The intangibles

[ottomaddox]

I hope they do.

Skate every team into the ground and beat them down with skill. When they get frustrated and start trying to play dirty, keep skating them into the ground.

Let other teams worry about their own lack of discipline - They're going to have to, if our Powerplay has any say in the matter.

I am convinced that you are enough of a leafs fan that you watched the playoff series vs. BOS. I don't think you're being honest enough with yourself. Ours was the team with the most skill and it just so happens that we were the team with the least discipline. You can enjoy the regular season all you like (skill, penalties, suspensions,etc.), but the whistles get put away every year.

 

[Goonface2k14]

I need proof on everything and let Dubas tweek as may be desired at the trade deadline.
Team defense knocks Andersen's workload down along with solid improved possession numbers.
Bozak, Jvr, polak were poor possession players and Leo was spinning his wheels in decline also.
Fresh young legs cause teams fits and we get to kill teams on the powerplay.
Tavares kills penalties and our special teams improve.
Not concerned with the defense if forwards take care of their team responsibilities first.

For sure they’re on the upswing from last season, and JT should help improve things in several ways. That’s why I had him at the top of my list.

Excited about the fresh young legs as well.

Our group of 6 defensemen is still a big concern for me, especially Jake at times, as the game needs a solid 5 man unit to perform optimally. Doesn’t matter how good the forwards are defensively, if one or two of the five are not doing their part, everyone suffers.

 

[Goonface2k14]

He did. I was just mentioning that he scored 32 the previous year. So slump or not this past year, he'll likely be ok.

Ah crap, my bad, I misunderstood your reply.

Yes, he has done it before. I remember he had his breakout season when he had Lupul on his wing, when Lupul was playing like our best player.

I feel like Kadri needs to play with a linemate who can drive the play, while he very smartly goes to the dirty areas and receives passes to bury the puck into the net. Otherwise he tries to do too much, and gets stripped of the puck or forces a bad shot/pass.

I have faith Johnsson and Kappy can drive the play somewhat with their speed, but need to see it in action with Kadri first (if that’s how Babcock lines them up).

 

[IBeL34f]

I am convinced that you are enough of a leafs fan that you watched the playoff series vs. BOS. I don't think you're being honest enough with yourself. Ours was the team with the most skill and it just so happens that we were the team with the least discipline. You can enjoy the regular season all you like (skill, penalties, suspensions,etc.), but the whistles get out away every year.

We didn't lose to Boston because we were out-hit or intimidated, we lost to Boston because they were a better, more experienced team than we were.

If we meet the Bruins in the Playoffs again this year, and both teams are healthy, I'll be expecting a different outcome this time around.

The last thing I want the Leafs trying to do is play someone else's game that doesn't suit them. We have offensive skill unmatched by any other team in the League right now, and we should be using that to dictate the flow of the game every single night, not worrying about how to handle other teams that want to try to goon it up.

 

[ottomaddox]

We didn't lose to Boston because we were out-hit or intimidated, we lost to Boston because they were a better, more experienced team than we were.

If we meet the Bruins in the Playoffs again this year, and both teams are healthy, I'll be expecting a different outcome this time around.

The last thing I want the Leafs trying to do is play someone else's game that doesn't suit them. We have offensive skill unmatched by any other team in the League right now, and we should be using that to dictate the flow of the game every single night, not worrying about how to handle other teams that want to try to goon it up.

It appeared we weren't healthy. Partly because Nylander was no where to be found and Kadri was gone with a case of undisciplinedsuspentionitis.

You know what a goon is right? I don't believe a single person on this whole TOR board is begging for a 7 min. a night staged fighting guy.

 

[IBeL34f]

It appeared we weren't healthy. Partly because Nylander was no where to be found and Kadri was gone with a case of undisciplinedsuspentionitis.

You know what a goon is right? I don't believe a single person on this whole TOR board is begging for a 7 min. a night staged fighting guy.

The "healthy" comment in my previous post was simply to qualify for the huge lack of context involved in any such statement, as I am, unfortunately, unable to tell the future with any real certainty.

Regarding goons, I think maybe you misinterpreted my post. I never said anything about the Leafs having goons, or about Leafs fans wanting goons - What I said is that the Leafs shouldn't be changing their style of play (mid-game) to suit the needs of another team that would rather goon it up than try to play our brand of hockey.

 

[tokiih]

I believe the notion of Leafs being too soft is quite overblown. Even if teams are "allowed" to take liberties with Andersen and our star players I think there's a lot more value in the current roster learning to stand up for eachother rather that recruiting some kind of police.

I also agree that we should play to our strengths (which is quite significant right now) rather than adapting to some kind of norm or letting the other team dictate the play.

 

[Goonface2k14]

I believe the notion of Leafs being too soft is quite overblown. Even if teams are "allowed" to take liberties with Andersen and our star players I think there's a lot more value in the current roster learning to stand up for eachother rather that recruiting some kind of police.

I also agree that we should play to our strengths (which is quite significant right now) rather than adapting to some kind of norm or letting the other team dictate the play.

