The greatest trade tree in San Jose Sharks history: Post-Karlsson trade revisit (HUGE pic warning)

[The Nemesis]

I mentioned this the day of the trade, but with the Karlsson transaction having included Chris Tierney and Rudolfs Balcers ( ), the trade extended the life of a chain of deals that can be traced unbroken back all the way to the 1993 draft and the Sharks' first round pick that year. So in honor of that, I have spent the last few days creating what might be my magnum opus: a complete visual reference to the greatest trade tree in Sharks history and possibly one of the greatest in NHL history.

Apologies for the quality, I had to compress it a fair bit to get under HF's limits (and I hope it hasn't reduced the dimensions any.). If I can figure out a way/place to upload the full size, undegraded image (the original attempt was a ~13MB png file. The Photoshop file is close to 100MB), I'll see about doing that. I also didn't want to get into slices and puzzling the image together because I'm not sure how NuHF mobile or tablet setups handle parsing images and inserting line breaks that might bork this up.

Click the image to blow it up to full size. Tracking the paths through the trades works as follows:

Spoiler: Explanation & instructions

1) Start where it says "Start here!" That's the first deal with the Sharks trading away their 1993 1st round pick to Hartford for the Whalers' 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks in that same draft.
2) String colors indicate the nature of the trade paths.

• The red string at the top is the common path (sending SJ's first to Hartford)
• The teal string follows the path of the 1st round pick that the Sharks acquired from Hartford and all the connected trades that followed.
• The green string follows the path of the 2nd round pick acquired and its follow-up trades.
• The blue string follows the path of the 3rd round pick acquired and its follow-up trades.
• Orange strings appear on any given path and represent assets the Sharks trade in deals connected to the tree that weren't acquired as part of this tree of deals itself (for example, when Viktor Kozlov (the pick with Hartford's first) was traded to Florida, the Sharks included a 1998 4th round selection. That 98 4th is tied to the Florida deal with an orange string.

3) Pushpin colors indicate the nature of the item pinned.

• Gray pins are for indicating the team involved with the Sharks in the trade, via the displayed logo and the date the trade occurred (to the best of my research).
• Green pins are draft picks involved in trades here. On each card pinned by a green pin you'll see the logo of the relevant draft, the pick and round of the selection traded, and the logo of the team to whom the pick belonged at the outset of the deal illustrated in the tree (for example, in the initial trade, the 2nd overall pick was the Sharks' selection traded to Hartford. It has a Sharks logo. The 3 picks brought back to San Jose display the Whalers logo.) When relevant or interesting, I have noted the player who those draft picks were used to select. They are the card/picture that is tacked to the draft pick card with a silver thumbtack.
• Orange pins are for players that were drafted with picks acquired in trades in this tree who were subsequently traded away in connected trades. Viktor Kozlov gets an orange pin to show his trade out of town. Tyson Sexsmith doesn't because he was never traded away by the Sharks
• Blue pins are players acquired in trade or traded away by the Sharks who were not part of draft picks in this tree (Andrei Nazarov was shipped to Tampa Bay as part of one of the trades, but he was drafted in 1992 with a pick that has nothing to do with any of these trades. So he gets a blue pin, not an orange one)
• Red pins are notes where a particular branch of the tree ends (either permanently or for now with a player still on the Sharks)
• Teal pins are general notes, comments, trivia, or flavor

4) Just follow the strings that go from each player's hockey card/image or draft pick card to the next trade icon connected to them and continue. If multiple assets from a single trade panned out into stuff, they will be their own sub-branch as long as necessary. You'll know you've hit the end of a path when you come across the red pin

For those that want a text reference to the above image to decipher the moves:

Spoiler: Root Trade

1. June 26, 1993: Sharks trade their 1993 1st round pick (2nd overall. Whalers select Chris Pronger. BOOOOO!!!!!!) to Hartford for the Whalers' 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks in the same 1993 draft.
2. The Sharks use the 1st round pick (6th overall) acquired in (1) to select Viktor Kozlov.
3. The Sharks use the 2nd round pick (45th overall) acquired in (1) to select Vlastimil Kroupa.
4. The Sharks use the 3rd round pick (58th overall) acquired in (1) to select Ville Peltonen.

