don't really care about the story I am misinformed on the specifics. I read it like either way if innocent or guilty he should go. Didn't really follow the other thread.

Innocent and not guilty are different though. He could easily be found not guilty to the 2nd degree harassment charges but it doesn't mean what took place didn't happen. If he did make lewd comments to him about being aroused, he should still be fired regardless of the court's decision.

Even if he was completely innocent and the guy made everything up, which again it doesn't seem like Cambria is trying to argue, he could still just be fired based on his job performance. He's been awful as GM of Bingo and Belleville and there's really no way around that.

 

[Tuna99]

The Sens are sticking by Randy Lee and trying to trade Erik Karlsson

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I say Randy was saying something he should not have said... set the driver off, and now his career/life is eff’ed.

The Sens hired a lawyer to protect the team name and avoid further action against organization. They did not hire the lawyer to protect Randy Lee.

Randy Lee will step down after the case. IMHO

/.

 

[Rand0m]

I say Randy was saying something he should not have said... set the driver off, and now his career/life is eff’ed.

The Sens hired a lawyer to protect the team name and avoid further action against organization. They did not hire the lawyer to protect Randy Lee.

Randy Lee will step down after the case. IMHO

/.

But the best way to protect the team name would have been to IMMEDIATELY suspend Randy Lee and once an internal investigation was completed or more information was made public, then they should have cut ALL ties with him.

 

[Ice-Tray]

But the best way to protect the team name would have been to IMMEDIATELY suspend Randy Lee and once an internal investigation was completed or more information was made public, then they should have cut ALL ties with him.

Wrong. You don't summarily fire or suspend people without information. Once the team was finished investigating they removed RL from his active duties, which was the right thing to do for all parties involved.

What they didn't do was go off half cocked like many on this board did. The only people who feel that the organization did wrong here are the same folks who think everything the organization does is wrong. I for one was glad to see them do due diligence before making decisions.

This has been handled professionally up to this point, with respect shown to the employee, the judicial system, the victim, and the team name. I agree with Variable, I think the team will make no quick actions until the case is finished, and then likely move on from RL. If he is found not guilty perhaps he is shuffled away from the public eye, if guilty he will be undoubtably let go.

People get accused of things they didn't do often enough, and people make creepy moves when hitting on people all the time. It is fair to let the process unfold before looking to pass judgement, and for the love of God try and understand that the team has to step in with a lawyer given it was a team function and an employee there on the job. As suspected the alleged victim did indeed seem to explore the possibility of involving the team.

Many of the posts here serve too highlight exactly why we have a justice system, and why the alleged victims don't decide the outcomes. Mob 'justice' is a very real and scary thing, many have given their lives to it until we collectively decided that we needed something better. The truth almost always comes out in the end, and when people's lives/livelihood are at stake we need to put in the time and patience as bystanders. It really shouldn't be too much to ask.

It's unfortunate, but we're almost at the end here. Such an odd series of events, with horrendous timing.

I should add that it looks like the team removed RL from all team actions as soon as it happened, but investigated before officially suspending him. That all seems to be swift, and direct action, that has escalated as more information has come to light. My opinion anyways

 

[Upgrayedd]

Wrong. You don't summarily fire or suspend people without information. Once the team was finished investigating they removed RL from his active duties, which was the right thing to do for all parties involved.

What they didn't do was go off half cocked like many on this board did. The only people who feel that the organization did wrong here are the same folks who think everything the organization does is wrong. I for one was glad to see them do due diligence before making decisions.

This has been handled professionally up to this point, with respect shown to the employee, the judicial system, the victim, and the team name. I agree with Variable, I think the team will make no quick actions until the case is finished, and then likely move on from RL. If he is found not guilty perhaps he is shuffled away from the public eye, if guilty he will be undoubtably let go.

People get accused of things they didn't do often enough, and people make creepy moves when hitting on people all the time. It is fair to let the process unfold before looking to pass judgement, and for the love of God try and understand that the team has to step in with a lawyer given it was a team function and an employee there on the job. As suspected the alleged victim did indeed seem to explore the possibility of involving the team.

Many of the posts here serve too highlight exactly why we have a justice system, and why the alleged victims don't decide the outcomes. Mob 'justice' is a very real and scary thing, many have given their lives to it until we collectively decided that we needed something better. The truth almost always comes out in the end, and when people's lives/livelihood are at stake we need to put in the time and patience as bystanders. It really shouldn't be too much to ask.

