The old core leadership fallacy: a number analysis

[Scintillating10]

We added some heart in Malholta too. So wasn't total loss. Too early to tell yet how important leadership...we'll start to see around halloween time. I think leadership is more important in stretch run and playoffs than start of season. No doubt Habs will see some big names added by next spring

 

[habtastic]

It's not so simple as averaging out numbers. Team context has to be taken into account. Subban to me, while being one of the best players in the league and our best player outside of Price, could very well be captain. I just think the RIGHT person for the job is Plekanec. He is just as much a leader, even though he isn't as effusive as PK. He's cool, collected and the guys also love him. He deserves this and 100% PK will be the next captain.

I also agree that Gallagher exudes captain material, but it would just seem weird. Best thing about our group is that so many of them are showing "captain material" properties. But when it comes down to it, you gotta go with the guy who has worked his but off even more than PK when you consider time with the team. I would be fine with PK or Pleks, but I think the latter deserves it and it's wrong when said that he's not a leader, considering he's our swiss knife of a forward. Gainey, Carbo...that sort of thing. Imagine him with capable wingers. Oh right, all you have to do is look back to the Kovy/AK days. Guy was an offensive gem.

Interesting table though. I can see your argument. Makes sense for many other teams, but I think they've built from ground zero up. That's not been our situation.


FTR, I think PK would be the ideal captain in terms of media, interviews, etc. I don't think he would crumble under the pressure. He would eat it up. Still think Pleks should get it. Considering we're going to deal him at some point, which saddens me, I'd like for him to go up in the pantheon of Habs captains. Deserves it AND I maintain he is a guy who "gets it". We've had lots of success and great moments prior to PK, and Pleky has been at the center of it. (Obviously we're striving for more in this new era.)

 

[CupInSIX]

A team vote would embody the entire idea of having a Captain. Leadership in business is granted. Leadership in sports among a team is earned.

And leadership does not automatically come from the person because of age or performance. There are too many intangibles that supercedes performance.

Leadership, or popularity? No offense to Tokarski or Sekac or anyone else but a 20-22 man vote says what, exactly? Emelin can't understand half of what most of them are saying to him. He might be inclined to vote for the guy who farts the loudest because it entertains him.

Anyone can see Gallagher and Subban are the young leaders. Management should give the C to the one who best exemplifies the combination of performance, leadership and PR ability.

 

[Habs]

wasted lots of time on this to prove nothing really...


Lots of things in hockey, or life in general, can be quantified, but trying to do it with courage, heart, leadership, etc ? really ?


besides, the only thing your tables are showing are the age of various captain, it has nothing to do with leadership.

x10

Props for being the only guy to post a table using microsoft word...

 

[Hoople]

Leadership, or popularity? No offense to Tokarski or Sekac or anyone else but a 20-22 man vote says what, exactly? Emelin can't understand half of what most of them are saying to him. He might be inclined to vote for the guy who farts the loudest because it entertains him.

Anyone can see Gallagher and Subban are the young leaders. Management should give the C to the one who best exemplifies the combination of performance, leadership and PR ability.

If we were talking about Middle School teenagers, sure they would vote based on the most popular person.

However, these are adult professionals who understand the concept of leadership and how it is important for the team to succeed.

I would trust them to be able to identify who the leader of this team is.

 

[the]

I'm glad that Gionta and Gorges are gone so that we can finally get some real leaders on this team.

 

[TheRooster]

I'm glad that Gionta and Gorges are gone so that we can finally get some real leaders on this team.

What would a "real leader" be in your eyes?

 

[overlords]

What would a "real leader" be in your eyes?

Someone he likes.

 

[Scintillating10]

I'm not least bit worried about our leadership. Maybe I am wrong but feel Malholta and maturing of our young stars will make up for leadership lost. Only potential problem I see is Gorges chemistry with Subban. He covered well for Subban, Gorges reads the play well that way. His ability to read the play what made him a great penalty killer and shot blocker. Subban often goes out of position to throw, or attempt to throw devastating body checks. Along with his offensive rushes. When Gorges was out with injury last March Subban ended up in Therrein's doghouse, even benched for a game against Ottawa. Subban's +/- tumbled when Gorges was out, ended up -4 for the year, first time that happened since his rookie year.

 

[Kimota]

Great analysis Spree. I agree with your conclusion... Confirms some of my impressions. I'll bring more on this....

Exhibit A Mark Messier
1-Around 1980 (Messier is only 19 or 20 years old) : "But early on Sather recognized the value of (Kevin) Lowe and Messier.... Lowe remembers that Sather "pushed " him and Messier into leadership roles, "straight out" telling them: "Hey, you guys take charge. You tell 'em when they're screwing up" per Klein: Messier. p.31
2-The only player to captain two different professional teams to championships

Exhibit B Chris Pronger
1- Was 23 years old when first named Captain. He was pushed in a leadership role despite his prior (major) off ice issues and spats with the team. He's now lauded as a great leader, HOF and no one remembers all the crap from early in his career.

