Post-Game Talk: The Maple Andersens beat the Flames. 2-1 (SO)

[Not My Tempo]

So when we played Edmonton and Russell scored into his own net, that means he is a really bad player, crap happens even to other teams and players.

There are a lot of what was once called "Armchair Quarterbacks" and in our case "Armchair Coaches" that think they could do better, that now is ridiculous.

How did you get that from what I said? Very few people would call Russell a bad player after a random incident like that. The difference is the Leafs play as of late isn't a random incident. It's been happening for a couple games now.

As for the "armchair coaching" thing, that's such a lazy argument. I'v never directed a movie in my life, so if I criticize a film director am i an "armchair director"? You don't need to know how to coach to see, analyze, and criticize a team.

 

[TMLeafs18]

Matthews is only 19/20 but he's already one of the best centres in the NHL. He needs to be playing with talent above a third line level.

What some people seem to forget is that this is his second season and he's only 19/20 years old. Maybe he is playing on the 3rd line in a developmental role?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Well the lines aren't what some of us would like them to be so that means our coach sucks

Yeah I'm sure there are some other reasons as well but whatever, my question was purely rhetorical and truth is, I don't care what people are freaking out about. I'm not happy myself with how we play at times but then I take a deep breath, remind myself that the overall picture is just beautiful and that the future looks so bright my eyes hurt.

 

[Budsfan]

people are freaking out because Babcock won't make the line changes that they want, because they think it will work out to be better. (which - for the record - maybe they will). they are also freaking out that our VERY YOUNG team is actually playing like i dunno they are very young. (and some players are playing NOT very smart). and instead of just taking a step back and actually contemplating the following;

1: Babcock is coaching for development. not just to "win" (as I keep seeing people go if Babcock just coached to the teams strengths we'd be unstoppable) - to which I ask again if people honestly legitimately think Babcock looks at his whiteboard, sees everything as his disposal, and is thinking "you know i truly believe this is the way to victory."*


2: the team truly isn't "finished" yet. Trapper keeps bringing this up but people what to kvetch about the"slow" starts. I don't necessarily think they are "Slow" - i think (as @Trapper thinks is that the other team is more capable for the first few minutes (up until 1/2 the period) to set their will on us because they are bigger. THIS is the part of the season where the first "hammer" comes down in systems being more in sync to what the coaches want. Last year we didn't look "polished" until January until we started humming. This year, we're going through the same issues (literally the same issues), but we're actually a LOT better. we still need help but it's not as simple as "Durr Babcock can't get the team to start on time." right now we're waitin' for Lou to bust a move.

3: this team. is young. (and I think Matthews is fighting the crud/injury -he's not been himself for weeks), Marner/Nylander are producing the same 'rate' but just not re: goals etc. but it's like everything has to be video-game perfect.


we are "not" montreal. this is NOT carlyle/wilson leafs.
people just want to borrow trouble. and this isn't a "well we're 2nd in our division wherever in the League" post, this is a: out of every team (Buffalo, Colorado, etc) team that were sucky around the same time we are, we're the only team in an excellent position despite our youth and inexperience and flaws. and if people honestly think that Andersen is the only reason for this then quite frankly, people need to take a real step back and figure some things out.

Again Daisy "The Voice of Reason"

 

[Mugzy97]

Matthews is only 19/20 but he's already one of the best centres in the NHL. He needs to be playing with talent above a third line level.

But that's where opinions may vary. He doesn't NEED to be in Babcock's opinion, maybe he is trying to teach him some lessons to better him for the future.

 

[Daisy Jane]

How did you get that from what I said? Very few people would call Russell a bad player after a random incident like that. The difference is the Leafs play as of late isn't a random incident. It's been happening for a couple games now.

As for the "armchair coaching" thing, that's such a lazy argument. I'v never directed a movie in my life, so if I criticize a film director am i an "armchair director"? You don't need to know how to coach to see, analyze, and criticize a team.

no you don't.
but it would be nice if perspective, and context were applied to said analysis and criticism. which isn't always the case here.

 

[TMLeafs18]

No doubt Babcock has his reasons. I'm just saying watching elite talent play with bottom six players makes my eyes want to bleed.

In games where we are having trouble scoring such as last night he's gotta make adjustment to get his top players going. Hyman and Brown together isn't going to help Matthews be offensively dangerous.

But that's where opinions may vary. He doesn't NEED to be in Babcock's opinion, maybe he is trying to teach him some lessons to better him for the future.

 

[Not My Tempo]

no you don't.
but it would be nice if perspective, and context were applied to said analysis and criticism. which isn't always the case here.

