The Purpose of Utica Comets

[F A N]

I think there is a difference in opinion between our fan base, Comets fan base, and Canucks management so I think it warrants some discussion.

For most Canucks' fans, it appears that this season has been a disaster for the Comets not because they missed the playoffs, but because our prospects have spent a lot of time in the press box with a couple of them expressing discontent and wanting to leave. A short while ago, I asked over in the Comets thread what they thought of Trent Cull. Overall, the response were positive. Since it appears that Cull will be staying it appears that Benning is agreeing with Comets fans.

I said this before in the Utica thread, ironically, Benning and Johnson are probably the biggest reasons the affiliation with Utica got extended. Benning's lack of presence in Utica has been criticized, but there's a reason why a lot of teams have chosen to have their AHL farm team close by. It's considered an advantage.

For me, I have consistently stated that I don't care if the Comets win a single game as long as they are churning out NHL players for the Vancouver Canucks. I only care about the Comets winning if a winning environment helps develop prospects. Otherwise if the key to player development is playing time and opportunity I could care less if the result is 0 wins. Play the prospects. Of course, Comets fans don't like hearing that.

So I'm interested to hear what posters here think. Given the lack of results for the Comets this season one has to wonder what is the goal and what is the purpose of the Utica Comets as far as the Canucks are concerned.

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[Phenomenon13]

Don't we have a Utica thread?

I think the answer to this is quite obvious and there should be no confusion. We are first and foremost Canuck fans, and would not give two flying shits about Utica if they weren't our affiliate AHL team. If our AHL affiliate was in Shanghai, we'd be following them and not even care about the comets. The well being of the Canucks will always come before the well being of the Comets. If it doesn't, I question whether you're a Canucks fan.

The entire purpose of the partnership between the Canucks and Utica is to develop prospects into future NHLers. With how garbage our track record and how difficult it is to actually produce NHLers, I don't think anyone should be picky about how well the AHL team does. As long as it's a environment that develops prospects well, I don't care. The entire reason of sending prospects to Utica is to turn them into NHLers, I don't care how they do it. Obviously, Utica fans don't see it that way and that's understandable cause they're not Canuck fans. I don't think anyone can be happy with how our prospects were developed in Utica. Not only was it not a winning environment, there were reports that our prospects were not given significant minutes in favour of vets and the roster was poorly constructed. Furthermore, none of the prospects progressed as well as I hoped except MacEwan.

 

[geebaan]

Develop.the.f***ing.prospects.

 

[President of Hockey]

Subpar management is evident throughout the organization, not just in Vancouver but also in Utica. They clearly got the wrong approach there. Look at all successful NHL teams and how they approach their farm team. The Comets still being in Utica is laughable and as long as Benning and his buddies are running the show nothing's gonna improve.

 

[Fire Benning]

An AHL team’s job is to serve as a devlopment tool for the organization. That said, if the players simply aren’t good enough to keep up at the pro level, I don’t see a problem with not continuing to play them.

 

[bossram]

An AHL team’s job is to serve as a devlopment tool for the organization. That said, if the players simply aren’t good enough to keep up at the pro level, I don’t see a problem with not continuing to play them.

The only purpose of your farm team should be to develop your prospects. Nothing else. The viewpoint down there should be "how can we make these guys better, viable NHL players?". Not "well,they all suck right now. Might as well bench 'em".

I severely doubt that guys like Palmu and Dahlen, decorated players from pro leagues in Europe, are so bad that they can't even hack it in the AHL. There should be significant development resources invested into them getting better. Not sending them away at the first sign of adversity.

