the most penalized team in the league

[Til the End of Time]

the penguins are the most penalized team in the league currently, in terms of total PIM and PIM per game. winnipeg is the second worst, slightly less total PIM and PIM per game, but more individual penalties overall.

in any case, this is clearly too much, and i dont hear this being talked, aside from blaming downie. this team is very undisciplined. i know this has been a problem in years past and ill-advised penalites have hurt this team in big ways in the postseason. and it could very well happen once again. the pk has been good but its not good enough to make up for all these penalties

what is the problem? is it johnston or players? i hope we dont blame the refs. what is being done to address this? do people have hope the penguins will be more composed in the playoffs?

imo, this is another big indicator that this team is poised for another disappointing spring.

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[Jaded-Fan]

the penguins are the most penalized team in the league currently, in terms of total PIM and PIM per game. winnipeg is the second worst, slightly less total PIM and PIM per game, but more individual penalties overall.

in any case, this is clearly too much, and i dont hear this being talked, aside from blaming downie. this team is very undisciplined. i know this has been a problem in years past and ill-advised penalites have hurt this team in big ways in the postseason. and it could very well happen once again. the pk has been good but its not good enough to make up for all these penalties

what is the problem? is it johnston or players? i hope we dont blame the refs. what is being done to address this? do people have hope the penguins will be more composed in the playoffs?

imo, this is another big indicator that this team is poised for another disappointing spring.

Heh, you have not read my posts for the past couple of months.

The real problem has more been the lack of legitimate power play opportunities for the Pens rather than penalties calls though. Most of the penalties called have been legit. Not so the other way.

But as for the penalties called. Yes, the Pens are undisciplined. They also are the most injured team in the league save for a couple of teams so you had a lot of AHL level players either making mistakes and taking penalties or making mistakes and core players taking penalties to make up for it, or core players trying to do too much themselves leading to penalties.

Also, face it, the refs have had an obvious agenda since October regarding the Pens. They do not even hide it, although the last two games they have for the first time in memory seemed to be fairer, so maybe that has finally ended. I hope.

As for Downie he does not get phantom calls so much as obvious calls for things done to him as not called. He is not why the Pens have been short so often, except if he is the reason the refs have been bending us over for months now.

 

[wej20]

Interestingly Winnipeg have been SH 251 times, us only 209. Amazingly Carolina have only been SH 135 times! Also amazingly we're in the bottom half for PP opportunities.

 

[ColePens]

I always hate when people say luck or the refs are after the Pens. The Pens are creating their own bad luck by not moving their feet. Sure.. it's not helping that they are the Pens, but they are doing the majority to themselves.

In addition, it's not odd that the last 2 games we got on the PP. We were moving our feet and attacking. It tends to happen.

Ultimately I think powerplays are generated more than handed out. Pens were not generating the obvious because they weren't moving. They weren't attacking. They weren't going hard enough. People around here think otherwise.

 

[wej20]

I still thought we'd be in the top half even with our ups and downs.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Penalties in hockey, more than any other sport, however are called differently depending on many factors. Time of the game, playoffs or not, the score, the player involved.

The refs do not call the same penalty the same way depending on many factors. Including the team and something going on under the surface at times.

All you said is true Cole, the Pens deserve some legitimate criticism for their play. And they have gotten it here in spades from everyone. That said, there certainly has been something going on for months given how often obvious penalties have been ignored game in game out, no matter the score or any of the other above situations I set forth above. Bad calls happen, missed calls happen, but not what has been going on.

As for your point about the Pens playing badly, I did get into that to a degree. Yes, some horrendous decision making. Crosby has been baffling this year with some of his passing. And lack of effort. But as I said in my post, do not discount the injuries. Not have there been players on the team who should be in WBS, so making understandable errors, but players remaining need to cover for them or try to do too much or both. That would definately effect the penalties you take.

 

[ColePens]

Well hey - you are preaching to the choir about everything else. I agree completely.

