The Quebec Goaltending Factory

[Stephen]

In the mid to late 90s, it seemed like Quebec butterfly goaltending was everything. Patrick Roy (and the hybrid Martin Brodeur) were in the middle of their Hall of Fame careers, lesser goalies like Felix Potvin, Jocelyn Thibault, Stephane Fiset were putting together quality seasons as workhorse goalies, prospects like Dan Cloutier, Eric Fichaud, Jose Theodore, Roberto Luongo, Maxime Ouellet, JS Giguere, Martin Biron, Marc Denis, Marcel Cousineau, JF Damphousse and Pascal Leclaire were all hyped as good to great goaltending prospects.

Yet a decade and a half later, only a small handful of this group has experienced any kind of success comensurate to their hype or early potential. Maybe goalies who demonstrated star potential early in their careers like Potvin, Thibault, Cloutier and Theodore all ended up fizzling to mediocrity. And what's worse, the QMJHL is no longer even a relevant factor in producing goaltending talent these days. My question is, what the heck happened?

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[Fish on The Sand]

In the mid to late 90s, it seemed like Quebec butterfly goaltending was everything. Patrick Roy (and the hybrid Martin Brodeur) were in the middle of their Hall of Fame careers, lesser goalies like Felix Potvin, Jocelyn Thibault, Stephane Fiset were putting together quality seasons as workhorse goalies, prospects like Dan Cloutier, Eric Fichaud, Jose Theodore, Roberto Luongo, Maxime Ouellet, JS Giguere, Martin Biron, Marc Denis, Marcel Cousineau, JF Damphousse and Pascal Leclaire were all hyped as good to great goaltending prospects.

Yet a decade and a half later, only a small handful of this group has experienced any kind of success comensurate to their hype or early potential. Maybe goalies who demonstrated star potential early in their careers like Potvin, Thibault, Cloutier and Theodore all ended up fizzling to mediocrity. And what's worse, the QMJHL is no longer even a relevant factor in producing goaltending talent these days. My question is, what the heck happened?

It went the way of the rest of Quebec hockey.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

does cloutier count? he was born in ontario and played in the OHL. according to hockey-reference, he also played in ontario leagues in the two years before juniors. i don't know if he went to the allaire camps though.

other people are much more qualified than i am to talk about the crumbling of the infrastructure of quebec minor hockey, but one other factor i can think of is that the butterfly style doesn't really make for a long career. it doesn't explain why we don't see wave after wave of top quebec goalie prospects anymore, but it's one reason why the careers of thibault, leclaire, to a lesser degree giguere weren't as long and full as expected. it also might explain why a guy like marc denis fizzled out.

the short shelf-life of the quebec goalie was augmented by the era of the workhorse goalie. the rare freaks (roy, luongo, to a lesser degree potvin) could do this year-in, year-out but most guys can't put that much repeated stress on their joints, especially if they are playing 65-75 games a year. the body breaks down. and even with guys who weren't always injured, like denis, you have to think that they lost their quickness and ability to always be square with the shooter because their bodies prematurely aged. this is one reason why brodeur has been able to have the career he had, because he modified the butterfly style.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I honestly think that a lot of it is because the Quebec methods spread across North America and Europe, with specialized camps, Internet instruction, and the ability to watch (and mimic) these goaltenders just about anywhere you want to be.

I've had the chance to learn from Vladislav Tretiak, Ian Clark, Ian Young, and Craig Billington (and that's just in person - add in excellent text references by Brian Daccord, Mitch Korn, and others). For someone living in Colorado, that wouldn't have been available to me thirty years ago.

For any goaltender serious about honing their craft these days, there's more qualified information out there than could ever be possibly digested.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

related question: how do we account for the finnish goaltending factory if anyone, not just quebec guys, can attend elite camps?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Coach

related question: how do we account for the finnish goaltending factory if anyone, not just quebec guys, can attend elite camps?

Usually there is an influencial coach in an area, country or region.

Example - Quebec, credit is given to Francois Allaire but this overlook the fact that two of the best goaltenders from the "Quebec Era" started their minor hockey careers in the same organization - St. Leonard produced bot Martin Brodeur and Roberto Luongo.

Post WWII a small region of Canada, produced a disproportionate number of NHL goalies. Answer to follow.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Post WWII a small region of Canada, produced a disproportionate number of NHL goalies. Answer to follow.

Central Manitoba?

