Player Discussion The Nuge Part II | He sucks. The player's alright though.

[Fourier]

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How was RNH good? Because he looked ok against a beat up Sharks team?

He was so bad against Getzlaf, we had to break up the McDavid/Draisaitl combo.

He is a garbage player who had a garbage playoffs.

Let's just fact check this a little.

Goals against when Getzlaf was on the ice at ES vs:

Nuge 3
Draissiatl 3
McDavid 2
Letestu 2

Of those 3 goals Nuge had a direct responsibility in 1, the Getzlaf chip. The other two were a terrible turnover by Nurse and the weak clear by Eberle that resulted in the goal on which Perry interfered with Talbot. So in 5 of the 7 games Getzlaf was not on the ice for any ES goal at the same time as Nuge.

Faceoffs:

This must favour Leon and Letestu...Or does it.

Nuge (17) vs Getzlaf (13) = 56.7%

Leon (22) VS Getzlaf (28) =44%

Letestu (3) vs Getzlaf (5) =37.5%

Finally on the possession front.

In the seven games when head to head Getzlaf had a posseion advantage in 4 games to Nuge's 3 with each player having one dominant game vs the other and pretty much all the rest being close.

Leon lost the possession war to Getzlaf all 7 games with 4 being quite lopsided.

Bottomline is that it is fair to be critical of the RNH line for not scoring despite actually creating a fairly significant number of chances but the rest is pretty much 100% false.

Click to read more...

 

[Spawn]

Let's just fact check this a little.

Goals against when Getzlaf was on the ice at ES vs:

Nuge 3
Draissiatl 3
McDavid 2
Letestu 2

http://www.naturalstattrick.com/pla...7&stype=3&sit=5v5&rate=n&v=o&playerid=8470612

Not sure where you got your numbers. Here is what I was able to find. These numbers suggest you're ignoring a pretty important factor in my opinion.

5v5:

Draisaitl had 4GF 4GA when matched up against Getzlaf
McDavid had 2GF 2GA when matched up against Getzlaf
RNH had 1GF 4GA when matched up against Getzlaf.
Letestu had 0GF 2GA when matched up against Getzlaf.

RNH was losing that match up for the Oilers. Draisaitl and McDavid were able to play it even.

Okay fine. RNH isn't as good as Draisaitl or McDavid. Not even remotely close. That's fine. No harm in that. They are elite players in this league. He's not. But when his role was changed for the final 3 games and he was matched up against the Ducks bottom 2 lines he couldn't get anything done.

So we've got a player who isn't good enough to saw off with other teams top offensive players, but then isn't good enough to take advantage of other teams bottom players.

So... what's the point?

I donno. Am I just reading the numbers wrong?

 

[Halibut]

He doesn't hit, he doesn't win faceoffs, he doesn't score... but visually, he looked fantastic while doing it.

Exactly. If Eberle managed a two drag here or there he'd have been just as visually fantastic. Maybe even more so.

I never bad mouthed either of them while the games were still going, at least not saying the team was better off without them, but now that the games are over it's pretty clear both are a problem. If they'd managed to contribute even a little bit somewhere this series could have turned out much different. Eberle as he is right now might be worse but I think he's a more valuable contributor to this team if he somehow manages to find and aggressive streak and get some offence back in his game. I dont see what the upside is with Nuge. He doesnt really fit as a 3rd line center, not big enough, good enough on faceoffs and he's never had the offensive instinct to really be a difference maker. I cant see him transitioning to the wing, just cant imagine him grinding on the boards and winning puck battles.

It's pretty clear we cant afford either of them once McDavid gets the big paycheck. I dont see how they fit on this team now. I'd really like to find a way to move both even if the trades dont provide much in return, hopefully we can fill our holes in other ways. In reality moving them doesnt create holes in our lineup as they are only taking up space not making the team better. We saw it this playoffs, we saw it all year, it's time to move on.

 

[oobga]

Let's just fact check this a little.

Goals against when Getzlaf was on the ice at ES vs:

Nuge 3
Draissiatl 3
McDavid 2
Letestu 2

Of those 3 goals Nuge had a direct responsibility in 1, the Getzlaf chip. The other two were a terrible turnover by Nurse and the weak clear by Eberle that resulted in the goal on which Perry interfered with Talbot. So in 5 of the 7 games Getzlaf was not on the ice for any ES goal at the same time as Nuge.

Faceoffs:

This must favour Leon and Letestu...Or does it.

Nuge (17) vs Getzlaf (13) = 56.7%

Leon (22) VS Getzlaf (28) =44%

Letestu (3) vs Getzlaf (5) =37.5%

Finally on the possession front.