It's unfortunate, but we're almost at the end here. Such an odd series of events, with horrendous timing.

Id agree with you most times but not specifically related to sexual harassment charges in today's day and age, the seriousness of the allegations should have warranted immediate suspension with pay until internal/external investigation dictates otherwise imo as seems to be SOP for most if not all normally functioning businesses these days. I believe it to be fairly common place in these very strange times unless there was immediate significant evidence to the contrary. Whether you personally or I agree with that sequence of events is another argument entirely, but it seems to be the move in 2018.

 

[BankStreetParade]

This is a case where the maximum fine for Lee was going to be $250 for this incident yet you guys are making him sound like Sandusky.

I'm not excusing his behaviour because what he did was wrong but you guys are making it sound like he's a serial rapist or something.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Id agree with you most times but not specifically related to sexual harassment charges in today's day and age, the seriousness of the allegations should have warranted immediate suspension with pay until internal/external investigation dictates otherwise imo as seems to be SOP for most if not all normally functioning businesses these days. I believe it to be fairly common place in these very strange times unless there was immediate significant evidence to the contrary. Whether you personally or I agree with that sequence of events is another argument entirely, but it seems to be the move in 2018.

I hear you, but there was limited information at first, and RL has denied the allegations. The teams seems to have immediately removed him from activity, as we saw and heard nothing from him right away, and then after investigating more suspended him officially. They did the immediate removal, but a suspension has legal and contractual ramifications as well, and certain burdens need to be met for certain. There is also a certain level of respect that an employer can show an employee to at least investigate to see if there is indeed meat before officially sanctioning.

Even in SH cases I would think that an immediate action of any kind would be hasty without doing due diligence to at least look into what happened. Sometimes it sucks, but the reality is that you have to also respect the accused, especially right after the fact when very little is known. The added weight in SH cases is that 'officially suspended', is almost synonymous for guilty in the public eye, whether we like it or not (as we have seen in here), and I would hope that the team would do some investigations before taking that step.

I'm also not ok with 'this day in age' argument, especially when right now so much is being played out in social media where no one is protected. We can't lessen standards to appease social justice, we just can't. RL is already ruined to a certain degree no matter what happened, deserved or no, and that is due in no small part due to the way things play out in the court of public appeal.

As with most things, it's fine to make snap choices and come down swift and heavily, until it's you or someone you love in the crosshairs.

 

[Masked]

This is a case where the maximum fine for Lee was going to be $250 for this incident yet you guys are making him sound like Sandusky.

I'm not excusing his behaviour because what he did was wrong but you guys are making it sound like he's a serial rapist or something.

Does anyone really believe that this incident was the first time Rick did something like this? It's more likely just the first time he was caught.

People can, and do, get fired for offences less serious than rape. This should be one of those cases.

 

[Tuna99]

This is a case where the maximum fine for Lee was going to be $250 for this incident yet you guys are making him sound like Sandusky.

I'm not excusing his behaviour because what he did was wrong but you guys are making it sound like he's a serial rapist or something.

If there is a Sandusky it's that the institution is siding with the perpetrator in this and that's why people have a problem with it. Nothing on the same scale but if constantly sell 'family, community, values' and then stick by the biggest creeper in team history is sends a mixed message and the wrong message.

you are right this isn't on the same level in any way, but Ottawa isn't handling it well.

At the very least Dorion needs help in the biggest offseason in Sens history and his asst-GM is at home trying not to be convicted and suspended by the team. Stupid, stupid, stupid

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

This is a case where the maximum fine for Lee was going to be $250 for this incident yet you guys are making him sound like Sandusky.

I'm not excusing his behaviour because what he did was wrong but you guys are making it sound like he's a serial rapist or something.

The complicating factor with this situation is his position on the team. He is directly responsible for prospects and young men trying to make the team. Being the authority figure that can make or break a career skews things quite a bit. That's usually why sexual harassment in the workplace has become such a big deal over the last few years.

Having this hanging over the organization is like walking blindfolded though a minefield.

 

[Upgrayedd]

I hear you, but there was limited information at first, and RL has denied the allegations. The teams seems to have immediately removed him from activity, as we saw and heard nothing from him right away, and then after investigating more suspended him officially. They did the immediate removal, but a suspension has legal and contractual ramifications as well, and certain burdens need to be met for certain. There is also a certain level of respect that an employer can show an employee to at least investigate to see if there is indeed meat before officially sanctioning.

