OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: New Quarter Backs for the Handball team!

[Peat]

Yeah, there is flat out no way I can agree with this argument. Canada was an awful OC, yes, but the amount of talent Pickett had around him was FAR more than what Fields had for the most part. Fields actually finally got some talent last year with Moore from Carolina and the Bears actually had a decent offense.

I can't comment on the full run, but Fields had a shot with a decent amount of talent and a non-astoundingly bad OC and a HC that believed in telling his QB to try and play normally. It didn't work. It put up points, but not wins.

Pickett never got that. Having talent does you no good if everyone's being told to do stupid things - and he didn't actually have that talent on the field for a substantial amount of last season.

I think the thing that confuses me is that I agree with you on "wait and see" with Pickett. I was completely fine with giving him another look, well up until he demanded a trade. I am in the same position with Fields as I was with Pickett: he's still young and there might be something there worth trying to develop. Fields may have flaws that Pickett didn't have that can reasonably make someone skeptical of him, but I feel like the same patience towards Pickett should be extended towards Fields. That's just my opinion on it.

First off, that extra season of being a starter is a big difference. I am willing to believe a guy who's been in a crap situation for two seasons might be rescuable. Three seasons, particularly when the last is in a decent enough situation, tips the balance the other way.

Second... I was preaching patience when Pickett was going through that three game misery streak that got Canada fired. But, end of the season, reviewing everything? I was out of patience. I could believe he could play a bunch better, and think he's better than a lot of people here think, but I couldn't believe he'd hit the worthwhile long-term heights at which point you're looking at drafting again so do it if you can. I wanted them to look at McCarthy and Nix (not that it'd have worked out).

The main thing I liked about Pickett at that point - other than believing Tomlin should be made to lie in the bed he'd made, partly to make him to learn how to develop franchise QBs and partly out of pissy spite - was that he'd cost no further assets and that the tether was almost gone so there was less risk of the Steelers convincing themselves it'd work with journeymen QBs instead of going back to the draft like they need to. Most of that disappeared when they traded for Wilson and killed any chance of developing him in a suitable timeline.

Trading Pickett and acquiring Fields getting us more assets is cool but for the rest, it doesn't equal patience with Fields.

Finally, I simply see next to nothing worth trying to develop in Fields. He has shown none of the traits I value highly in QBs. He processes poorly, is inaccurate, and is anti-clutch. I get the people who value a big arm and rushing ability more will disagree with me, but there we go, that one is what it is.

 

[WickedWrister]

FWIW Khan just said that the "7 out of 20" comment by the Steelers scout in the Fautanu draft call video wasn't in reference to where they had him on their big board, rather 7 out of the first 20 picks being from the PAC-12 conference.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

They had the 23rd ranked offense and 32nd ranked defense. Giving up 27 points a game seems like a much bigger reason why they ended up being bad that year.

Emp, I grew up a huge Payton fan when I was like 5 at the tail end of his career, and that lead into the Neal Anderson era and just went from there.

Every time they get a new “franchise QB” I follow them closely, Cutler, MT, and Fields.

That’s exactly how I knew MT would be a disaster in Pgh and how I know Fields is a massive reason they lost games in ‘22 and what he struggles with.

You can throw out stats all you like but I saw the games.

Fields is a turnover machine that can’t read a D and stares down his receivers.

Just like with MT, you’ll see.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Zay Jones would be an excellent addition to the WR room on the cheaper side of things

Jones was arrested last fall for domestic violence. Case was dropped, for what it's worth, but Cam Sutton's could be too.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I defended Kordell for years with my family and friends and don’t feel badly about that either.

I’ll always be ultra patient with QBs and give them time to learn without throwing a hissy fit like you and others when they struggle.

If they don’t work out after a few years it’s time to move on and I have never had any hard feelings towards the guys that bust out.

I don’t feel the need to pile on them and make rumors about them and Schenley Park, flip out when they struggle, etc.



So basically you just told me you didn’t watch Fields play that year.

Yeah I never threw a hissy fit with KP lmao. Actually know him a little and he’s a good dude

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I can't comment on the full run, but Fields had a shot with a decent amount of talent and a non-astoundingly bad OC and a HC that believed in telling his QB to try and play normally. It didn't work. It put up points, but not wins.