From here, the 3 picks have their own branches shown below:

Spoiler: 1st rounder (Kozlov) path

1. November 14, 1997: Sharks trade Kozlov and a 5th round pick in the 1998 draft (98th overall) to Florida for Dave Lowry and Florida's 1st round pick in the 1998 draft (1st overall)
2. Path Split from (1), Sub-Branch (A): July 26, 2000: Lowry becomes a free agent and signs a contract with the Calgary Flames. SUB-BRANCH (1)(A) ENDS.
3. Path Split from (1), Sub-Branch (B): March 24, 1998: Sharks trade the 1st round pick acquired from Florida in (1) along with Andrei Nazarov to Tampa Bay for Bryan Marchment, David Shaw, and Tampa Bay's 1st round draft pick in the 1998 draft (2nd overall). Note: Tampa Bay would use the 1st rounder acquired here to draft Vincent Lecavalier.
4. Path Split from (3), Sub-Branch (A): David Shaw never actually joined the Sharks. The team appears to have simply loaned him to remain with Las Vegas of the IHL and allowed his contract to expire. SUB-BRANCH (3)(A) ENDS.
5. Path Split from (3), Sub-Branch (B) June 27, 1998: The 1st round pick acquired from Tampa Bay in (3) is traded to Nashville in the deal discussed below in Kroupa Path (2) PROCEED TO KROUPA (2) TO CONTINUE THIS BRANCH
6. March 8, 2003: Sharks trade Marchment to Colorado for a 3rd round pick (97th overall) in 2003 and a 5th round pick (163rd overall) in 2003.
7. Path Split from (6), Sub-Branch (A): June 21, 2003: The 5th round pick acquired from Colorado in (6) is traded back to Colorado for Scott Parker.
8. February 27, 2007: Scott Parker is traded back to Colorado for a 6th round pick (170th overall) in the 2008 draft.
9. June 23, 2007: The 6th round pick acquired in (8) is traded back to Colorado (this is not a typo) along with a 4th (113th overall) and 5th (143rd overall) in 2007 for Colorado's 3rd round pick (91st overall) in the 2007 draft.
10. With the 91st overall selection acquired in (9), the Sharks pick G Tyson Sexsmith from the Vancouver Giants (WHL).
11. Oct 11, 2012: Sexsmith is non-tendered by the Sharks after 3 uneventful seasons in Worcester and becomes a free agent. He would sign in the KHL for a year, play a year in Italy, and then apparently retire. He was most recently seen in 2017 attending Vancouver's 10th anniversary of their Memorial Cup victory looking very much like a guy who hasn't played hockey in 5 years. SUB-BRANCH (6)(A) ENDS.
12. Path Split from (6), Sub-Branch (B): June 21, 2003: The 3rd round pick acquired from Colorado in (6) is packaged with San Jose's own 5th (143rd overall) and 6th (173rd overall) in the 2003 draft and traded to Calgary for Calgary's 2nd round pick (53rd overall) in 2006.
13. June 24, 2006: Sharks trade the Calgary 2nd rounder acquired in (12) along with their own 1st rounder (20th overall) to Montreal for the Canadiens' 1st rounder (16th overall) in this same 2006 draft.
14. The Sharks use the 1st rounder acquired in (13) to draft D Ty Wishart from Prince George of the WHL
15. July 4, 2008: Wishart is part of a package made up of Matt Carle, the Sharks 2009 1st round selection (26th overall) and the Sharks 2010 4th rounder (118th overall) which is traded to Tampa Bay for Dan Boyle and Brad Lukowich.
16. Path Split from (15), Sub-Branch (A): June 5, 2014: With his contract set to expire on July 1, the rights to Dan Boyle are traded to the New York Islanders for the Isles' 5th round pick (142nd overall) in 2015. For posterity's sake, the Isles would fail to sign Boyle even with the extended negotiating window, watching him walk to the New York Rangers on July 1 instead.
17. With the 5th rounder acquired in (16), the Sharks select F Rudolfs Balcers from Stavinger of the Norwegian league. Sub-Branch continued below in (22).
18. Path Split from (15), Sub-Branch (B): August 28, 2009: Brad Lukowich is packaged with Christian Ehrhoff and traded to Vancouver for prospects Pat White and Daniel Rahimi.
19. Path Split from (18), Sub-Branch (A) June 30, 2010: Rahimi is non-tendered by the Sharks with him never having come over from Europe. SUB-BRANCH (18)(A) ENDS.
20. Path Split from (18), Sub-Branch (B), Aug 16, 2011: Sharks elect not to offer a contract to Pat White as he leaves college. As an unsigned former 1st round selection (Vancouver selected White 25th overall in 2007) the Sharks are entitled to a compensation pick from the league, the 25th pick in the 2nd round of the 2012 draft, 55th overall.
21. With the pick acquired in (20), the Sharks select Chris Tierney.
22. Branch merger of Sub-Branches (15)(A)&(B): September 13, 2018: Tierney, drafted in (21) and Balcers, drafted in (17) are packaged with an assortment of future draft picks and Dylan DeMelo and traded to Ottawa for Erik Karlsson and Francis Perron.
23. Path Split from (22), Sub-Branch (A), June 22,2019: Francis Perron is packaged with a 2019 7th rounder and traded to Vancouver for Tom Pyatt and a 2019 6th rounder. Pyatt would leave without ever suiting up for the Sharks, spending the next year playing in Europe.
24. With the pick acquired in (23) the Sharks would select Timur Ibragimov
25. Ibragimov was included in a package with Santeri Hatakka, Zachary Emond, Scott Harrington, a 2024 5th round pick, and Timo Meier sent to the New Jersey Devils for Andreas Johnsson, Nikita Okhotiuk, Fabian Zetterlund, Shakir Mukhamadullin, a 2023 1st round draft pick, and a conditional 2024 draft pick (will be a 2nd round pick unless the Devils make it to the Eastern Conference Final this season, in which case it becomes a 1st). Johnsson would leave the Sharks in the off-season as a free agent. BRANCH ONGOING AS OF JAN 1, 2024
26. Path Split from (22), Sub-Branch (B), August 6, 2023: The Sharks trade Dillon Hamaliuk, a 2026 3rd round pick, and Erik Karlsson to the Pittsburgh Penguins for Jan Ruttta, Mikael Granlund, Mike Hoffman, and Pittsburgh's 2024 1st round pick. BRANCH ONGOING AS OF JAN 1, 2024