In the seven games when head to head Getzlaf had a posseion advantage in 4 games to Nuge's 3 with each player having one dominant game vs the other and pretty much all the rest being close.

Leon lost the possession war to Getzlaf all 7 games with 4 being quite lopsided.

Bottomline is that it is fair to be critical of the RNH line for not scoring despite actually creating a fairly significant number of chances but the rest is pretty much 100% false.

Drai's numbers are skewed by some pretty brutal zone starts against Getz. He had 1 offensive zone start and 12 defensive ones against Getz in each of games 5 and 6. Nuge never at any point had to deal with that kind of pressure in his own zone against Getz. When McLellan was trying to match Drai vs Getz, it was true matching, getting him out there to battle right off faceoffs. For Nuge, it was more on the fly light matching, catching Getz part way into shifts. Was a tall order for Drai at this point in his career, especially with Lucic playing boat anchor in game 7. I think he did as well as you could expect.

 

[nabob]

Just the regular Nuge detractors doing Nuge detracting things. Next to Drai and McDavid he probably created the 3rd most offensive chances. Had zero puck luck for sure but played very well against Pavelski and was a huge reason we made it past the first round.

 

[Asher]

Let's just fact check this a little.

Goals against when Getzlaf was on the ice at ES vs:

Nuge 3
Draissiatl 3
McDavid 2
Letestu 2

Of those 3 goals Nuge had a direct responsibility in 1, the Getzlaf chip. The other two were a terrible turnover by Nurse and the weak clear by Eberle that resulted in the goal on which Perry interfered with Talbot. So in 5 of the 7 games Getzlaf was not on the ice for any ES goal at the same time as Nuge.

Faceoffs:

This must favour Leon and Letestu...Or does it.

Nuge (17) vs Getzlaf (13) = 56.7%

Leon (22) VS Getzlaf (28) =44%

Letestu (3) vs Getzlaf (5) =37.5%

Finally on the possession front.

In the seven games when head to head Getzlaf had a posseion advantage in 4 games to Nuge's 3 with each player having one dominant game vs the other and pretty much all the rest being close.

Leon lost the possession war to Getzlaf all 7 games with 4 being quite lopsided.

Bottomline is that it is fair to be critical of the RNH line for not scoring despite actually creating a fairly significant number of chances but the rest is pretty much 100% false.

All I can say is if the future is McD and Drai as the top 2 centers then I'd rather have a true #3C that is strong defensively and good at faceoffs and can chip in offensively (a Brodziak type when he was younger) then a smallish RNH making 6M per.

 

[frag2]

Just the regular Nuge detractors doing Nuge detracting things. Next to Drai and McDavid he probably created the 3rd most offensive chances. Had zero puck luck for sure but played very well against Pavelski and was a huge reason we made it past the first round.

In a salary cap world, 6M to just blanket players and provide no offence isn't exactly being financially responsible. If he had scored at even his regular season rate, I'd be meh, not a fan, but meh. But he's not.

All this talk about puck luck to 'rationalize' his lack of offence, is it even quantifiable?

That said, he's probably lesser of the two evils between him and Eberle. The latter is so afraid of contact, it's a joke.

 

[ujju2]

He doesn't hit, he doesn't win faceoffs, he doesn't score... but visually, he looked fantastic while doing it.

While he's not overly physical, he did show in the playoffs that he's more than willing to and capable of laying a solid hit. Nothing where the guy goes flying, but simple checks to take the puck.

 

[ujju2]

Just the regular Nuge detractors doing Nuge detracting things. Next to Drai and McDavid he probably created the 3rd most offensive chances. Had zero puck luck for sure but played very well against Pavelski and was a huge reason we made it past the first round.

Agreed.

 

[McDeepika]

Let's just fact check this a little.

Goals against when Getzlaf was on the ice at ES vs:

Nuge 3
Draissiatl 3
McDavid 2
Letestu 2

Of those 3 goals Nuge had a direct responsibility in 1, the Getzlaf chip. The other two were a terrible turnover by Nurse and the weak clear by Eberle that resulted in the goal on which Perry interfered with Talbot. So in 5 of the 7 games Getzlaf was not on the ice for any ES goal at the same time as Nuge.

Faceoffs:

This must favour Leon and Letestu...Or does it.

Nuge (17) vs Getzlaf (13) = 56.7%

Leon (22) VS Getzlaf (28) =44%

Letestu (3) vs Getzlaf (5) =37.5%

Finally on the possession front.

In the seven games when head to head Getzlaf had a posseion advantage in 4 games to Nuge's 3 with each player having one dominant game vs the other and pretty much all the rest being close.

