Speculation: The narrative in TOR has changed so quickly

[Gallagbi]

Everyone on the team should be included in the team defence, but I am not arguing that a goalie is a defenceman.

I am arguing that he number of goals scored against a hockey team make up a part of a hockey team's defensive metrics.

If you don't agree with that, please tell me what group of metrics goals against belongs in?

Does it matter what it's classified as? You're holding on to something rather than looking at the big picture discussion.

If a team allows 5 goals a game on 5 shots from the Blueline, nightly, that's a goaltending problem even though their GA/G will be the worst in the league.

Conversely a team could allow 60 shots including 25 odd man rushes but the goalie stands on his head. Nobody would say the team played well defensively even if the goalie had a 60-save shutout.

When I, personally, refer to defensive play on going to be speaking about skater defense. I think most people are like this and it's the point that was shown with the skater stats against metrics

 

[egd27]

Obviously I and everyone will agree with that. You have gotten so far away from the original argument you lost yourself here.

The original argument was that I disagreed with the statement "Leafs had their best defensive results this past year, which is incredibly clear by every single metric, both basic and "advanced"

I cited the GA/G metric as an example. That's all.

Again, you and the other guy apparently disagree that GA/G is a defensive metric. So be it.

Enjoy your evening

 

[Zybalto]

Everyone on the team should be included in the team defence, but I am not arguing that a goalie is a defenceman.

I am arguing that he number of goals scored against a hockey team make up a part of a hockey team's defensive metrics.

If you don't agree with that, please tell me what group of metrics goals against belongs in?

Goals against = Team D + Goalie performance.

You can literally have the best D in hockey but if your goalies are awful you will still have a high goals against.

Before they started Binnington in their cup season, the Blues were 24th in the NHL for fewest Goals against. Were they a bad defensive team?

The rest of the year they allowed the 2nd fewest goals. From a bottom 10 team to 2nd in the league for goals against. Why?

Its because they were an elite defensive team without decent goaltending.
Their xGA ranking on the year? 1st in the NHL.

...and yet if they had continued with Allen/Johnson in net, they wouldnt have even made the playoffs.

 

[Gallagbi]

High danger chances against haven't really changed much the entire time. They've remained at the same spot just below league average every year. Perhaps that is part of the issue in terms of perception? High danger chances are what register the most by the eye test, and will most stick in memory, and with those changing the least of all the defensive metrics, we have a scenario where high danger chances represent a bigger percentage of the expected goals against total than before, even though the actual amount of high danger chances allowed hasn't changed.

Perhaps because all of the other defensive metrics have improved so considerably around it in comparison, it's creating a faulty perception when mixed with the worse goaltending...

It's an interesting thought.

Personally I think goaltending has just improved league-wide and many don't understand how many difficult saves goalies make, so they point to the D. It's a game of mistakes, that's how shots are created. Your goalie has to stop a certain portion of them otherwise they aren't doing enough.

Every shot is from a mistake. Not ever shot should go in. This year too many of those shots, given their quality, went in. Hoping Fred bounced back and Campbell is a clear upgrade on the garbage backups we've had before him.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Personally I think goaltending has just improved league-wide and many don't understand how many difficult saves goalies make, so they point to the D. It's a game of mistakes, that's how shots are created. Your goalie has to stop a certain portion of them otherwise they aren't doing enough.

Yes, this is a big part of the issue. There is usually something that one of the skaters did at some point before a goal that is possible to connect to the goal, because mistakes happen all the time by everybody, so goalies tend to get absolved of criticism, even if they are letting in those "mistakes" at an unacceptable rate relative to the rest of the league.

 

[Its not your fault]

Grit they all may of had..but the loss of the Big hammers in Martin/Polak far exceeded the secondary gritt of Kadri/Komarov....Hyman/Brown both there games were dog the puck which is good and all...but no one on opposing teams feared the on ice for check of a Martin(crusher)more than opposing D-men....the on ice mic's said it all as d-partners vocalized frantically when they seen there mate tracked by he..(Martin..Martin) was commonly heard and for good reason...He and as well as Polak in the defensive end had the ability to wear you out and force turnovers due to the Opp. looking over their shoulders.