Spoiler: 2nd rounder (Kroupa) path

1. August 22, 1997: Sharks trade Kroupa to New Jersey for the Devils' 3rd round pick (85th overall) in the 1998 draft.
2. June 27, 1998: Sharks trade the pick acquired from New Jersey above in (1) along with the 1998 1st round pick acquired from Tampa Bay in Kozlov branch (3) to Nashville for Nashville's 1st round pick (3rd overall) and 2nd round pick (29th overall) in the 1998 draft. Note: Nashville would use the 1st rounder acquired in this trade to draft David Legwand.
3. Path Split from (2), sub-branch (A): The Sharks would use the 1st rounder from Nashville in (2) to select Brad Stuart.
4. November 30, 2005: Stuart is packaged with Wayne Primeau and Marco Sturm and traded to Boston for Joe Thornton. SUB-BRANCH (2)(A) ENDS
5. Path Split from (2), Sub-Branch (B): The Sharks would use the 2nd rounder from Nashville in (2) to select Jonathan Cheechoo
6. September 12, 2009: Cheechoo would be packaged with Milan Michalek and a 2nd round pick in 2010 (58th overall) and traded to Ottawa for Dany Heatley and a 5th round pick in 2010 (136th overall)
7. Path Split from (6), Sub-Branch (A): The Sharks would use the 5th rounder acquired in (6) to draft D Isaac MacLeod from the Penticton Vees of the BCHL. He would play out an uneventful career with Boston College and be non-tendered by the Sharks, playing 1 season afterwards in the ECHL before disappearing off the hockey map. SUB-BRANCH (6)(A) ENDS.
8. Path Split from (6), Sub-Branch (B): July 3, 2011: After 2 years in San Jose, Heatley would be traded to Minnesota for Martin Havlat. Note that for the sake of consistency, I am not counting this trade and the co-timed Burns trade as the same deal. They were consummated separately and will be judged as such.
9. June 27, 2014: San Jose buys out the final year of Havlat's contract, making him a free agent. SUB-BRANCHES (2)(B) & (6)(B) END. BRANCH ENDS.