Even in SH cases I would think that an immediate action of any kind would be hasty without doing due diligence to at least look into what happened. Sometimes it sucks, but the reality is that you have to also respect the accused, especially right after the fact when very little is known. The added weight in SH cases is that 'officially suspended', is almost synonymous for guilty in the public eye, whether we like it or not (as we have seen in here), and I would hope that the team would do some investigations before taking that step.

I'm also not ok with 'this day in age' argument, especially when right now so much is being played out in social media where no one is protected. We can't lessen standards to appease social justice, we just can't. RL is already ruined to a certain degree no matter what happened, deserved or no, and that is due in no small part due to the way things play out in the court of public appeal.

As with most things, it's fine to make snap choices and come down swift and heavily, until it's you or someone you love in the crosshairs.

I agree however we already have and are currently, im not sure your going to get that genie back in the bottle. Not saying I agree with it but it is the reality of our current society, don't want to get too off topic but for a real cry/laugh Google the dude who was fired for giving a colleague a wanted hug where his arm brushed the back of the plaintiffs back, apologies were made and accepted at the time even though it was seemingly nothing...several years later they realized they were "assaulted" and the guy was fired, like I said strange times! Think it was a professor of some sort.

All in all for RL id be looking to move on personally strictly for job related performance, throw in a sexual assault and im engaging one of the assured out clauses in the contract.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I agree however we already have and are currently, im not sure your going to get that genie back in the bottle. Not saying I agree with it but it is the reality of our current society, don't want to get too off topic but for a real cry/laugh Google the dude who was fired for giving a colleague a wanted hug where his arm brushed the back of the plaintiffs back, apologies were made and accepted at the time even though it was seemingly nothing...several years later they realized they were "assaulted" and the guy was fired, like I said strange times! Think it was a professor of some sort.

All in all for RL id be looking to move on personally strictly for job related performance, throw in a sexual assault and im engaging one of the assured out clauses in the contract.

I hear you, scary times indeed! Yeah, I agree his job performance may lead to replacement anyways.

 

[operasen]

Wrong. You don't summarily fire or suspend people without information. Once the team was finished investigating they removed RL from his active duties, which was the right thing to do for all parties involved.

What they didn't do was go off half cocked like many on this board did. The only people who feel that the organization did wrong here are the same folks who think everything the organization does is wrong. I for one was glad to see them do due diligence before making decisions.

This has been handled professionally up to this point, with respect shown to the employee, the judicial system, the victim, and the team name. I agree with Variable, I think the team will make no quick actions until the case is finished, and then likely move on from RL. If he is found not guilty perhaps he is shuffled away from the public eye, if guilty he will be undoubtably let go.

People get accused of things they didn't do often enough, and people make creepy moves when hitting on people all the time. It is fair to let the process unfold before looking to pass judgement, and for the love of God try and understand that the team has to step in with a lawyer given it was a team function and an employee there on the job. As suspected the alleged victim did indeed seem to explore the possibility of involving the team.

Many of the posts here serve too highlight exactly why we have a justice system, and why the alleged victims don't decide the outcomes. Mob 'justice' is a very real and scary thing, many have given their lives to it until we collectively decided that we needed something better. The truth almost always comes out in the end, and when people's lives/livelihood are at stake we need to put in the time and patience as bystanders. It really shouldn't be too much to ask.

It's unfortunate, but we're almost at the end here. Such an odd series of events, with horrendous timing.

I should add that it looks like the team removed RL from all team actions as soon as it happened, but investigated before officially suspending him. That all seems to be swift, and direct action, that has escalated as more information has come to light. My opinion anyways

I do think he should be reassigned though if this all clears up. Belleville camp is approaching quickly and there is no leadership beyond Mann. Frankly he’s done there. Or should be

 

[topshelf15]

For me a false accuser ,needs to be punished heavily ...This kind crap needs to be put to end....Not saying it may be the case here,but far far too much of this shit has ruined peoples lives

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

For me a false accuser ,needs to be punished heavily ...This kind crap needs to be put to end....Not saying it may be the case here,but far far too much of this **** has ruined peoples lives

False accusations aren't really common place unlike actual sexual harassment in the work place. Far more people go silent for fear of persecution because of your exact reaction. The most common type of harassment is the kind here where someone in a place of power prays on someone below them in the food chain. Our society has been accepting of this for almost our entire existence as a species.