 

[Axxellien]

Bob Perrault:

...As a Young Teen Adolescent in the Mid 60s, i was deeply impressed by the fact that , despite His brief & rather mediocre performance in Bruins net, Boston Goalie Robert Bob Perreault owned & operated a Tavern in His native Trois Rivieres!! ...Had the barrelhouse physique and goaltending style that fit that role too!!....Recently found out the man was related to Buffalo Sabres Star Gilbert Perreault!

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Usually there is an influencial coach in an area, country or region.

Example - Quebec, credit is given to Francois Allaire but this overlook the fact that two of the best goaltenders from the "Quebec Era" started their minor hockey careers in the same organization - St. Leonard produced bot Martin Brodeur and Roberto Luongo.

Post WWII a small region of Canada, produced a disproportionate number of NHL goalies. Answer to follow.

that's basically what i was wondering, whether someone knows if finland has a francois or benoit allaire figure, or whether there is a national elite minor hockey program or centralized camps that they send the best young kids to, one or a few powerhouse minor/junior teams or leagues, etc.

 

[Stephen]

As I recall, I've heard that Finnish junior teams all employ goalie coaches, so kids grow up with the benefit of specialized training.

Back to the Quebec thing though, it is interesting that the butterfly technique kind of failed because of its demands on the body, and this does make a lot of sense when you consider that a lot of guys suffered from chronic injury issues that basically derailed their careers/development. While this does explain the premature demise of a lot of goalie prospects and young stars, it is unfortunate that the Quebec school was unable to learn from Brodeur's hybridization to evolve into something more sustainable. The fact that Jonathan Bernier is like the only high profile QMJHL graduate to make any impact as a prospect the past few years is pretty discouraging.

 

[willyjagr]

that's basically what i was wondering, whether someone knows if finland has a francois or benoit allaire figure, or whether there is a national elite minor hockey program or centralized camps that they send the best young kids to, one or a few powerhouse minor/junior teams or leagues, etc.

Finland is abit different as this has been a 20 year in the making type deal. I say this as during the 80's(forget the exact year) they decided that they had to change the way goaltending was handled as looking back you can clearly tell they were weak. So what they did was assign goalie coaches(some payed others volunteer) to every team in the country all the way from novice to pro. This is all along with if goalies want to go to summer camps(in NA usually the most coaching goalies get) as well. I did read a article where they stated that Quebec was starting a coaching program like the finish way but it didn't give details so no idea how it works.
I think with the Allaire factory what was the biggest problem is that the shooters adapted to how the goalies played. Well if you look at allaire's teaching it really hasn't changed all that much or adapted and found new ways/abit of athleticism added to it at all.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Shawinigan - Trois Rivieres

The answer to yesterdays question is the Trois Rivieres - Shawinigan stretch of the Mauricie region in Quebec. Axellien came close when he mentioned Bob Perreault.

In the 1950's minor hockey in that area, today's population app. 200,000 produced NHL goaltenders - Jacques Plante(HHOF), Marcel Paille, Bob Perreault, Claude Pronovost, Gilles Boisvert.

Two main reasons. Coaching and arenas had been built going back to the 1920's.

 

[jkrx]

Finlands goalie boom can be explained with two things. Goalie coaches from a young age and the pioneer work of Ylönen and Sirén (Leter Ropponen, Kaarela and Koivistu)

Ylönen is the one who trained Kiprusoff, Nittymäki, Hurme and Norrena while Sirén trained Myllys, Toskala and Markkanen. Ropponen gets credited for the development of Bäckström, Nurminen and Lehtonen.

Koivistu trained Rämö, Rask and Toivunen.

Honorary mention to Jussi Parkkila who helped Varlamov in Washington and trained the fins who went to the KHL.

 

[Zam Boni]

Is that the same Ylönen that played for the French national team or are they somehow related?

Sweden got a real WTF-moment and a brutal wake up call when finnish goalies started to invade the SEL and we were suddenly way behind Finland in an aspect we prided ourself in. I think we took a similar approach and the results are beginning to show, even in NA.

 

[jkrx]

Is that the same Ylönen that played for the French national team or are they somehow related?

Sweden got a real WTF-moment and a brutal wake up call when finnish goalies started to invade the SEL and we were suddenly way behind Finland in an aspect we prided ourself in. I think we took a similar approach and the results are beginning to show, even in NA.

No, not petri, Im talking about Urpo. Who has a trophy named after him in Finland for best goalie.