Yea but

It's Messier

It's Pronger

 

[19VJ17]

Yea but

It's Messier

It's Pronger

Yea but

It's PK

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Considering that our core is drafted and developped by ourselves (Except for Eller), and that our next captain will certainly be a player drafted/developped by the Habs, I centered your graphic to players named captain that fit that category (hence excluding players like Chara, Ference, Salvador, Thornton and Phaneuf).

Andrew Ladd certainly does not fit that category.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Yea but

It's PK

so ?

 

[PricePkPatch*]

Yea but

It's Messier

It's Pronger

you do realize there people weren't those people before they were those people?

Meaning you are attributing a judgement ex-post facto. You argument basically resumes to "Are you comparing Subban to Messier/Pronger?". It's a valid criticism if you compare Pronger and Messier's whole career achievement to Subban's current status in the NHL.

HOWEVER, what if you compared Subban's current status in the NHL to Pronger's and Messier's when they were 25 and/or only had 4 season of play? I think Subban compares much more favorably to these leaders if you remove the ex-post facto analysis.

tl:dr --> Subban might very well be the next Messier or Pronger, but it won't happen unless he's given the same chance as these people. He's the same kind of "hothead filled to the brim with potential" as these two were in their youth. Leadership made both Messier and Pronger mature as player, people and leader. I don't see why Subban couldn't go through the same steps.

 

[the]

What would a "real leader" be in your eyes?

Someone that can walk the talk. Not just sit in the locker room and repeat the cliche stuff that the coach wants to hear but also deliver on the ice.

Someone like PK Subban during the playoffs or Gionta during his first season here.

 

[overlords]

you do realize there people weren't those people before they were those people?

Meaning you are attributing a judgement ex-post facto. You argument basically resumes to "Are you comparing Subban to Messier/Pronger?". It's a valid criticism if you compare Pronger and Messier's whole career achievement to Subban's current status in the NHL.

HOWEVER, what if you compared Subban's current status in the NHL to Pronger's and Messier's when they were 25 and/or only had 4 season of play? I think Subban compares much more favorably to these leaders if you remove the ex-post facto analysis.

tl:dr --> Subban might very well be the next Messier or Pronger, but it won't happen unless he's given the same chance as these people. He's the same kind of "hothead filled to the brim with potential" as these two were in their youth. Leadership made both Messier and Pronger mature as player, people and leader. I don't see why Subban couldn't go through the same steps.

great post.

 

[CupInSIX]

If we were talking about Middle School teenagers, sure they would vote based on the most popular person.

However, these are adult professionals who understand the concept of leadership and how it is important for the team to succeed.

I would trust them to be able to identify who the leader of this team is.

Disagree. I don't consider Rene Bourque's input as valuable as Carey Price's.

Just as I wouldn't trust half the 80's Oilers team to not cast their votes away for Popsickle Pete while they were hf rules: libellous content removed high on life.

 

[Kriss E]

If we were talking about Middle School teenagers, sure they would vote based on the most popular person.

However, these are adult professionals who understand the concept of leadership and how it is important for the team to succeed.

I would trust them to be able to identify who the leader of this team is.

Every system has flaws. Even in politics, a person can have 0 knowledge in politics and still cast a vote. That vote will matter just as much as the one of an experts that fully understands policies and knows what is feasible or not.

Over here, although not as extreme, there's still flaws in the voting process. Would Gilbert and Maholtra have a vote? Would Beaulieu? Are they really as well placed to decide who should be the next captain over guys like Plekanec or Markov?

 

[ECWHSWI]

Disagree. I don't consider Rene Bourque's input as valuable as Carey Price's.

Just as I wouldn't trust half the 80's Oilers team to not cast their votes away for Popsickle Pete while they were hf rules: libellous content removed high on life.

Price being the better athlete doesnt make him the best person to judge character, personnalities and al'.

 

[Hoople]

Every system has flaws. Even in politics, a person can have 0 knowledge in politics and still cast a vote. That vote will matter just as much as the one of an experts that fully understands policies and knows what is feasible or not.

Over here, although not as extreme, there's still flaws in the voting process. Would Gilbert and Maholtra have a vote? Would Beaulieu? Are they really as well placed to decide who should be the next captain over guys like Plekanec or Markov?

TEAM

That includes Gilbert, Malhotra and Beaulieu.

I can just imagine what the Habs lockerroom would be like if Gilbert and Malhotra, the two newest Habs, were told that they really dont matter because they are "new".

Once the contract is signed, they are Habs. And I am pretty sure that they will quickly notice who the leaders in the room are. Most NHL players are smarter than what you appear to give them credit for.