On the Isles this same tenacity is now expanded with both Ciz/Cutter playing with Martin...all will lay the BOOM...and do not fear repercussions because of the Big Hammer on the line......IDENTITY LINE says it all...everyone plays bigger on the team...you can try and duplicate the senario but will come up short.

Just like there cup chance did? I don't think those guys win it for us either. Your on point with how Martin works for a team. But he's not the only soul that does that and we don't have the other 2 guys you mentioned so. That line would not be the same here.

 

[Bomber0104]

The OP asks "what happened?".

I'll tell you exactly what happened. Nothing.

The posters that said it then were flat out wrong and they still are and I suspect always will be.

What happens is some "genius" comes up with some zany argument and defends it to the death usually in a condescending and derogatory manner.

Then when they are proven wrong they dissappear and don't take ownership. This type of poster has no shame and is a "victim of society". They have no substance. They are bells and whistles / sizzle over substance mentality kind of people.

The Leafs have been getting worse every single year since Dubas took over and has been handing out his weakly-negotiated contracts.

There's little more to be said.

Anyone critical is and always has been right, and people that haven't have been wrong.

Period.

Until there's success, this will always be the story and people have to accept it.

 

[kk87]

The Leafs have been getting worse every single year since Dubas took over and has been handing out his weakly-negotiated contracts.

There's little more to be said.

Anyone critical is and always has been right, and people that haven't have been wrong.

Period.

Until there's success, this will always be the story and people have to accept it.

Speaking in such absolute, unequivocal terms like this prevents any sort of conversation and natural progression that could otherwise happen (on any topic, for that matter). I think Dubas has been building extremely well through international recruitment, good drafting, and internal development, despite his flaws; some people, like yourself, think he's done a poor job and has made the team worse. These are both legitimate opinions that deserve to be discussed - but to say "my side's 100% right, and everyone else is wrong" is painfully naive.

 

[Bomber0104]

Speaking in such absolute, unequivocal terms like this prevents any sort of conversation and natural progression that could otherwise happen (on any topic, for that matter). I think Dubas has been building extremely well through international recruitment, good drafting, and internal development, despite his flaws; some people, like yourself, think he's done a poor job and has made the team worse. These are both legitimate opinions that deserve to be discussed - but to say "my side's 100% right, and everyone else is wrong" is painfully naive.

I've always been willing to converse and debate the merits of Dubas-hockey.

Unfortunately I always end up being right about how terrible it is and I've been entirely consistent about that since Day One.

You can like certain aspects of Dubas' idea of what hockey outta be, but I'm sure you can say the same about 30 other GM's in the league.

That doesn't make ours good.

 

[kb]

Speaking in such absolute, unequivocal terms like this prevents any sort of conversation and natural progression that could otherwise happen (on any topic, for that matter). I think Dubas has been building extremely well through international recruitment, good drafting, and internal development, despite his flaws; some people, like yourself, think he's done a poor job and has made the team worse. These are both legitimate opinions that deserve to be discussed - but to say "my side's 100% right, and everyone else is wrong" is painfully naive.

It's naive, and just plain wrong too. lol

 

[Bomber0104]

It's naive, and just plain wrong too. lol

As evidenced by zero success?

Yeah, think again.

 

[Duckrider]

It doesn't measure just defensive results in any world, unless you believe that goaltenders don't exist. It is a combination of defense and goaltending.

Me thinks he knows exactly what it is.

 

[Cobra777]

I like the pickups as well given our cap constraints, but other than Brodie, all our pickups are off the scrap heap. Not sure we upgraded on AJ though. I hope with the upgrade to the D, Andy makes the Leafs fans blaming him for the loss to CBJ eat some crow.

Don't worry bud just have an inkling Wayner is gonna be good for us provided he is given every opportunity to play and Jumbo making a good diff because he can pass that puck and now have some size in both players to finally stand in front of that net and bang in many beautiful rebounds because they are not scared to play there and are focused on the puck.

 

[Cobra777]

I disagree. The majority of the top 6 is not tough. How many fighting majors does the big 4 have between them?

I fully agree but not just for the fighting part of it, but I never see any of them even get remotely angry and take a run for a big hit on an unsuspecting D, break a stick, or a cross check, face wash or an in your face chirp or anything, and if so between all of 4 combined one could count on one hand for a full season which is a decent concern. You can't win with just pouting and hanging your head on the bench when things don't go according.