Leon lost the possession war to Getzlaf all 7 games with 4 being quite lopsided.

Bottomline is that it is fair to be critical of the RNH line for not scoring despite actually creating a fairly significant number of chances but the rest is pretty much 100% false.

The only justification RNH fans can come up with is he is some sort of wizard defensively. How valuable is having a defensive specialist if you can't stop top players?

I do give him credit for shutting down Vermette. That is about the extent of his usefulness.

 

[belair]

In a salary cap world, 6M to just blanket players and provide no offence isn't exactly being financially responsible. If he had scored at even his regular season rate, I'd be meh, not a fan, but meh. But he's not.

All this talk about puck luck to 'rationalize' his lack of offence, is it even quantifiable?

That said, he's probably lesser of the two evils between him and Eberle. The latter is so afraid of contact, it's a joke.

Watch what Hanzal gets in free agency.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Just the regular Nuge detractors doing Nuge detracting things. Next to Drai and McDavid he probably created the 3rd most offensive chances. Had zero puck luck for sure but played very well against Pavelski and was a huge reason we made it past the first round.

It's all fine and good but if you can't score it doesn't matter how many chances you create.

Think the Caps are feeling good because they created all those chances?

 

[Jet Walters]

Watch what Hanzal gets in free agency.

Hanzal is elite defensively and on the dot. RNH is elite in what aspect of the game? Maybe his play in the neutral zone would qualify as elite? I guess he could be viewed as having elite status on the half wall on the PP, and his career numbers back that up. Too bad he has to get in line behind McDavid for those prime minutes or else I could possibly justify keeping him.

 

[belair]

Hanzal is elite defensively and on the dot. RNH is elite in what aspect of the game? Maybe his play in the neutral zone would qualify as elite? I guess he could be viewed as having elite status on the half wall on the PP, and his career numbers back that up. Too bad he has to get in line behind McDavid for those prime minutes or else I could possibly justify keeping him.

The quote was '6M to just blanket players and provide no offence isn't exactly being financially responsible'. Hanzal isn't elite anything, but the response is directly to that quote which is what Hanzal is supposed to do.

 

[Up the Irons]

Just the regular Nuge detractors doing Nuge detracting things. Next to Drai and McDavid he probably created the 3rd most offensive chances. Had zero puck luck for sure but played very well against Pavelski and was a huge reason we made it past the first round.

just the usual excusers from the usual Nuge excusers.

Zero puck luck!! good grief. yeah, none of those long range wristers found their way into the net. nuts!!

doesn't hit, can't win a faceoff, isn't much of a passer, can't score to save his life.
but, he..... what is it again that he does so well for 6mil per?

You know guys, just because you liked a player 5 years ago, doesn't mean you must never change your mind about him. You don't win some loyalty badge of honour for pretending a player is better than he really is. Letestu is better. Desharnais got more done out there. Kassian, Slepeshev both score multiple times. You literally can replace Nuge for half the price.

there is nothing wrong with admitting that Nuge simply isn't that good.

 

[Oilking83]

just the usual excusers from the usual Nuge excusers.

Zero puck luck!! good grief. yeah, none of those long range wristers found their way into the net. nuts!!

doesn't hit, can't win a faceoff, isn't much of a passer, can't score to save his life.
but, he..... what is it again that he does so well for 6mil per?

You know guys, just because you liked a player 5 years ago, doesn't mean you must never change your mind about him. You don't win some loyalty badge of honour for pretending a player is better than he really is. Letestu is better. Desharnais got more done out there. Kassian, Slepeshev both score multiple times. You literally can replace Nuge for half the price.

there is nothing wrong with admitting that Nuge simply isn't that good.

He picks up the pick and skates quickly through the neutral zone like he's about to do something interesting then shoots a weak wrister from 40ft out into the goalies crest... He does that very well, maybe even best in the league?

 

[frag2]

The quote was '6M to just blanket players and provide no offence isn't exactly being financially responsible'. Hanzal isn't elite anything, but the response is directly to that quote which is what Hanzal is supposed to do.

And 6M is justified for Nuge because someone is gonna be [just as?] stupid and give that to Hanzal? The excuses you keep dishing out to prop Nuge/Eberle are just reaching for it now.

But I guess we should all be happy with his game because someone else is getting overpaid as well.

 

[nabob]

just the usual excusers from the usual Nuge excusers.

Zero puck luck!! good grief. yeah, none of those long range wristers found their way into the net. nuts!!

doesn't hit, can't win a faceoff, isn't much of a passer, can't score to save his life.
but, he..... what is it again that he does so well for 6mil per?