Truthfully I think the #1 issue I have with the NHL in general is the post-whistle scrums. It's getting ridiculous. Before you would push and shove and stay within the limits. Now you got people punching. What are we waiting for? Are we waiting for a post-whistle scrum and someone get paralyzed to finally end it?

The refs the other night in St Louis did AMAZING. Backes (I believe) went out of control. He was frustrated and lost it a bit. The Penguin approached him as well, I cannot remember exact players. Both guys were given penalties and 10 minutes on top of it.

Guess what didn't happen. Post-whistle scrums. The refs kiboshed that **** immediately. And hey.. it's going to be met with some game-changing penalties. I simply do not care. Post-whistle minor shoves and ****-talking can stay. That's awesome. You can clear your net, too. But no more cross-checks to the back of the head, the kidneys, or rabbit punches to the face. Enough is enough. End it before the game loses a player due to it.

But wow... I digress. I really went off track there. Apologies.

 

[wgknestrick]

I always hate when people say luck or the refs are after the Pens. The Pens are creating their own bad luck by not moving their feet. Sure.. it's not helping that they are the Pens, but they are doing the majority to themselves.

In addition, it's not odd that the last 2 games we got on the PP. We were moving our feet and attacking. It tends to happen.

Ultimately I think powerplays are generated more than handed out. Pens were not generating the obvious because they weren't moving. They weren't attacking. They weren't going hard enough. People around here think otherwise.

I don't think anyone can say the reffing has been consistent, fair, and/or "by the book" this year.

The most penalized team this year (WPG) would be the least penalized team in 2005. The standard for what is a penalty has shifted significantly to a felony from a misdemeanor.

The pens do not have a core roster that can deal with a NHL that does not call 50% of the "real" (by-the-book) penalties that occur on the ice. Pens get frustrated when calls aren't made and try to get away with their own. Letang and Malkin are probably the 2 biggest offenders to this IMO.

So put a heavy dose of Downie, Bortuzzo, Comeau, and Depres out on the ice, and you get what we got. These are the main players putting us shorthanded.

Farnham is freaking off the charts with respect to drawing penalties.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat..._s&f2=5v5&f5=PIT&c=0+1+3+5+41+42+43+44+45+46#

 

[wgknestrick]

Well hey - you are preaching to the choir about everything else. I agree completely.

Truthfully I think the #1 issue I have with the NHL in general is the post-whistle scrums. It's getting ridiculous. Before you would push and shove and stay within the limits. Now you got people punching. What are we waiting for? Are we waiting for a post-whistle scrum and someone get paralyzed to finally end it?

The refs the other night in St Louis did AMAZING. Backes (I believe) went out of control. He was frustrated and lost it a bit. The Penguin approached him as well, I cannot remember exact players. Both guys were given penalties and 10 minutes on top of it.

Guess what didn't happen. Post-whistle scrums. The refs kiboshed that **** immediately. And hey.. it's going to be met with some game-changing penalties. I simply do not care. Post-whistle minor shoves and ****-talking can stay. That's awesome. You can clear your net, too. But no more cross-checks to the back of the head, the kidneys, or rabbit punches to the face. Enough is enough. End it before the game loses a player due to it.

But wow... I digress. I really went off track there. Apologies.

Not off track at all. I actually want to see ANY post whistle contact penalized. You push someone, you sit. That's how you stop the nonsense. When you allow "pushes" you start giving the refs too much discretion. Why does a player get a free push? Do you also (or only) penalize the retaliatory push back? Where is the line between a face wash and a punch? I don't want these striped morons using their pea brains for anything involving a decision.

The only call they get the most % right, 100% of the time is delay of game. Why? There is no room for judgement on their part. I think they only call about 20% of the cross checks and interference in the game now.

I don't know how Dubinski didn't get an extra penalty before the Crosby fight, etc.

 

[ColePens]

People will claim it makes the game weak, but man it's a different world. Guys used to beat eachother up but then have respect for limits. Today's world has no limits. I cannot believe we have *******s in the league punching after the whistle. Seriously. What the heck? Drop the gloves and stop being a little brat. That goes for all players, including every Penguin.