Oh I 100% agree, some people come off as huge babies that throw a tantrum, and it goes both ways here to be honest. For every "Hyman sucks and generates nothing offensively and Babcock is an idiot for playing him" post, there's a "Hyman gets Matthews the puck, you don't understand because you've never played hockey" post.

 

[Budsfan]

How did you get that from what I said? Very few people would call Russell a bad player after a random incident like that. The difference is the Leafs play as of late isn't a random incident. It's been happening for a couple games now.

As for the "armchair coaching" thing, that's such a lazy argument. I'v never directed a movie in my life, so if I criticize a film director am i an "armchair director"? You don't need to know how to coach to see, analyze, and criticize a team.

At least you would be better informed and have a better perspective of what is happening and as far as criticizing a Director, the easy lazy way around it, is just not go to see any of his work?

 

[ULF_55]

Other than the win, everyone should have some concerns about how the team played last night.

Unless you think that type of performance is the recipe for long term success.

 

[Nithoniniel]

It wasn't as ugly a game as it looked on the shot count. Flames had almost half their shots from the blue, many of them without much traffic. That's not an issue for us. What created the disparity on the shot clock was that our defensive tactic is to allow them the point, and clear view. That leads to a lot of unblocked shots, but ones that are not that dangerous. Flames defensive tactic was to cram the middle of the ice, which leads to a lot of blocked shots. Shot attempts were actually quite even, the problem was that we never got into any good areas for our first shots, and we got no second chances.

And I just have to say it, despite mostly being on the other side of the discussion. Babcocks decisions this game absolutely baffled me. Nylander stuck for most of the game on the fourth line despite being our by far best skater. Brown getting every chance with Matthews despite not doing anything right. Moving Nylander up to Matthews and then replacing him with Brown again after Flames got a counter-rush after we had one. That happens, and has nothing to do with Nylander. Marner having a liability game, yet gets thrown out there all the time and in the OT. Nylander being our best OT player and our best player of the night, yet gets almost completely benched in OT. Hyman out there instead, though to his credit he did very well. Komarov finally getting sent to the fourth, Nylander replacing him and immediately that line has their two best shifts, setting up a near-goal, at which point Komarov went back again. Stuck with matchups that seemed to favor Calgary almost religiously. I just don't see the logic here, not from a game management, tactical, or teaching perspective. If I'm Nylander, I wonder what the heck the coach want from me.

Great
Nylander (3.28) - An absolute beast. For most of the game, we only ever seemed to threaten the net with Nylander on the ice. For his troubles he got benched and saw almost no OT time, where he usually shines.
Gardiner (2.79) - Played almost 27 minutes and put on a clinic of outlet passing along with strong defense. Two good games in a row. Let's hope for 50 more.
Andersen (3.4) - Another clinic of goaltending. Smith was terrific tonight, but Andersen was miles better.

Good
Kadri (3.14) - Kadri had a strong game in my opinion, going up against a very tough line and holding his own, while also (individually) pushing some offense.
Zaitsev (2.76) - His pairing was very strong all night. Had some ugly outlet attempts, but otherwise great game.
Rielly (3.45) - Rielly has so much confidence in his puck carrying right now, and it's a huge boon for our team.

Average
Matthews (4.04) - Rather quiet, but had some very nice setups on the PP and held the Monahan line in check.
Hyman (2.9) - Looked good on the OT. What a surprising sentence to write. Played a strong defensive game.
Marleau (3.14) - Just fine at even strength, didn't like him on the PP.
Bozak (2.57) - Rather edgeless offensively, had some nice intentions but couldn't quite get there. Actually pretty solid defensively tonight.
JVR (2.82) - See Bozak.
Hainsey (3.07) - Hainsey looked sluggish tonight. Got walked a bit too easy, and had trouble moving the puck.
Borgman (2.52) - Very noticeable for some good things, but this pairing really couldn't get the puck out of our zone. It was constant pressure with them on.

Bad
Brown (2.93) - Well, he was pretty good defensively at even strength. Didn't quite like him on the PK tonight. And he did nothing right offensively, with or without the puck.
Komarov (2.34) - He tried to stickhandle through traffic. In the defensive zone. On the PK.
Marner (3.07) - Started very well and then fell off completely. Careless with the puck. Had a few really, really ugly turnovers.
Moore (2.45) - Good on the PK, useless at even strength tonight.
Martin (2.44) - Mostly harmless.
Polak (1.9) - Mostly harmful to absolutely everything. His issue tonight wasn't that he did bad things. He just didn't do anything good, and the result was that he was struggling to keep alive.

Awful
-

 

[Mugzy97]

No doubt Babcock has his reasons. I'm just saying watching elite talent play with bottom six players makes my eyes want to bleed.