Pickett never got that. Having talent does you no good if everyone's being told to do stupid things - and he didn't actually have that talent on the field for a substantial amount of last season.



First off, that extra season of being a starter is a big difference. I am willing to believe a guy who's been in a crap situation for two seasons might be rescuable. Three seasons, particularly when the last is in a decent enough situation, tips the balance the other way.

Second... I was preaching patience when Pickett was going through that three game misery streak that got Canada fired. But, end of the season, reviewing everything? I was out of patience. I could believe he could play a bunch better, and think he's better than a lot of people here think, but I couldn't believe he'd hit the worthwhile long-term heights at which point you're looking at drafting again so do it if you can. I wanted them to look at McCarthy and Nix (not that it'd have worked out).

The main thing I liked about Pickett at that point - other than believing Tomlin should be made to lie in the bed he'd made, partly to make him to learn how to develop franchise QBs and partly out of pissy spite - was that he'd cost no further assets and that the tether was almost gone so there was less risk of the Steelers convincing themselves it'd work with journeymen QBs instead of going back to the draft like they need to. Most of that disappeared when they traded for Wilson and killed any chance of developing him in a suitable timeline.

Trading Pickett and acquiring Fields getting us more assets is cool but for the rest, it doesn't equal patience with Fields.

Finally, I simply see next to nothing worth trying to develop in Fields. He has shown none of the traits I value highly in QBs. He processes poorly, is inaccurate, and is anti-clutch. I get the people who value a big arm and rushing ability more will disagree with me, but there we go, that one is what it is.

The talent in Chi wasn’t an issue holding Fields back so you are bang on about that.

Yeah I never threw a hissy fit with KP lmao. Actually know him a little and he’s a good dude

Oh my bad cuz.

Based on your earlier post I thought we were playing the “make up dumb shit” game.

Was only trying to follow your lead.

 

[T1K]

Jones was arrested last fall for domestic violence. Case was dropped, for what it's worth, but Cam Sutton's could be too.

Not trying to sound like a jerk, but that’s not really a factor for me as long as their legal issues are resolved.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Not trying to sound like a jerk, but that’s not really a factor for me as long as their legal issues are resolved.

All good, just pointing it out because it was a topic around Cam Sutton (and I don't mean to suggest you had any comment on that subject), understanding that his aren't resolved.

 

[JTG]

Fields does not have more natural talent than Kenny Pickett. He has a faster 40 time but that has jack to do with QB talent. Kenny Pickett managed to make himself a first round pick in a Pat Narduzzi offense and managed to somehow win games in a Matt Canada offense once in the pros. Kenny’s only major flaw is his happy feet which is fixable. He can read defenses, deliver accurate balls, and protects the ball (few turnovers). Fields on top of happy feet, can’t read anything, makes poor decisions, and puts the ball on the ground at an alarming rate. But hey he’s more mobile so he’s got talent!

Fields has more talent than Pickett in pretty much any way you can measure athletic ability.

 

[T1K]

What’s the point of discussing Pickett anymore? You guys are bored.

 

[xlm34]

Fields has more talent than Pickett in pretty much any way you can measure athletic ability.

I also don’t think that Pickett showed he was a particularly good processor or all that accurate at the NFL level. At least not consistently.

 

[JTG]

Age doesn’t matter to me, NFL experience does.

I was on the KP train for three years and was pretty adamant I’d be off it by the end of next season if he didn’t improve.

I don’t really get attached to players so if he didn’t show any improvement by then - time to go.

I’m a massive believer in the three year rule and being patient with a QB.

After that all bets are off.

Fields has hit that expiry date last season and still can’t read a D, struggles with his progressions and lacks accuracy.

All the most worrisome traits a QB can still have after three years.



The Bears had first overall in 2023 because of Fields poor play and traded it to Carolina.

Having that first overall this season was a direct result of Fields struggles.

I'm not going to get into this with you, but I think you're being disingenuous. Anyone who pins Chicago's woes squarely on Fields is not being fair. I cannot blame Fields for Chicago the same way I cannot blame Pittsburgh on Kenny.

I think Fields was a great pro prospect coming out of college, but he needed the Jordan Love treatment. He had a good foundation but needed about 2 years to mature his game and develop. The issues in Chicago are huge, but all of a sudden they all pale in comparison to how bad Fields was...and he was really bad at periods in time.