 

[krutovsdonut]

badly worded poll i think. the answer has to be a.

notionally, the only time a prospect should sit is when it is good for their development to sit. however, sometimes it is good for their development to sit in indirect ways.

you can rationalize sitting a prospect a short time to ensure utica made the playoffs so the prospect can get playoff experience

you can rationalize rotating prospects to ensure the prospects who do play are playing in a competitive environment.

you can rationalize reigning in prospects to work on issues with their game (aka benching)

you can rationalize maintaining a hierarchy that respects veterans to teach the prospects about that reality.

but i am not sure you can rationalize sitting prospects on a sustained basis to ensure a winning environment if the sitting impacts their development.

my take is that while a consistent competitive ahl team is a laudable goal, it frequently cannot happen due to the tradeoffs necessary to develop youngsters and meet the needs of the parent. the easiest time to do it is when the parent team has a mature strong roster so there is some stablity for the farm team to plan around and maybe the luxury of time with prospects. at other times, injuries, the relative state of development of the prospects you have to develop, and callups are all variables than can blow up your season.

 

[Dissonance Jr]

Worth noting that the Flames org has been very explicit that prospect development should take precedence over winning even a single AHL game:

“When I interviewed with Brad (Treliving), Connie and Brad (Pascall), they made it very clear that priority No. 1 is developing guys and making sure they’re ready to play in the NHL,” Huska said. “Tree even said it one time. I don’t care if you guys go 0-72, as long as guys develop. Then he stopped and caught himself. Well, maybe not 0-72.”

Treliving is passionate and unrelenting with his viewpoint of the role the AHL team plays.

“We want it to be a successful environment. We want to win as much as we can. But that’s not the first priority,” Treliving said. “The first priority is developing players and we’re going to put that above everything. So when there’s an important faceoff and it’s 1-1 and there’s 30 seconds to go, we want the 21-year-old player taking it, not the 31-year-old player.”

Granted, I doubt it’s completely either/or. You do need good veteran support so that your top prospects are in a position to succeed. Like, pair up a top D prospect with a smart veteran and give them heavy minutes. Find a good AHL center to play with your blue chip young winger. What you don’t want, though, is to play a bunch of AHL lifers at the expense of the young guys just to eke out a few more wins.

 

[Guardian452]

injuries, the relative state of development of the prospects you have to develop, and callups are all variables than can blow up your season.

And yet there are posters who somehow blame management for not signing enough players in advance to replace the injuries which at times totalled 10-15 players combined on the Canucks/Comets or that players like Gaudette, Demko and Sautner were in the Canucks lineup instead of Utica when clearly, Green should not have been playing the 20-best healthy players in the organization.

 

[The Poacher]

I think when it comes to high end prospects, regardless of the competitiveness of their AHL team they will be very likely to have personal success leading to NHL opportunity. So the players he is surrounded by will have little negative effects on their development.

Lesser prospects maybe guys picked in the second to seventh round would benefit more by being surrounded by solid offence and defensive AHL contributing players to learn from. Prospect aren’t going to develop when surrounded by poor talent, ultimately leading to little team success.

There needs to be a balance of opertunity and earned ice time.

 

[StrictlyCommercial]

You need experienced / skilled veterans to help young players develop. If a player is stuck with guys that can't defend and can't make passes, they won't be able to develop their skills. Playing only prospects would be an unmitigated disaster. You need to build your AHL team around your prospects.

Have a highly touted scoring winger prospect? Get a vet playmaking center.

Have an offensive D prospect? Get a steady vet to play with them.

Have no offensive D prospects? Get an offensive D vet so your powerplay doesn't suck.

The problem Utica has is that our management does not comprehend that you need to target vets that complement your top prospects. Forcing ice time for bad players just drags down everyone.

 

[Hit the post]

Have Gagner play for our AHL affiliate rival was a stroke of genius.

Then there was the goalie fiasco.

 

[Peter10]

The problem with the "winning environment" is that you, well actually have to be a winning team. Benning and Co have spewed the "winning environment" ad nauseam since 2014 yet all they have created a losing environment over the last few year. If your farm team does not actually play your prospects and also does not create a positive situation for their development it is just of no use at all. The way Utica is handled right now, the Canucks wouldnt be any worse of if they just loan their players to a random AHL team which is no affiliate (like the Wolves in the past).