Just think of the practice of tipping servers. That's something we've derived from the feudal age. Our servers have to be on their best behaviour and accept all bad behaviour towards them to get paid well, since as a democracy we've decided servers should be paid a non livable wage since they work for tips. We essentially condition any young man or women in that industry to get used to being sexually harassed in exchange for money and keep their mouth shut.

So maybe let's chill on the victim blaming. It's like complaining about voter fraud. Rarely ever happens. Stop being part of the problem and get woke so shit can change for the better.

We're beyond the false accusations stage of this. Doesn't really seem like Randy and his lawyers wanna go down that road either.

 

[Ice-Tray]

False accusations aren't really common place unlike actual sexual harassment in the work place. Far more people go silent for fear of persecution because of your exact reaction. The most common type of harassment is the kind here where someone in a place of power prays on someone below them in the food chain. Our society has been accepting of this for almost our entire existence as a species.

Just think of the practice of tipping servers. That's something we've derived from the feudal age. Our servers have to be on their best behaviour and accept all bad behaviour towards them to get paid well, since as a democracy we've decided servers should be paid a non livable wage since they work for tips. We essentially condition any young man or women in that industry to get used to being sexually harassed in exchange for money and keep their mouth shut.

So maybe let's chill on the victim blaming. It's like complaining about voter fraud. Rarely ever happens. Stop being part of the problem and get woke so **** can change for the better.

We're beyond the false accusations stage of this. Doesn't really seem like Randy and his lawyers wanna go down that road either.

[mod]

Yeah, I don't think we can generalize servers as having it rough. In fact it's become common practice to tip around 15% regardless of the quality of service. As for non-livable wages thats a bunch of crap. They get minimum wage + tips that have to pay tax only on what they claim. Many many people work jobs with fewer perks for minimum wage and no tips. It's not always glamorous, but serving is a pretty good gig depending on your establishment. You want top argue minimum wage in general I can hear that for sure.

There is also no expectation that a server will put up with customer harassment, most don't and neither do establishments that employ them, nor is there an expectation that they will keep quiet. Reading your post it's clear that your understanding of the service industry is stuck in the 80's, it's time for an update. I know a lot of people that work and manage in the service industry, and no one puts up with customer harassment even slightly. Management harassment is like any industry of course, hit and miss.

Lastly, no one is victim blaming here at all, though that's a cool buzz phrase to throw out to try and silence discussion. People are looking at both sides of the issue and considering the information that has been shared. The only real issue is that some folks made up their minds a long time ago, while others prefer to wait for all of the facts to come out.

It is interesting to note that the lawyer's point of law was that a shoulder rub does not constitute harassment under the charges, but from what I read earlier she also stipulated that they aren't admitting to shoulder rubbing, they still deny that, but arguing that even if he did where is the crime. I suppose her point is that there is no point t in arguing that he didn't rub shoulders if rubbing shoulders isn't even a crime. That give her a two layered approach. If the judge agrees then the charges are dropped, if the judge disagrees then they move on to denying it happened in the first place. Looks like lawyers being lawyers.

I still don't see how he can maintain his position with the team regardless of the out come, deserved if guilty, a shame if not. In this business perception is almost as important as fact unfortunately.

 

[Micklebot]

Yeah, I don't think we can generalize servers as having it rough. In fact it's become common practice to tip around 15% regardless of the quality of service. As for non-livable wages thats a bunch of crap. They get minimum wage + tips that have to pay tax only on what they claim. Many many people work jobs with fewer perks for minimum wage and no tips. It's not always glamorous, but serving is a pretty good gig depending on your establishment. You want top argue minimum wage in general I can hear that for sure.

For what it's worth, here in Ontario minimum wage for workers who serve liquor and receive tips is about 2 bucks less an hour than general minimum wage. They have to pay tax on all tips, not claiming it is illegal. That 15% tip typically gets divided between the servers and the kitchen staff, sometimes the dishwasher and hosts as well. You can certainly make good money as a server, but you can also have some lousy gigs as a server. I'm not sure what perks you're talking about though... inconsistante income that fluctuates with how busy the restaurant is? I guess they get cheap meals from the restaurent and have flexible schedules.

 

[topshelf15]

TBH choosing to remain silent ,and choosing to speak out when wronged...Isnt a big guy little guy thing,its a choice ...Nothing more....Falsely accusing is a crime ,period....