Spoiler: 3rd rounder (Peltonen) path

1. June 26, 1998: Sharks trade Peltonen to Nashville for the Predators' 5th rounder (116th overall) in the 1998 draft.
2. June 27, 1998: Sharks trade the pick acquired from Nashville above in (1) to Phoenix for the Coyotes' 5th round pick (145th overall) in the 1999 draft.
3. March 23, 1999: Sharks trade the pick acquired from Phoenix above in (2) along with their own 2nd round pick in the 2001 draft (53rd overall) to Montreal for Vincent Damphousse.
4. August 19, 2004: After 3 and a half years in San Jose, Damphousse leaves as a free agent and signs with the Avalanche. However, the lockout puts the kibosh on him suiting up with the Avs and he would choose to retire without ever playing again. BRANCH ENDS

The short, short version is that what started as the pick that would become Chris Pronger (BOOOOOO!) would end up with the Sharks now as Joe Thornton, Erik Karlsson, and Francis Perron.

Maybe if I have time I'll note what became of the assorted other draft picks that were traded in the various deals. Most of them besides the ones noted above amounted to basically nothing or middling players like, say, Brad Richardson. The only kind of funny one is that the Habs used the 2nd rounder they acquired for the Wishart trade-up to pick Mathieu Carle and then the Sharks would flip Wishart in the package to Tampa Bay with Matt Carle. So there was a Carle and Carle (no relation) connection

Click to read more...

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

My question is, what kind of brain dead GM was trading a 2nd overall pick for the 6th overall, a 2nd round pick, and a 3rd round pick?

Thanks for doing all this work Nem. I had no idea we could have drafted Chris Pronger.

 

[slocal]

This...this is glorious!! Holy moly what a piece of work. It takes a madman to put this all together!

Haha @ Armistice pic

 

[slocal]

The freemasons symbol!?!?! Bwahahaha

 

[Coily]

Pepe Silvia would be proud of this work.

 

[The Nemesis]

My question is, what kind of brain dead GM was trading a 2nd overall pick for the 6th overall, a 2nd round pick, and a 3rd round pick?

Thanks for doing all this work Nem. I had no idea we could have drafted Chris Pronger.

I think it was Brian Burke.

EDIT: yes, it was. Burke was the GM of Hartford for the 92-93 season and left before the next season began to take the VP of Hockey Ops job with the league. So he made that Pronger trade and bailed in the immediate aftermath.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

 

[Sandisfan]

All Hail NEM All Hail NEM

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I think it was Brian Burke.

EDIT: yes, it was. Burke was the GM of Hartford for the 92-93 season and left before the next season began to take the VP of Hockey Ops job with the league. So he made that Pronger trade and bailed in the immediate aftermath.

I meant who was our idiot GM during that time. In general, without any knowledge of what players are available at each spot, that trade is heavily slanted in favor of Hartford from a value perspective.

 

[The Nemesis]

The bit of minutiae that I wanted to put up earlier: what became of the various picks that were traded away in these deals (presented in chronological order, not trade order. Note that not all of these players were drafted by the team that the Sharks traded the pick to)

New Jersey 1998 3rd rounder (85) (traded to Nashville): LW Geoff Koch - Bust who never went anywhere out of college

Nashville 1998 5th rounder (116) (traded to Phoenix): G Josh Blackburn - PLayed in the low minors after college before quitting in 2005. Was actually born in Oklahoma, which is kind of a cool trivia bit.