I also don’t think that Pickett showed he was a particularly good processor or all that accurate at the NFL level. At least not consistently.

Me neither, but I certainly wanted to see what he looked like with a line and OC like Wilson and Fields are going to have.

What’s the point of discussing Pickett anymore? You guys are bored.

Yet you are commenting about commenting. Who is the doofus?

 

[Peat]

What’s the point of discussing Pickett anymore? You guys are bored.

You don't say

I also don’t think that Pickett showed he was a particularly good processor or all that accurate at the NFL level. At least not consistently.

He didn't, but this is stuff where I believe the difference between good coaching and development, and bad coaching and development, can make a ton of difference. I think what the Steelers did with Canada was an exceptionally heavy weight to try and lift there, so I'm idly curious as to what Pickett looks like it whenever he next gets a chance.

At the same time, why I decided I was fine with the Steelers saying "onwards" is it feels really unlikely that two years of awful teaching can be undone to the point of getting Pickett to a franchise QB level.

 

[xlm34]

You don't say



He didn't, but this is stuff where I believe the difference between good coaching and development, and bad coaching and development, can make a ton of difference. I think what the Steelers did with Canada was an exceptionally heavy weight to try and lift there, so I'm idly curious as to what Pickett looks like it whenever he next gets a chance.

At the same time, why I decided I was fine with the Steelers saying "onwards" is it feels really unlikely that two years of awful teaching can be undone to the point of getting Pickett to a franchise QB level.

I gotta admit I was curious to see what he’d do with a competent OC. I don’t think anyone can deny that sticking the guy with Matt Canada for two years completely f***ed him. His supporting cast on offense wasn’t ideal either, but I’ve seen much worse (see Fields, Justin).

So yeah damage may be done on Pickett and Fields. If I gotta try to work a miracle, gimme Fields though.

 

[The Old Master]

What’s the point of discussing Pickett anymore? You guys are bored.

we are all just waiting on the big trade

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I'm not going to get into this with you, but I think you're being disingenuous. Anyone who pins Chicago's woes squarely on Fields is not being fair. I cannot blame Fields for Chicago the same way I cannot blame Pittsburgh on Kenny.

I think Fields was a great pro prospect coming out of college, but he needed the Jordan Love treatment. He had a good foundation but needed about 2 years to mature his game and develop. The issues in Chicago are huge, but all of a sudden they all pale in comparison to how bad Fields was...and he was really bad at periods in time.



Me neither, but I certainly wanted to see what he looked like with a line and OC like Wilson and Fields are going to have.


Yet you are commenting about commenting. Who is the doofus?

I can’t be disingenuous about something I never wrote.

I said Fields is a big reason why they keep losing, because he flat out is.

He’s the one making the untimely turnovers and missing throws in the big moments.

That’s a far cry from saying it’s all on him, because it’s just common sense a team of 53 players don’t lose all because of one guy.

But when their QB can’t make the plays they need it keeps costing them wins.

The Dec game agt Cleveland is a microcosm of his career to date when he couldn’t make the plays in the fourth quarter and he lost to the corpse of Joe Flacco.

In the fourth quarter Flacco made big time throws of 50+ yards twice and a couple big 30+ yard throws.

Right before the half Fields blew an easy throw over Mooney’s head which would have been an automatic FG in a game they lost by three.

So telling me I’m being disingenuous when I’ve literally watched Fields blow games constantly like this is silly.

 

[JTG]

I can’t be disingenuous about something I never wrote.

I said Fields is a big reason why they keep losing, because he flat out is.

He’s the one making the untimely turnovers and missing throws in the big moments.

That’s a far cry from saying it’s all on him, because it’s just common sense a team of 53 players don’t lose all because of one guy.

But when their QB can’t make the plays they need it keeps costing them wins.

The Dec game agt Cleveland is a microcosm of his career to date when he couldn’t make the plays in the fourth quarter and he lost to the corpse of Joe Flacco.

In the fourth quarter Flacco made big time throws of 50+ yards twice and a couple big 30+ yard throws.

Right before the half Fields blew an easy throw over Mooney’s head which would have been an automatic FG in a game they lost by three.

So telling me I’m being disingenuous when I’ve literally watched Fields blow games constantly like this is silly.

You're being disingenuous because you would stand up for Kenny and now you're burying Fields for pretty much the same shit.