In games where we are having trouble scoring such as last night he's gotta make adjustment to get his top players going. Hyman and Brown together isn't going to help Matthews be offensively dangerous.

Maybe not helping offensively, but preventing goals is just as important as scoring them, especially in a tie game.

 

[Mugzy97]

Also it's absolutely amazing to me that there was no call on Gaudreau when Marner was breaking away in OT. Unbelievable really.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Oh I 100% agree, some people come off as huge babies that throw a tantrum, and it goes both ways here to be honest. For every "Hyman sucks and generates nothing offensively and Babcock is an idiot for playing him" post, there's a "Hyman gets Matthews the puck, you don't understand because you've never played hockey" post.

i hear you. the circular arguments (on both ends) makes my eyes bleed more than seeing Hyman playing with Matthews. like I personally do not see a problem with Hyman with Matthews. I truly do not - I don't have a problem with Brown with Matthews. I don't understand why Matthews, Hyman and Brown are together for the majority of the game, but I do think there is a teaching moment in there (what, i don't know), and it might be a "ugh" for Matthews, but it benefits Marner, Nylander whomever in the long run. i mean it could be babcock is a complete ego maniac and wants to do it this way, but i think that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I also have to wonder if people think babcock (or Hiller or Smith) doesn't talk to these guys constantly, explaining the method to the madness right now?

so the criticism and the discussion would be so much more well-received if people would acknowledge these points, while citing their frustration for not seeing their dream line combination.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Also it's absolutely amazing to me that there was no call on Gaudreau when Marner was breaking away in OT. Unbelievable really.

that imo should have been a penalty shot. that was insanely nuts.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Maybe not helping offensively, but preventing goals is just as important as scoring them, especially in a tie game.

Actually preventing goals ranks under scoring goals, especially in a tie game. You can prevent goals as long as you want but you need the puck to hit th back of the net to win the game.

 

[White Shadow]

From where I sit, it's nowhere near that bad. We played very well against Vancouver, and Calgary last week, and the WSH game was pretty good too. This game wasn't pretty but it's just one game and it wasn't even as bad as some people are making it out to be.



Where do these numbers come from? I don't think we played as bad as most people seem to think but I also don't think we played nearly as well as these numbers would suggest.



You need to calm down. We are not getting "vastly outplayed" every night, if we were I'd be the first one to say so.



Generally speaking, I would agree. That said, maybe it was a way of sending a message, who knows? As Daisy said, Babcock is trying to do more than win games, he's also trying to develop players so yeah, sending a message to them every now and then might be a good idea. You want to be on the ice in 3 on 3 OT - show me how bad you want it!



I was thinking the same thing watching last night. We didn't look good, but Calgary looked very good and sometimes, you have to give the other team some credit. There are two teams out there and the result doesn't just depend on the performance of one of them. Not a great game for us by any stretch of the imagination but yeah, it wasn't that bad either.

Naturalstattrick. That was 5 on 5 scoring chances.

All situations scoring chances Tor 44 Cal 33 with an even number of HDSC

 

[Not My Tempo]

At least you would be better informed and have a better perspective of what is happening and as far as criticizing a Director, the easy lazy way around it, is just not go to see any of his work?

Sure it gives you more perspective and credibility, and that stuff is important when forming an argument, but to shut down criticism because you believe someone is an "armchair coach" halts discussion, at which point this becomes less a Leafs forum and more a Leafs cheerleader club.

And yea that would be the easy lazy way to go about doing things. But what if I actually really enjoy the directors other works and I believe there is a lot of potential there? If someone is willing to go in depth and offer criticism, then obviously the have an emotion interest in whatever they are criticizing.

We are going off topic to be honest, my main point against you was that your take that people are negative because of prejudices is unfounded

 

[Gary Nylund]

It wasn't as ugly a game as it looked on the shot count. Flames had almost half their shots from the blue, many of them without much traffic. That's not an issue for us. What created the disparity on the shot clock was that our defensive tactic is to allow them the point, and clear view. That leads to a lot of unblocked shots, but ones that are not that dangerous. Flames defensive tactic was to cram the middle of the ice, which leads to a lot of blocked shots. Shot attempts were actually quite even, the problem was that we never got into any good areas for our first shots, and we got no second chances.