San Jose 1998 5th rounder (117) (traded to Florida): D Jaroslav Spacek - The biggest name in any of these picks beyond the high 1sts (Pronger, Lecavalier, Legwand). Played nearly 900 NHL games as a very solid two-way defender with 8 different teams before wrapping up his career in 2013 in his native Czech Republic

Phoenix 1999 5th rounder (145) (traded to Montreal): D Marc-Andre Thinel - career minor leaguer who now plays in France.

San Jose 2001 2nd rounder (53) (traded to Montreal): C Kiel McLeod - Bounced around the AHL and ECHL and finished up in some low Euro leagues. One of the proud alumni of the ECHL Victoria Salmon Kings.

Colorado 2003 3rd rounder (97) (traded to Calgary): LW Ryan Donally - career minor leaguer

San Jose 2003 5th rounder (143) (traded to Calgary): RW Greg Moore - played 10 career NHL games and spent most of his career in the AHL and Germany. Not related to Dominic or Steve Moore

Colorado 2003 5th rounder (163) (traded to Colorado): C Brad Richardson - played nearly 700 NHL games with Colroado, LA, Vancouver, and Arizona as a gritty bottom-6 forward.

San Jose 2003 6th rounder (173) (traded to Calgary): C Tyler Johnson (no, not that one) - never got past his WHL career. Played 2 games in a super low-level minor pro legaue in Alaska and was never seen again

San Jose 2006 1st rounder (20) (traded to Montreal): D David Fischer (one of the few 1st round D-men that year that had a less distinguished NHL career than Ty Wishart. Never played an NHL game. Currently plays in Austria.

Calgary 2006 2nd rounder (53) (traded to Montreal): D Mathieu Carle - Separate and legally distinct from Matt Carle. Played last year in Mannheim of the DEL.

San Jose 2007 4th rounder (113) (traded to Colorado): G Kent Patterson - Has spent most of his career in the ECHL. Never made the NHL

San Jose 2007 5th rounder (143) (traded to Colorado): C Mickey Renaud - tragically died of a heart defect in the middle of the night during his first post-draft season.

Colorado 2008 6th rounder (170) (traded to Colorado): D Jonas Holos - played 39 games with the Avs in 10-11, along with 17 games in teh AHL. Left to return to Europe and has since played in Sweden and Russia before playing last season in Switzerland.

San Jose 2009 1st rounder (26) (traded to Tampa Bay): C/W Kyle Palmieri - This pick traded hands like 6 more times before the Ducks drafted Palmieri. 9 years later he's since been traded to New Jersey and is an NHL regular with 422 games to his credit.

San Jose 2010 2nd rounder (58) (traded to Ottawa): G Kent Simpson - Had 1 solitary NHL game to his credit with Chicago, playing 20 minutes in 13-14. Spent hte rest of the time bouncing between the AHL and ECHL before appearing to hang it up 2 years ago.

San Jose 2010 4th rounder (118) (traded to Tampa Bay): C/W James Mullin - Appears to have not been offered a contract out of college in 2015-16. Vanished for a season before playing last year in the ECHL.

 

[McDeez]

Wow. This is amazing. Awesome job, Nem!

 

[The Nemesis]

I meant who was our idiot GM during that time. In general, without any knowledge of what players are available at each spot, that trade is heavily slanted in favor of Hartford from a value perspective.

heavily slanted in HArtford's favor? That seems a little bit hyperbolic.

They moved up 4 spots in the draft and it cost them their next 2 rounds worth of picks. The trade was consummated at the draft. So it was likely a case of the Whalers really wanting Pronger and the Sharks preferring someone else (potentially actually Kozlov) and picking up a pair of extra picks in the top 100 for their trouble.

That's a reasonably fair trade. Granted in hindsight it looks awful that they passed up Pronger (and the rest of the top portion of that draft was mostly meh with Alex Daigle, Chris Gratton, Paul Kariya, and Rob Niedermayer being the remainder of the top 5) but there's no way you can reasonably say it's "heavily" in favor of Hartford. It's not like San Jose was trading back from 2 to the late teens.