 

[Leaf Fans]

I've always been willing to converse and debate the merits of Dubas-hockey.

Unfortunately I always end up being right about how terrible it is and I've been entirely consistent about that since Day One.

You can like certain aspects of Dubas' idea of what hockey outta be, but I'm sure you can say the same about 30 other GM's in the league.

That doesn't make ours good.

You should bring some of those arguments to the board because you haven't been right here.

 

[Bomber0104]

You should bring some of those arguments to the board because you haven't been right here.

I've been as right about Dubas as I was about Burke and Nonis.

All it's going to take is a modicum of success to prove me wrong about Dubas yet that still hasn't happened.

And I spell success as in playoff wins, not losing to the Columbus Blue Jackets and missing the playoffs.

Those standards are completely ordinary.

 

[Leaf Fans]

I've been as right about Dubas as I was about Burke and Nonis.

All it's going to take is a modicum of success to prove me wrong about Dubas yet that still hasn't happened.

And I spell success as in playoff wins, not losing to the Columbus Blue Jackets and missing the playoffs.

Those standards are completely ordinary.

No one thinks losing to Columbus was a success.

 

[Cobra777]

Like why does that matter? Do you really want them dropping the gloves?

No not necessarily but some kind of emotion like give a hard check, show a tad of aggression and not avoiding a face to face scrum all within the confines of not having to fight instead of just hangin your head down on the bench would speak enough volume

 

[Maple Leaf]

Just need one more goon

 

[Bomber0104]

No one thinks losing to Columbus was a success.

So Dubas failed.

Thank you for admitting that.

There's not going to be much more tolerance for failure, in my opinion. People with track records of success get a bit of rope in the NHL.

Dubas doesn't fit that bill unfortunately.

 

[The Shrike]

So Dubas failed.

Thank you for admitting that.

There's not going to be much more tolerance for failure, in my opinion. People with track records of success get a bit of rope in the NHL.

Dubas doesn't fit that bill unfortunately.

Yes, he failed to have a goaltender that is superior to our opponent in all four 1st round playoff losses.

Surely Freddy has had enough rope already.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I've been as right about Dubas as I was about Burke and Nonis.

All it's going to take is a modicum of success to prove me wrong about Dubas yet that still hasn't happened.

And I spell success as in playoff wins, not losing to the Columbus Blue Jackets and missing the playoffs.

Those standards are completely ordinary.

Yeah, I'm the same man. It's rough.

I've been 100% correct, top to bottom, about literally EVERYTHING for half a decade... and because the team has been so horrible in that time, being "correct" comes across as being "negative".

I think many of the posters here think that the realists like us are routing against the team, and have just been lucky in our negativity. But they couldn't be further from the truth. I desperately want this team to win. The problem is that our management NEVER does the right thing, then honest people like me and you criticize them for it, the team DOES fail, and we're called "negative".

I wish so badly that I was sometimes just wrong. That these horrible management decisions just lucked into a successful team somehow. But that will likely never happen. I don't think people like us will ever be wrong about this team. Why? Because we're realists. We assess what is happening based on reality, and not based on delusional fandom. When management starts making GOOD decisions, we'll jump on board with the team, and they will likely succeed. But I will never lie to myself about what is happening.

 

[Metroid]

We have two posters who have been right about everything for a decade. Holy moly why are they not our GMs?! We could have 5 cups now!!
What are you guys doing wasting your talents in a message board?????

 

[Bomber0104]

Yes, he failed to have a goaltender that is superior to our opponent in all four 1st round playoff losses.

Surely Freddy has had enough rope already.

Success and failure doesn't all come down to one player in hockey.

I'm sorry if that's what you think, but it's just plain wrong and merely an attempt to scapegoat said failure.

It's a very tiresome and overused excuse and we've seen it used here year after year...

 

[Leaf Fans]

So Dubas failed.

Thank you for admitting that.

There's not going to be much more tolerance for failure, in my opinion. People with track records of success get a bit of rope in the NHL.

Dubas doesn't fit that bill unfortunately.

Well, the whole Leafs organization failed. We were supposed to be a playoff team. Dubas said as much.