Sounds sensible, until the playoffs arrive and players ramp up their physical play. If an opponent knows they'll gain an edge with hard hits (in general, not just liberties with the goalie or stars) and position battles (that the refs will allow more of in the post season), they're going to do it. The Leafs should be able to skate faster and have more skill than most teams, but they'll be smoked along the boards on every down low forecheck and out battled in front of the net on both ends of the rink. I think that's what partly made Nylander and Matthews so ineffective during the last post season.

If the Leafs can bring in some guys with a bit more jam, then suddenly it's eye for an eye with hits and net-front battles, and that should open the ice up a bit more for the pure skill guys.

 

[IBeL34f]

I believe the notion of Leafs being too soft is quite overblown. Even if teams are "allowed" to take liberties with Andersen and our star players I think there's a lot more value in the current roster learning to stand up for eachother rather that recruiting some kind of police.

I also agree that we should play to our strengths (which is quite significant right now) rather than adapting to some kind of norm or letting the other team dictate the play.

Sounds sensible. Full stop.

 

[tokiih]

Sounds sensible, until the playoffs arrive and players ramp up their physical play. If an opponent knows they'll gain an edge with hard hits (in general, not just liberties with the goalie or stars) and position battles (that the refs will allow more of in the post season), they're going to do it. The Leafs should be able to skate faster and have more skill than most teams, but they'll be smoked along the boards on every down low forecheck and out battled in front of the net on both ends of the rink. I think that's what partly made Nylander and Matthews so ineffective during the last post season.

If the Leafs can bring in some guys with a bit more jam, then suddenly it's eye for an eye with hits and net-front battles, and that should open the ice up a bit more for the pure skill guys.

If our players (stars and whatnot) can't handle playoff hockey on their own then I think there's another issue... Don't get me wrong, I get your point and I agree with it to some degree. I just believe we have players capable of that already and others that can elevate that kind of play as they mature both mentally and physically.

 

[IBeL34f]

Sounds sensible, until the playoffs arrive and players ramp up their physical play. If an opponent knows they'll gain an edge with hard hits (in general, not just liberties with the goalie or stars) and position battles (that the refs will allow more of in the post season), they're going to do it. The Leafs should be able to skate faster and have more skill than most teams, but they'll be smoked along the boards on every down low forecheck and out battled in front of the net on both ends of the rink. I think that's what partly made Nylander and Matthews so ineffective during the last post season.

If the Leafs can bring in some guys with a bit more jam, then suddenly it's eye for an eye with hits and net-front battles, and that should open the ice up a bit more for the pure skill guys.

I don't think the physical play hurt the Leafs at all in that Boston series (with the exception of the Kadri incident). And Boston was quickly dispatched by another speedy, skill-driven team in Tampa in round 2.

We were beaten by a better, more experienced team, that's it. As we continue to get better and more experienced, the outcome will likely change in a rematch.

 

[Goonface2k14]

Sounds sensible. Full stop.

Perhaps I should've said that if it takes away from our strengths, then maybe it's not a good move to add toughness just for the sake of toughness.

If it compliments our strengths, then it makes us better. Especially on the back end. Way too many soft guys who can be overwhelmed by physical play.

 

[ottomaddox]

The "healthy" comment in my previous post was simply to qualify for the huge lack of context involved in any such statement, as I am, unfortunately, unable to tell the future with any real certainty.

Regarding goons, I think maybe you misinterpreted my post. I never said anything about the Leafs having goons, or about Leafs fans wanting goons - What I said is that the Leafs shouldn't be changing their style of play (mid-game) to suit the needs of another team that would rather goon it up than try to play our brand of hockey.

"Goon" has no other type of interpretation. Not even while backtracking or creating a fictional narrative to support your argument.

 

[Buds17]

I feel like Kappy and AJ have more raw skill than Brown or Hyman, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they surpassed Brown and Hyman’s production, if they’re given a regular shift with some PP time.

I worry that Andersen’s playing time could mean a bad injury, especially with his concussion history. It would be nice if his playing time was decreased a little bit especially in the middle of the season, then ramp it up in the final two or three weeks before heading into the playoffs. All depends on him and how he likes to stay focused.

Agreed, but I'm only tempering expectations of Kapanen and Johnsson just because it's tough to know where they fit in the lineup. Either (Johnsson?) might start on the Kadri line at best if Ennis doesn't make the lineup or team, and the other (Kapanen?) might start on the 4th line due to RW strength and Brown's previous success with Kadri. I also think only one might see PP time (probably Johnsson).

Theoretically, I'd like to see shots against decreased. Obviously that affects stats like SV%, but I care more that the goalie gives his team the chance to win (by # of goals allowed) regardless of how many shots faced. Andersen had the same # of GP in both seasons as a Leaf, but minutes and SA increased in season two. Will be interesting to see how the goalies are handled this season, with scheduling, the personnel in the goalie tandem and team/goalie performance being some factors.