I agree. Penalize everything. Send a message that it stops. The people buy the product because what happens inbetween whistles. You can be tough in the whistles or drop the gloves to settle the score. Post-whistle stuff needs to end.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I wish that like in football everything is called, no matter the score, no matter who, no matter the time of the game, no matter playoffs or regular season.

But one difference between the NFL and NHL. If an NFL player takes a swing at someone they may be gone not five minutes but for a better part of the year.

There has to be some middle ground. The refs use 'fluid' calling of the game to control tempers and such in theory. In reality though their calls usually are merely are baffling, inconsistent, and most do not control the game but add fuel to the fire.

I guess what I am saying is that if they can not get their act together and use their creative calling of the games to control the game, eliminate fighting and call everything.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

When you play lazy, disinterested hockey for months on end... you find yourself in the box more, generally.

Nothing surprising about it.

 

[IcedCapp]

I don't buy the problem being the Pens not moving their feet. I do think it's SOMETIMES an issue, but I watched two players last night, Bennett and Despres, get blatantly tripped while moving their feet. This occurred like 60 seconds apart, Bennett's in the offensive zone, Despres' in the defensive zone. NEITHER GOT CALLED. There is no consistency, no rhyme, no reason.

 

[ColePens]

I wish that like in football everything is called, no matter the score, no matter who, no matter the time of the game, no matter playoffs or regular season.

But one difference between the NFL and NHL. If an NFL player takes a swing at someone they may be gone not five minutes but for a better part of the year.

There has to be some middle ground. The refs use 'fluid' calling of the game to control tempers and such in theory. In reality though their calls usually are merely are baffling, inconsistent, and most do not control the game but add fuel to the fire.

I guess what I am saying is that if they can not get their act together and use their creative calling of the games to control the game, eliminate fighting and call everything.

I'd be cool if the first scrum ended w/ both bencehs warned. That sets the tone. Next scrum - 10 minute penalties or being kicked out. That's the only wya a guy can stand there and not punch back.

Back in the old day you could take a punch and not hit back because it would stop. Now these *******s just keep punching until you punch back. It's a joke.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I'd be cool if the first scrum ended w/ both bencehs warned. That sets the tone. Next scrum - 10 minute penalties or being kicked out. That's the only wya a guy can stand there and not punch back.

Back in the old day you could take a punch and not hit back because it would stop. Now these *******s just keep punching until you punch back. It's a joke.

It's not just the scrums though. The Caps game got out of hand because the refs just let the call go on Ovechkin. Then they refused to take hold of the game when the retributions started coming.

Again, missed calls happen. But with the recent history of the Pens you can not blame them for feeling the need to extract their own pound of flesh. The Pens have outright SAID in locker room quotes which have made the papers that the refs are singling them out as a team. Do you forget the quotes from a month or so ago?

I mean come on, the regular season is meaningless to them. The Flyers and Florida are not catching them even if they dress in tutus and reenact Disney's Frozen for the remaining games of the year.

That is why the refs either need to use that 'discretion' to genuinely get a handle on games, ie not suck at their jobs. Or take fighting out of the game and just call everything. To be honest I would be fine with fighting leaving the game. It always amused me that people think that removing fighting among a bunch of mostly Canadians, whose reputation as polite is so prevelant so as to become farce, would make it a game, when the NFL and NBA have no fighting and yet are considered to be tough sports.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Oh and here is the quote regarding that whether the refs actually have an anti-Pen agenda or not, the Pens TO A MAN believe it:

The NHL’s referees, in general, hate the Penguins.

I don’t think that, you might not think that, and there might not be a shred of truth behind the statement. But perception is reality. And that perception, be very sure, is the one held inside Consol Energy Center’s home locker room.

What’s more, the perception is held in large part because Steve Downie, whom the refs really hate, plays in Pittsburgh.

I won’t name names here, but suffice it to say that this perception is pretty much universally held.

http://dkonpittsburghsports.com/2015/01/16/friday-insider-refs-really-hate-penguins/

 

[pistolpete11]

It's not just the scrums though. The Caps game got out of hand because the refs just let the call go on Ovechkin. Then they refused to take hold of the game when the retributions started coming.