Just as an example out of this very tree, moving up 4 spots in 2006 (from 20 to 16) only cost the Sharks a 2nd. Yes it was like 15 spots lower in the round, but it's not like that's a big enough difference that the team should've been trying to extort an additional 1st out of them. For further reference, in 2004 the Canes moved up from 8 to 4 for the cost of a 2nd rounder. Florida moving from 3 to 1 in 2002 to select Jay Bouwmeester cost them the right to flip-flop 1st rounders with Columbus in 2003 (Which the Jackets chose not to exercise.)

2 for 6, 2nd rd, 3rd rd is not crazy value like you made it out to be.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

heavily slanted in HArtford's favor? thats ridiculously hyperbolic.

They moved up 4 spots in the draft and it cost them their next 2 rounds worth of picks. The trade was consummated at the draft. So it was likely a case of the Whalers really wanting Pronger and the Sharks preferring someone else (potentially actually Kozlov) and picking up a pair of extra picks in the top 100 for their trouble.

That's a reasonably fair trade. Granted in hindsight it looks awful that they passed up Pronger (and the rest of the top portion of that draft was mostly meh with Alex Daigle, Chris Gratton, Paul Kariya, and Rob Niedermayer being the remainder of the top 5) but there's no way you can reasonably say it's "heavily" in favor of Hartford. It's not like San Jose was trading back from 2 to the late teens.

Just as an example out of this very tree, moving up 4 spots in 2006 (from 20 to 16) only cost the Sharks a 2nd.

No, that’s a pretty slanted trade.

2nd overall for 6th overall, 45th overall, and 58th overall is bad. If you want, we can look up what those picks have historically been over the last 5, 10, 15, 20, or even 25 drafts, dating back to the one where we made this trade, and I can just about guarantee you that in almost every occasion, the 2nd overall pick is far more valuable than the 6th+45th+58th.

Just to look at a few years, so as not to derail the thread:

2015: Jack Eichel Vs. Pavel Zacha, Jakob Forsbacka-Karlsson, Kevin Stenlund

2010: Tyler Seguin Vs. Brett Connolly, Ryan Spooner, and Kent Simpson

2005: Bobby Ryan Vs. Gilbert Brule, Guillame Latendresse, Nate Hagemo

2000: Dany Heatley Vs. Scott Hartnell, Mathieu Choinard, Vladimir Sapozhnikov

1995: Wade Redden Vs. Steve Kelly, Christian LaFlamme, Darryl LaPlante

In fact, I would challenge you to find a draft where #2 is not, by consensus, more valuable than 6, 45, and 58. I would imagine there are only 3 in the entire time frame between now and the time we made that trade. It was a very bad move by whoever our GM was at the time.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

This is just phenomenal! The research is impressive, but the artistry is fantastic as well.

Hats off @The Nemesis

 

[Sandisfan]

As Nem Walks up to the Podium in the Bi-Annual: Message Board Posters Awards

Nem approaches the microphone with moisture welling up in NEMS eyes Nem haltingly Thanks Nems' >insert here (Parent, guardian) name< and then Thanks Nems' >inset here (mentor) name< and of course all the little people who read my posts.

Note: little people is solely for a bit of humor not sarcasm.

Nem Thanks for the effort to create the content for this thread.

P.S. I would vote for a "Message board Poster of the year" as long as the winner had to vote but not for themselves.

 

[The Nemesis]

No, that’s a pretty slanted trade.

2nd overall for 6th overall, 45th overall, and 58th overall is bad. If you want, we can look up what those picks have historically been over the last 5, 10, 15, 20, or even 25 drafts, dating back to the one where we made this trade, and I can just about guarantee you that in almost every occasion, the 2nd overall pick is far more valuable than the 6th+45th+58th.

I already amended some of my above post.