 

[Goonface2k14]

If our players (stars and whatnot) can't handle playoff hockey on their own then I think there's another issue... Don't get me wrong, I get your point and I agree with it to some degree. I just believe we have players capable of that already and others that can elevate that kind of play as they mature both mentally and physically.

I agree that it’s not an exact science, and if we have skilled players who can elevate their game and handle a big hit here and there, then we should have no problem. Mitch was a great example of that last playoffs, where he was able to take a hit, and was our best forward. I just worry about other players who might not want to dance in the corners or in front. It’s just an area of potential vulnerability that shouldn’t be taken lightly, especially on defense. Jake is a featherweight, and Zaitsev and Rielly aren’t much stronger.

 

[Goonface2k14]

I don't think the physical play hurt the Leafs at all in that Boston series (with the exception of the Kadri incident). And Boston was quickly dispatched by another speedy, skill-driven team in Tampa in round 2.
We were beaten by a better, more experienced team, that's it. As we continue to get better and more experienced, the outcome will likely change in a rematch.

Maybe I’m not remember it properly, but I thought Boston was finishing their checks a lot more than Toronto was in that series.

Anyhow, it’s a nice-to-have, as long as it doesn’t take away from their current strengths.

 

[IBeL34f]

Maybe I’m not remember it properly, but I thought Boston was finishing their checks a lot more than Toronto was in that series.

Anyhow, it’s a nice-to-have, as long as it doesn’t take away from their current strengths.

I do believe that Boston was better at finishing their checks than the Leafs were, certainly, but I just don't believe the correlation between those hits and their eventual series victory is all that strong.

They had a better offensive cycle game than we did, they successfully neutered our star center in front of their net, and they had the experience of having done all of this many times before - Each of those factors, in my opinion, played a larger role in their victory than their physical play, and each one of those factors should be lessened moving forward, as we get better and more experienced.

A rematch at this point would actually be really, really interesting.

 

[Goonface2k14]

Agreed, but I'm only tempering expectations of Kapanen and Johnsson just because it's tough to know where they fit in the lineup. Either (Johnsson?) might start on the Kadri line at best if Ennis doesn't make the lineup or team, and the other (Kapanen ?) might start on the 4th line due to RW strength and Brown's previous success with Kadri. I also think only one might see PP time (probably Johnsson).
Theoretically, I'd like to see shots against decreased. Obviously that affects stats like SV%, but I care more that the goalie gives his team the chance to win (by # of goals allowed) regardless of how many shots faced. Andersen had the same # of GP in both seasons as a Leaf, but minutes and SA increased in season two. Will be interesting to see how the goalies are handled this season, with scheduling, the personnel in the goalie tandem and team/goalie performance being some factors.

Yeah, a lot will depend on where the new guys play. Babcock will probably shift guys around on the third and fourth lines, so tempering expectations makes sense.

And yes, they ultimately need to play a better possession game to reduce shots against. More faceoff wins (JT should help) and less long, risky passes to remain in possession of the puck will go a long way (that will require more full team discipline to support each other, which comes with coaching and on-ice leadership… again, I think JT should make everyone better).

 

[IBeL34f]

Perhaps I should've said that if it takes away from our strengths, then maybe it's not a good move to add toughness just for the sake of toughness.

If it compliments our strengths, then it makes us better. Especially on the back end. Way too many soft guys who can be overwhelmed by physical play.

And I certainly have no problem with adding more physical players, as long as it happens naturally.

To come out of this series thinking we needed to get bigger and stronger, though, just feels like an overreaction to the wrong problem, in my opinion, and is reminiscent of Nonis coming out of the last Boston series thinking we needed to draft a Gauthier for some size and strength down the middle. The NHL appears, very obviously (to me, anyway), to be evolving towards a speed/skill game that will start passing a lot of teams by - After what we endured at the beginning of the cap era, I don't ever want to be stuck behind the 8-ball again as far as long-term team-building goes.

 

[tokiih]

I agree that it’s not an exact science, and if we have skilled players who can elevate their game and handle a big hit here and there, then we should have no problem. Mitch was a great example of that last playoffs, where he was able to take a hit, and was our best forward. I just worry about other players who might not want to dance in the corners or in front. It’s just an area of potential vulnerability that shouldn’t be taken lightly, especially on defense. Jake is a featherweight, and Zaitsev and Rielly aren’t much stronger.

Yeah. The defense needs some work one way or another anyways - I believe most agree on that. Personally I would love to see Borgman back in the lineup but then there's the LD/RD dilemma.

 

[crump]

No real concerns.

• Tavares is here
• Andersen will probably be managed better next season.
• Gardiner and Zaitsev need to bounce back, Zaitsev already had a decent World Cup Tournament after the season and looks finally recovered from injuries. Gardiner is who he is, he'll probably be traded next deadline because we won't be able to afford him anyway.
• New players coming in are going to be pretty awesome to watch. A full year of Dermott, Kapanen and Johnsson is going to be great.
• All the young guys will be just be entering their elite stages of their young careers.
• Rielly will be considered a top 5 defenseman in the league by Christmas.
• Oh....and Tavares is here.