The novelty of this team is wearing off quickly!

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Fresh From The Oven
Nov 24, 2009
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Sorry to be optimistic about the state of the team but we're not too far away from establishing a sustainable contender. Starting with coaching and systems, this team is rarely outchanced and even less frequently outworked. The prospects pool looks amazing... how often do you pick up a #1 overall caliber player and have him fight for the #1 spot in your prospects pool? In just the past 2 years we've seen guys like Brown establish themselves as realistic NHL options while continuing to add complimentary pieces like Leipsic, Corrado and Brennan. The upcoming draft will let us acquire another 1 or 2 significant pieces. And while all of it's happening, any number of our swings for the fences should result in a triple or a homerun.
 

supermann_98

Registered User
May 8, 2002
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Here I thought it was the media who wouldn't stand for a lengthy rebuild because they'd have nothing to talk about.

I always figured the real fans were ready to suck for a hopeless year or two as is required to build a team in the salary cap era. This thread is concerning to me because we as fans need to all be on the same page.

We can't let Simmons or Feschuk or Cox put ideas in our head that this pain is not exactly what we need. Obviously not watching games, not clicking on their articles, not caring about this season of Leafs hockey, none of it is good for their employers. Their employers want to sell advertising, want to sell papers, and with the majority of casual fans showing a complete disregard and ignoring the team this year they can't do that.

The only way I see a speeding up process for the rebuild is getting Stamkos. Only THEN would I be on board with packaging up some of the picks/prospects we've piled up to get an upgrade on our NHL roster.
Saying that I wouldn't move our top 5-6 prospects, nor any 1st rounders
 

HoweHullOrr

Registered User
Oct 3, 2013
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Sorry to be optimistic about the state of the team but we're not too far away from establishing a sustainable contender. Starting with coaching and systems, this team is rarely outchanced and even less frequently outworked. The prospects pool looks amazing... how often do you pick up a #1 overall caliber player and have him fight for the #1 spot in your prospects pool? In just the past 2 years we've seen guys like Brown establish themselves as realistic NHL options while continuing to add complimentary pieces like Leipsic, Corrado and Brennan. The upcoming draft will let us acquire another 1 or 2 significant pieces. And while all of it's happening, any number of our swings for the fences should result in a triple or a homerun.

I guess it depends on the definition of "not too far away". We have a good start for sure, and the coaching and systems point is duly noted. But, I think the operative word is "start" as in yes we have started. We have Reilly, and a couple of good forwards in the system (Nylander, Marner). Hopefully they emerge as the top percentile 1st liners that we are hoping for.

So, what's missing? IMHO, it would be:

  1. Another two defenders to fill out the top three defensemen slots. Maybe we have a surprise in the making with one of existing prospects? Maybe not.
  2. Another top percentile #1 C/#2C. If both Nylander and Marner lock down these two pivotal center positions, then minimally we are in need of another top percentile winger (top 10%).
  3. A good goalie. It doesn't have to be a Price or King Henrik equivalent, but definitely needs to be a well above average tender.

My best guess is that we are about 4 players short from building the core. If you get one of those slots filled by someone who was drafted, or will be drafted at a lower round, and one bust in our 1st rounders, its pretty normal and it evens out.

If we get one of those missing core players per draft, then we need four (4) drafts. If we get two of those missing link players per draft, then we have achieved exceptional results, and we will need two more drafts.

Then you need to add a couple of years (minimally) for development.

From a statistical averages point of view, thinking that multiple best case scenarios will compile together with clock-work precision is a formula that is based on multiplying probabilities together. From a mathematical perspective, the probability in these cases is actually quite low.

We have been hearing for at least the last 10 years (substitute 10 with another number of your choosing, it doesn't matter) that we are just two pieces away. When you add all of this together, it seems unlikely that we will see a contender in a short window of time (e.g. 2 years). It took Chicago 7 years to build a Cup winner, and LA Kings 6 by my calculations. Those were exceptional results.

And then, the Leafs don't live in a static environment. Other teams are similarly rebuilding. Is our rebuild better than those other teams rebuild? That's another variable well worth considering that can affect the outcome.

I really hope I'm wrong with all this thinking, but this is what my rational, gut feeling is on this topic. I realize this will not be real popular thinking for many, and I expect an onslaught.

It's food for thought. Again, just my two cents.
 
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Pookie

Wear a mask
Oct 23, 2013
16,172
6,684
Sorry to be optimistic about the state of the team but we're not too far away from establishing a sustainable contender. Starting with coaching and systems, this team is rarely outchanced and even less frequently outworked. The prospects pool looks amazing... how often do you pick up a #1 overall caliber player and have him fight for the #1 spot in your prospects pool? In just the past 2 years we've seen guys like Brown establish themselves as realistic NHL options while continuing to add complimentary pieces like Leipsic, Corrado and Brennan. The upcoming draft will let us acquire another 1 or 2 significant pieces. And while all of it's happening, any number of our swings for the fences should result in a triple or a homerun.