Columbus in 02 pays the right to swap 1sts in 03 to move from 3 to 1. Florida chose not to exercise that swap right, so the Jackets basically moved up for free. Ultimately it likely would've made the price of going from 3 to 1 equal to the price of moving a handful of spots in the 1st again (for the record, the two teams picked 3rd and 4th in 03)

Carolina in 04 moved from 8 to 4 for just #59

From the above tree, the Sharks moving from 2 to 3 in 1998 cost #28

in 2008 there was a weird trio of swaps in the top 10

Nashville moved from 9 to 7 in exchange for #40

Toronto moved from 7 to 5 for 68 and a 2nd in 2009 that I can't pin down at the moment.

The Isles ended up moving back from 5 to 9 in this and picked up some of the picks that were noted above.

You can argue that you're specifically saying the 2nd itself is more valuable, but there's not nearly enough trades of the 2nd overall pick to move up within the top 10 or so to form any kind of real specific value for that hypothesis. But on the whole moving a few picks within the top 10 might cost you as high as a single top 30 pick (the time the Sharks got Cheechoo's pick) or picks in the 40s-60s. You can't be super exact, and maybe the value is a little bit off, but it's too inflammatory to say that this is some sort of ridiculous trade that proves the Sharks GM at the time was an idiot.

For what it's worth, the GM of the Sharks at the time was Chuck Grillo, who served from 1992 to 1996 before being succeeded by Dean Lombardi.

 

[The Nemesis]

No, that’s a pretty slanted trade.

2nd overall for 6th overall, 45th overall, and 58th overall is bad. If you want, we can look up what those picks have historically been over the last 5, 10, 15, 20, or even 25 drafts, dating back to the one where we made this trade, and I can just about guarantee you that in almost every occasion, the 2nd overall pick is far more valuable than the 6th+45th+58th.

Just to look at a few years, so as not to derail the thread:

2015: Jack Eichel Vs. Pavel Zacha, Jakob Forsbacka-Karlsson, Kevin Stenlund

2010: Tyler Seguin Vs. Brett Connolly, Ryan Spooner, and Kent Simpson

2005: Bobby Ryan Vs. Gilbert Brule, Guillame Latendresse, Nate Hagemo

2000: Dany Heatley Vs. Scott Hartnell, Mathieu Choinard, Vladimir Sapozhnikov

1995: Wade Redden Vs. Steve Kelly, Christian LaFlamme, Darryl LaPlante

In fact, I would challenge you to find a draft where #2 is not, by consensus, more valuable than 6, 45, and 58. I would imagine there are only 3 in the entire time frame between now and the time we made that trade. It was a very bad move by whoever our GM was at the time.

That's an awful way to look at it given the broad variance in what becomes of 2nds and 3rds with hindsight (and the value of the 1sts for that matter). The only fair way to evaluate that sort of value is to look at similar trades that were completed ahead of the players being picked when the value of the picks is "pure" and not tainted by post-hoc assessments of the players they became. The value of a currency is in what it can purchase, not what it does.

I could cherry pick and say that the value of 7th overall and some arbitrary later pick (it doens't matter which) is superior to 3rd overall by citing Ryan Suter vs Nathan Horton, Mike Komisarek vs Alex Svitov, Shane Doan vs Aki Berg, Jakub Voracek vs Kyle Turris, and so forth. Your analysis essentially holds it against the 6th pick that Connolly, Brule, and Kelly were busts and the specific later 2nds and 3rds were nothing picks. What if a team armed with taht #6 took Anze Kopitar or Marc Staal instead of Brule? or Jeff Skinner instead of Connolly? Suddenly the value of that pick looks quite different in your assessment, which would tend to indicate that there's something wrong with the model.

I'm not saying the Sharks wouldn't have been better off with Pronger (at the time. Since hindsight now tells us that ended up becoming Thornton/Karlsson in the now), I'm just saying that you'd probably be better off not framing your statement to be so incendiary. It doesn't help your case. If anything my reaction shows that it hurts it because people are likely to be put off by what appears to be a needlessly hot take.

 

[hohosaregood]

That's an awful way to look at it given the broad variance in what becomes of 2nds and 3rds with hindsight (and the value of the 1sts for that matter). The only fair way to evaluate that sort of value is to look at similar trades that were completed ahead of the players being picked when the value of the picks is "pure" and not tainted by post-hoc assessments of the players they became. The value of a currency is in what it can purchase, not what it does.