You know guys, just because you liked a player 5 years ago, doesn't mean you must never change your mind about him. You don't win some loyalty badge of honour for pretending a player is better than he really is. Letestu is better. Desharnais got more done out there. Kassian, Slepeshev both score multiple times. You literally can replace Nuge for half the price.

there is nothing wrong with admitting that Nuge simply isn't that good.

Please suggest a replacement 40-65 point player who can play the tough minutes against the other teams top players and not get killed. I'll wait for a response that is not full of hyperbole worthy of a response.

 

[belair]

And 6M is justified for Nuge because someone is gonna be [just as?] stupid and give that to Hanzal? The excuses you keep dishing out to prop Nuge/Eberle are just reaching for it now.

But I guess we should all be happy with his game because someone else is getting overpaid as well.

Honestly I don't even justify his $6m. If it were up to me he'd make less, but he doesn't so I don't worry about it. Honestly, it's kind of pathetic people obsess over it so much. Katz is doing OK, guys.

The role Nugent-Hopkins plays with this team currently--honestly--got us to the second round. Not solely, but he was a key contributor. Had Joe Pavelski's line got any traction in that first series the Oilers weren't getting out of that series.

The tunnel-vision is so strong on this forum that both of these guys are being seen as the same guy. It's astonishing how many posts are backed on a preconceived bias. The fact there's now fuel for it is almost nauseating.

Jordan Eberle and Ryan Nugent-Hopkins had two very different playoffs. Prior to the playoffs beginning I'd personally come to the conclusion that Jordan Eberle was likely heading out of town this summer and it had nothing to do with his production or lack-there-of. His role is quite easily replaceable. Ryan Nugent-Hopkins isn't.

 

[bobbythebrain]

Please suggest a replacement 40-65 point player who can play the tough minutes against the other teams top players and not get killed. I'll wait for a response that is not full of hyperbole worthy of a response.

He got killed. He was massive minus player on a positive team. He had a negative corsi to boot


He's a 40 point player who can't win draws.

That should be your question

 

[Asiaoil]

Please suggest a replacement 40-65 point player who can play the tough minutes against the other teams top players and not get killed. I'll wait for a response that is not full of hyperbole worthy of a response.

Couturier - just a tad shy on 40 points but his ES points per 60 was better than RNH in 3 out of the last 4 years. Pretty much better at everything but all-situations boxcars and almost $2 million cheaper.

 

[Jet Walters]

Please suggest a replacement 40-65 point player who can play the tough minutes against the other teams top players and not get killed. I'll wait for a response that is not full of hyperbole worthy of a response.

His 65 point days are done in Edmonton unless McDavid or Draisaitl miss significant time due to injury. He's a 40-45 point guy here going forward in his current role and I said the exact same thing in October 2016.

RNH has always put up a good chunk of his points on the PP, and has been fairly average offensively in 5vs5 situations. For instance he only scored 1 point more than Kassian in way more minutes in those situations this year.

So I look at it a bit differently than just raw point totals. If we are only looking to replace his 5vs5 production here are some centers who finished with as many 5vs5 points and make less than RNH.

Perrault
Hartman
Little
Hanzal
Couturier
S. Reinhart
Faksa
Domi
Dubinski
Wilson
Backlund
Dzingle
Eichel
Wennberg
Pageau
Jenner
Filpulla
Brassard
Gagner
Sedin
Atkinson
Zajac
Lindholm
Rask
Anisimov
Barkov
Johansen
Horvat
Johansson
Turris
Trochek
Danault
Carter
Miller
Granlund
E.Staal
Tavares
Seguin
Bailey
Bozak
Nyquist
Coyle
Kadri
Matthews

Wow that took a while. All of those centers made less than RNH and put up as many or more 5vs5 points as him. Not all of those players are suited for a shutdown role, but I would argue that neither is RNH.

As for his PP production, it shouldn't be too hard to find someone to distribute the puck and pick up assists from the halfwall on PP#2. Caggiula might be a candidate for that role. He's more of a shooting threat than RNH in that spot too.

 

[belair]

Couturier - just a tad shy on 40 points but his ES points per 60 was better than RNH in 3 out of the last 4 years. Pretty much better at everything but all-situations boxcars and almost $2 million cheaper.

And he's every bit unavailable.

You've been around here a while, Asia. Good centers are impossible to acquire. Which is why you should never trade them.

 

[BoldNewLettuce]

A few years ago sure. Hanzal was a top 6 two way beast.

I'm not sure he is that anymore.

 

[Up the Irons]

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