 

[TruGr1t]

Apparently the current reason for Utica to exist is to help Ryan Johnson and Trent Cull get NHL jobs.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Develop prospects, at all costs.

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

For those of us who haven't been paying attention to the Comets, can someone fill in with some details/examples of what specifically management/coaches did wrong in Utica this year? Are there specific examples of prospects being benched, not getting ice time, etc.?

 

[TruKnyte]

Develop our prospects. As much as I am grateful for the fans in Utica, the primary purpose of the farm team is to support the big club, not the other way around.

That being said we really need to have more prospects to send to Utica in the first place.

 

[FuzzyTitus]

Selected A, but I don't really think that's the answer. There needs to be a middle ground.

Winning/success drives development, but the prospects need to be a part of that success. Really liked that Treviling comment up above, and the comment about finding compliments to the prospects you have.

Ideally you want Utica in the playoffs with your prospects driving the team. Unfortunately, management has done a poor job of supplying Utica with strong prospects or veterans. So, worst of both worlds really.

You have to imagine that if Utica continues to be left in the dark, fan support (& revenue) will start to dwindle.

 

[UticaHockey]

If only it was as black and white as this poll makes it sound. From Thatcher Demko who was back in Utica this weekend and had the long embrace with Jaime Sifers after the game yesterday. Sifers a long time AHL veteran defenseman is retiring from professional hockey.

 

[Hit the post]

For those of us who haven't been paying attention to the Comets, can someone fill in with some details/examples of what specifically management/coaches did wrong in Utica this year? Are there specific examples of prospects being benched, not getting ice time, etc.?

Canada's greatest athlete was a great jobber (Sharpe). This isn't a knock against him as you NEED these types to put over the main talent on the roster. The Comets management were awful jobbers (think Disco Inferno):

 

[I in the Eye]

Develop prospects... prepare prospects and fill-in roster players for the NHL... but when the NHL season is over (no playoffs), all available NHL players who can play in the minors without having to pass through waivers, should. The calviry. Get the young guys to play together as much as you can, for as long as you can... hopefully for a playoff run down below.

 

[Bonham]

The League's main purpose is to develop NHL players -- why else would there be a limitation on professional contracts per team?

As per their website:

"The AHL serves as the top development league for the National Hockey League, and the vast majority of players in the AHL have been chosen in the NHL Entry Draft and signed to an NHL contract. Occasionally, players are signed as free agents based on scouting information compiled by AHL teams and their parent clubs..."

"In the AHL, player development is a top priority. The American Hockey League and the Professional Hockey Players’ Association have the following development rule in place:
Of the 18 skaters (not counting two goaltenders) that teams may dress for a game, at least 13 must be qualified as “development players.” Of those 13, 12 must have played in 260 or fewer professional games (including AHL, NHL and European elite leagues), and one must have played in 320 or fewer professional games. All calculations for development status are based on regular-season totals as of the start of the season."

Development should be the one and only goal.

 

[DFAC]

Bad poll options.... why do they have to be mutually exclusive events??

 

[Jyrki21]

I don’t often agree with @krutovsdonut but I think he’s right here – the answer for me is somewhere between 1 and 2.

As in, development should be the priority, but that doesn’t equal throwing out only prospects no matter how hapless they may be and letting them lose endlessly. That seems to defeat the purpose of development.

But they need to be given priority and the rope to make mistakes, too.

 

[Bonham]

I don’t often agree with @krutovsdonut but I think he’s right here – the answer for me is somewhere between 1 and 2.

As in, development should be the priority, but that doesn’t equal throwing out only prospects no matter how hapless they may be and letting them lose endlessly. That seems to defeat the purpose of development.

But they need to be given priority and the rope to make mistakes, too.

Yep -- they should be placed in the best situation to succeed.

It does not mean they should be spoon-fed but every effort should be made to ensure they are given opportunities and being developed properly. The impression I get from this organization is this concept is more of an after-thought.