Again, missed calls happen. But with the recent history of the Pens you can not blame them for feeling the need to extract their own pound of flesh. The Pens have outright SAID in locker room quotes which have made the papers that the refs are singling them out as a team. Do you forget the quotes from a month or so ago?

I mean come on, the regular season is meaningless to them. The Flyers and Florida are not catching them even if they dress in tutus and reenact Disney's Frozen for the remaining games of the year.

That is why the refs either need to use that 'discretion' to genuinely get a handle on games, ie not suck at their jobs. Or take fighting out of the game and just call everything. To be honest I would be fine with fighting leaving the game. It always amused me that people think that removing fighting among a bunch of mostly Canadians, whose reputation as polite is so prevelant so as to become farce, would make it a game, when the NFL and NBA have no fighting and yet are considered to be tough sports.

Who considers the NBA tough?

 

[drpepper]

Interestingly the Pens lead the league in 10 min misconducts - Downie (7), Borts (1), Sill (1), Adams (2), Crosby (1), Malkin (1), and one other which I thought was either Malkin again or Letang or Kunitz. Most of which are for abusing the ref. Also it looks like Backes and Crosby are the only two captains with misconducts, and Backes are both for illegal hits, while Crosby's is for running his mouth at the refs.

Also in terms of penalty differential, Crosby is one of the lowest in the top 20 scorers over the past two years (5v5 pts/60). Only James Neal, Vanek, and Bergeron have lower and negative differentials. Crosby spends a lot of time with the puck, a lot of time scoring, and a lot time moving his feet, but he doesn't draw that many calls and takes around as many as he draws.

 

[Penguinator]

Remember that game against the canadiens when Downie got screwed by Markov who pushed him on Price resulting in goalie interference for Downie?

Prior to that **** call Gallagher pushed Fleury but got away with it.

I used to also be a Habs fan before that joke of a game...

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Interestingly the Pens lead the league in 10 min misconducts - Downie (7), Borts (1), Sill (1), Adams (2), Crosby (1), Malkin (1), and one other which I thought was either Malkin again or Letang or Kunitz. Most of which are for abusing the ref.

Also in terms of penalty differential, Crosby is one of the lowest in the top 20 scorers over the past two years (5v5 pts/60). Only James Neal, Vanek, and Bergeron have lower and negative differentials. Crosby spends a lot of time with the puck, a lot of time scoring, and a lot time moving his feet, but he doesn't draw that many calls and takes around as many as he draws.

Crosby is pretty much exhibit A of the ref's bias against the Pens. He draws next to nothing and yet is 180 degrees from what Cole described as reasons for the lack of calls. Even when he is playing his worst.

Cole's points are very valid. No one needs to tell anyone here that the Pens have genuine issues with their play for some time now.

But it can at the same time be true that the refs have a bias and agenda. The entire Pens team believes it.

 

[canadianguy77]

It seems as though we've been on the short end of the stick in regards to calls since that game against the Rangers a few months back when sid was chirping the refs.

I don't have any data to back that claim up, but that's when it almost became blatant imo.

 

[Til the End of Time]

its pretty crazy thinking back to crosbys first 2-3 years in the league. he was a freak at drawing penalties. i definitely remember him leading the league in penalties drawn for a few years. do they keep track of that stat now? every game it was like 2-3 penalties that he drew, it seemed. he was so dynamic and quick, flying all over the ice, you just had to hold/trip/obstruct him.

now he rarely gets calls. partially him i but also definitely the reffing, i must admit.

does anyone else remember all the calls he would draw? it was really amazing.

 

[bingobangobongo]

14 pms a game hide the women and children. Get rid of all the players who get mad and swear.

The year of the first Cup the fewest in the league was 17.8. The Penguins were the second fewest at 20.5.

If someone created a hockey channel only of day by day seasons past I would watch that over the current - pristine sterile generic crap.