It's good to be an optimist.

Let's not overstate things though. We need realistic expectations and unfounded optimism can lead quickly to unrealistic expectations.

Take your point about being "rarely out chanced".

Reality is that they have played 13 games. 395 shots for. 390 against. In 6 games, they outshot their opponents. In 6 games, they were outshot by their opponents and in one game the shot total was level.

Seems like being out chanced happens half the time. Not a rare event at all.

If we overstate the obvious, you can see how unrealistic expectations can be placed on our "amazing prospects" pool… which includes highest picks in the last 5 drafts taken at 4th, 8th, 21st, 5th and 22nd overall… the latter is no longer with the team.

The upside is ahead no doubt… but there is a long, long way to go. Our biggest risk is that the Board decides to take a short cut because it stinks so bad.
 

X66

114-110
Aug 18, 2008
13,578
7,445
Babcock having buyers regret?

He flat out told the media and the fans that there was going to be pain.
 

The Apologist

Apologizing for Leaf garbage since 1979
Oct 16, 2007
12,250
2,966
Leaf Nation Hell
I dont get the title. This team is exactly as advertised. Im actually enjoying watching MoRiles develop. Glad however that our other top end talent isnt part of this crapshow. Also saving some money. No need for tickets, jerseys, sports channels. Lotsa money in my pocket.
 

Tyler Biggs*

Guest
Pretty incredible start to the tank tbh. The teams deemed to be the worst and would be competing with us for the bottom are actually doing decently acquiring points (Arizona, New Jersey). If by some miracle Arizona and New Jersey keeps up a decent pace and we keep putting our same terrible lineup on the ice we should be fine.
I don't like losing either guys but this should be the last year we try and bottom out we need some more high end talent. Honestly though this looks like another very good 1st round. Since Edmoney is going to win the lottery again we will still get a very good player hopefully a defenceman either Chychrun or Olli Juolevi who plays for the Knights that kids a beast.
 

Clark4Ever

What we do in hockey echoes in eternity...
Oct 10, 2010
11,648
8,293
T.O.
We will be very thankful for all these heartbreaking losses this summer at the draft. Keep your eye on the big prize.
 

cookie

Fresh From The Oven
Nov 24, 2009
6,922
1,425
Oven then stomach
It's good to be an optimist.

Let's not overstate things though. We need realistic expectations and unfounded optimism can lead quickly to unrealistic expectations.

Take your point about being "rarely out chanced".

Reality is that they have played 13 games. 395 shots for. 390 against. In 6 games, they outshot their opponents. In 6 games, they were outshot by their opponents and in one game the shot total was level.

Seems like being out chanced happens half the time. Not a rare event at all.

If we overstate the obvious, you can see how unrealistic expectations can be placed on our "amazing prospects" pool… which includes highest picks in the last 5 drafts taken at 4th, 8th, 21st, 5th and 22nd overall… the latter is no longer with the team.

The upside is ahead no doubt… but there is a long, long way to go. Our biggest risk is that the Board decides to take a short cut because it stinks so bad.

Re: chances
I never realized that the shot counts were so near even... The 5v5 scoring chances at the very least show 6 games we were outchanced of which 2 were -1.

Re: prospect pool
I think the reason why I subconsciously used the 2 year mark was because of this. Nylander might have been picked 8th overall but his development after being drafted is super. Enough so that it warrants a discussion about who's #1 in the pool: he or a guy like Marner who could be considered a first overall in most other drafts.

Re: board
My rationalization of the Burke years is based on a win-now mandate given to him from the board. The main difference between both regimes is the unprecedented contract given to Babcock and the expectation of us sucking the first few years.

My reason for optimism is a combination of fandom and me acknowledging that the team's management is emulating what present-day winners have been doing.
 
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saltming

Fan Addict
Oct 6, 2015
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Same with players: the difference between Ovechkin and Tanner Glass is big, but probably smaller in reality that most realize. This is because at the professional level of anything, the best in the world are only marginally better than the other people who are also the best.

This is important because if players had a greater range of abilities and the difference between them was larger (like it is in lower levels of the game) then luck would be less of a factor. However, in the NHL it is so difficult to get high-quality shots/scoring chances and the goalies and defenses are so good that it is impossible (over enough time) to get enough of them to win regularly while being outshot every game.

I think this reason is the most important reason as to why the system needed to change. It's a long term view and IMO the leafs will get better as this seaso progress. Of course since they are the worst team better isn't saying much.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Jame...-Quality-Matter--Coyotes-vs-Rangers/200/72326
 

cookie

Fresh From The Oven
Nov 24, 2009
6,922
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Oven then stomach
We're still making the playoffs though right guys?

The plan is to eventually make the playoffs and have the team in a state that it continues to do so. That way, instead of trading futures in order to make the playoffs, we are in a position to trade them so we can make a deep run. It's like that story of the story of the woodcutter. Either slave away cutting the tree with a dull ax or take a little time to sharpen it and easily cut it down.
 

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