And I just have to say it, despite mostly being on the other side of the discussion. Babcocks decisions this game absolutely baffled me. Nylander stuck for most of the game on the fourth line despite being our by far best skater. Brown getting every chance with Matthews despite not doing anything right. Moving Nylander up to Matthews and then replacing him with Brown again after Flames got a counter-rush after we had one. That happens, and has nothing to do with Nylander. Marner having a liability game, yet gets thrown out there all the time and in the OT. Nylander being our best OT player and our best player of the night, yet gets almost completely benched in OT. Hyman out there instead, though to his credit he did very well. Komarov finally getting sent to the fourth, Nylander replacing him and immediately that line has their two best shifts, setting up a near-goal, at which point Komarov went back again. Stuck with matchups that seemed to favor Calgary almost religiously. I just don't see the logic here, not from a game management, tactical, or teaching perspective. If I'm Nylander, I wonder what the heck the coach want from me.

Great
Nylander (3.28) - An absolute beast. For most of the game, we only ever seemed to threaten the net with Nylander on the ice. For his troubles he got benched and saw almost no OT time, where he usually shines.
Gardiner (2.79) - Played almost 27 minutes and put on a clinic of outlet passing along with strong defense. Two good games in a row. Let's hope for 50 more.
Andersen (3.4) - Another clinic of goaltending. Smith was terrific tonight, but Andersen was miles better.

Good
Kadri (3.14) - Kadri had a strong game in my opinion, going up against a very tough line and holding his own, while also (individually) pushing some offense.
Zaitsev (2.76) - His pairing was very strong all night. Had some ugly outlet attempts, but otherwise great game.
Rielly (3.45) - Rielly has so much confidence in his puck carrying right now, and it's a huge boon for our team.

Average
Matthews (4.04) - Rather quiet, but had some very nice setups on the PP and held the Monahan line in check.
Hyman (2.9) - Looked good on the OT. What a surprising sentence to write. Played a strong defensive game.
Marleau (3.14) - Just fine at even strength, didn't like him on the PP.
Bozak (2.57) - Rather edgeless offensively, had some nice intentions but couldn't quite get there. Actually pretty solid defensively tonight.
JVR (2.82) - See Bozak.
Hainsey (3.07) - Hainsey looked sluggish tonight. Got walked a bit too easy, and had trouble moving the puck.
Borgman (2.52) - Very noticeable for some good things, but this pairing really couldn't get the puck out of our zone. It was constant pressure with them on.

Bad
Brown (2.93) - Well, he was pretty good defensively at even strength. Didn't quite like him on the PK tonight. And he did nothing right offensively, with or without the puck.
Komarov (2.34) - He tried to stickhandle through traffic. In the defensive zone. On the PK.
Marner (3.07) - Started very well and then fell off completely. Careless with the puck. Had a few really, really ugly turnovers.
Moore (2.45) - Good on the PK, useless at even strength tonight.
Martin (2.44) - Mostly harmless.
Polak (1.9) - Mostly harmful to absolutely everything. His issue tonight wasn't that he did bad things. He just didn't do anything good, and the result was that he was struggling to keep alive.

Awful
-

"Hyman (2.9) - Looked good on the OT. What a surprising sentence to write."

Um, yeah.

 

[Mugzy97]

Actually preventing goals ranks under scoring goals, especially in a tie game. You can prevent goals as long as you want but you need the puck to hit th back of the net to win the game.

False, it happened last night. After we tied the game at 1-1 we never made the puck hit the back of the net during gameplay, but they didn't either. So it was just as important.

 

[Budsfan]

Other than the win, everyone should have some concerns about how the team played last night.

Unless you think that type of performance is the recipe for long term success.

Of course not ULF but the team has to learn team defence, we have a lot of young players that are great goal scorers, people here think Babcock is punishing players by playing them on different lines but he is trying to make them complete players and still win games, this is a long term comittment for these players they are going to be with us hopefully a very long time and learning to play the game properly, is as some would put it good asset management.

 

[BayStreetBully]

I agree with Daisy and Budsfan about teaching moments. Take a long term view that even if you think Babcock's lines are taking a step back, we hope that in the long run, these teaching moments will better prepare them for battle.

 

[EXPECT THE LEAFS]

Morgan Rielly... I kinda doubted his offensive prowess, boy has he proven me wrong so far... what a beast.

 

[Muston Atthews]

So... why was Nylander benched then?

 

[Daisy Jane]

I agree with Daisy and Budsfan about teaching moments. Take a long term view that even if you think Babcock's lines are taking a step back, we hope that in the long run, these teaching moments will better prepare them for battle.

the thing is - and i've said this for awhile now -if Babcock only had a 3 year-4 year contract, I think he'd be coaching a lot more differently than he of the eight year contract. that's why I think when he's given more pieces (to actually push us towards the cup-final/win - though i think the Leafs are capable of being a bit surprising this year for experience purposes), then you be harsh and judge Babcock on decisions.

Right now, we're watching the prepwork and screaming why it doesn't look like a masterpiece yet.