I'm just saying...

 

[JTG]

The more I watch and read about Roman Wilson, he's a dawg. I'm really excited to see how he breaks into the league because I think he could burst on the scene, I think.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

You're being disingenuous because you would stand up for Kenny and now you're burying Fields for pretty much the same shit.

I'm just saying...

Bro I explained this pretty clearly.

KP was a second year guy.

Fields was in his third season.

The last convo we had about KP I told you I was done with him if he didn’t win a playoff game next season… his third year.

So how is that disingenuous?

It’s pretty consistent actually.

In December of your third year you can’t hit a simple throw to Mooney or make any plays to beat the corpse of Flacco?

Cmon.

I’m 99% sure that game sealed his fate and Poles knew it was time to move on.

 

[Peat]

I gotta admit I was curious to see what he’d do with a competent OC. I don’t think anyone can deny that sticking the guy with Matt Canada for two years completely f***ed him. His supporting cast on offense wasn’t ideal either, but I’ve seen much worse (see Fields, Justin).

So yeah damage may be done on Pickett and Fields. If I gotta try to work a miracle, gimme Fields though.

And I'd pick Pickett as I value the clutch stuff, but I think we can agree we're splitting hairs and that it's better not to be trying to work a miracle at all. Sometimes that's where you are but you want to leave that highway asap.

Which kind of works me back to my main point on Fields. Fields for the season? Sure, great. Talking up Fields as something exciting to maybe spend multiple season no? No. That's the bit I'll object to over and over. I know next year isn't meant to be a super strong QB draft but they need to look hard at it anyway.

 

[JTG]

I gotta admit I was curious to see what he’d do with a competent OC. I don’t think anyone can deny that sticking the guy with Matt Canada for two years completely f***ed him. His supporting cast on offense wasn’t ideal either, but I’ve seen much worse (see Fields, Justin).

So yeah damage may be done on Pickett and Fields. If I gotta try to work a miracle, gimme Fields though.

I'm exactly here also.

 

[xlm34]

And I'd pick Pickett as I value the clutch stuff, but I think we can agree we're splitting hairs and that it's better not to be trying to work a miracle at all. Sometimes that's where you are but you want to leave that highway asap.

Which kind of works me back to my main point on Fields. Fields for the season? Sure, great. Talking up Fields as something exciting to maybe spend multiple season no? No. That's the bit I'll object to over and over. I know next year isn't meant to be a super strong QB draft but they need to look hard at it anyway.

Yeah I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer on Pickett vs Fields…actually to be fair there are probably two wrong answers.

And yeah I’m not holding out really any hope on him as a long term option. But if they’re insistent on finding out I do think it has to be this year which is why I’m so adamantly against Russell Wilson. I don’t want to see them waste this year on Wilson and then the following year on Fields. It’s great that they have no commitments beyond this year I suppose but I’d like them to have a totally clear picture on the QB situation by the offseason.

 

[Ulf5]

Missed two games due to a shoulder injury in 2022 but other than that he's been healthy the past two years. Deep dive on his injury history that might dispel some of Rapoport's comments on draft night. Entrance Physical: LB Payton Wilson

As for how high we had Fautanu on our board...

Khan said on the Pat McAfee Show, they were trying to move up to get Fautanu.

Omar Khan: Steelers were ‘working the phones’ to move up for Troy Fautanu

The Steelers were hoping to get Troy Fautanu one way or another

www.behindthesteelcurtain.com

 

[JTG]

Year #3 of "It all comes down to the QB."

This is the best team we have had by far though.

 

[T1K]

I'm not going to get into this with you, but I think you're being disingenuous. Anyone who pins Chicago's woes squarely on Fields is not being fair. I cannot blame Fields for Chicago the same way I cannot blame Pittsburgh on Kenny.

I think Fields was a great pro prospect coming out of college, but he needed the Jordan Love treatment. He had a good foundation but needed about 2 years to mature his game and develop. The issues in Chicago are huge, but all of a sudden they all pale in comparison to how bad Fields was...and he was really bad at periods in time.



Me neither, but I certainly wanted to see what he looked like with a line and OC like Wilson and Fields are going to have.


Yet you are commenting about commenting. Who is the doofus?

I’m just trying to get the discussion back on track to 2024, but feel free to talk fan fiction all you want.