I could cherry pick and say that the value of 7th overall and some arbitrary later pick (it doens't matter which) is superior to 3rd overall by citing Ryan Suter vs Nathan Horton, Mike Komisarek vs Alex Svitov, Shane Doan vs Aki Berg, Jakub Voracek vs Kyle Turris, and so forth. Your analysis essentially holds it against the 6th pick that Connolly, Brule, and Kelly were busts and the specific later 2nds and 3rds were nothing picks. What if a team armed with taht #6 took Anze Kopitar or Marc Staal instead of Brule? or Jeff Skinner instead of Connolly? Suddenly the value of that pick looks quite different in your assessment, which would tend to indicate that there's something wrong with the model.

I'm not saying the Sharks wouldn't have been better off with Pronger (at the time. Since hindsight now tells us that ended up becoming Thornton/Karlsson in the now), I'm just saying that you'd probably be better off not framing your statement to be so incendiary. It doesn't help your case. If anything my reaction shows that it hurts it because people are likely to be put off by what appears to be a needlessly hot take.

I was listening to the Bobcast or 31 thoughts a couple months ago and they were talking about drafting BPA or for need. They brought up that Pronger pick as one reason why you should draft BPA. They mentioned that the GM at the time said to Pronger, "we already have a big dman in the system, tell us why we need you" and it kinda went from there. Not a great strategy by the early management but coulda ended up more like a Brad Stuart instead of an HOF dman so watcha goinna do bout it.

 

[SactoShark]

This is amazing. You should develop a service for GMs and former GMs to trace their lunacy like a TradeAncestry.com.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

My question is, what kind of brain dead GM was trading a 2nd overall pick for the 6th overall, a 2nd round pick, and a 3rd round pick?

Thanks for doing all this work Nem. I had no idea we could have drafted Chris Pronger.

A GM that had only old players past their prime who was playing catch up to try and build thru the draft. The teams in those years were hilariously untalented but were high on heart. They came into existence under the most screwed set of expansion rules I've ever seen in any of the big sports.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

That's an awful way to look at it given the broad variance in what becomes of 2nds and 3rds with hindsight (and the value of the 1sts for that matter). The only fair way to evaluate that sort of value is to look at similar trades that were completed ahead of the players being picked when the value of the picks is "pure" and not tainted by post-hoc assessments of the players they became. The value of a currency is in what it can purchase, not what it does.

I could cherry pick and say that the value of 7th overall and some arbitrary later pick (it doens't matter which) is superior to 3rd overall by citing Ryan Suter vs Nathan Horton, Mike Komisarek vs Alex Svitov, Shane Doan vs Aki Berg, Jakub Voracek vs Kyle Turris, and so forth. Your analysis essentially holds it against the 6th pick that Connolly, Brule, and Kelly were busts and the specific later 2nds and 3rds were nothing picks. What if a team armed with taht #6 took Anze Kopitar or Marc Staal instead of Brule? or Jeff Skinner instead of Connolly? Suddenly the value of that pick looks quite different in your assessment, which would tend to indicate that there's something wrong with the model.

I'm not saying the Sharks wouldn't have been better off with Pronger (at the time. Since hindsight now tells us that ended up becoming Thornton/Karlsson in the now), I'm just saying that you'd probably be better off not framing your statement to be so incendiary. It doesn't help your case. If anything my reaction shows that it hurts it because people are likely to be put off by what appears to be a needlessly hot take.

1991 draft... and Eric Lindros (1), Fat Balloon (2) and Peter Forsberg (6)

 

[The Nemesis]

This is amazing. You should develop a service for GMs and former GMs to trace their lunacy like a TradeAncestry.com.

The unfortunate thing is that I don't think I'll ever be able to top this. I've never seen another single transaction that can be spun off into anything close to the depth and breadth of this one. Way way way back when my inspiration was a look at what became of Edmonton's return on the Gretzky trade (I believe the answer was just north of "****-all" unless you want to put a lot of stock into turning some of those pieces into underwhelming returns that still played smallish-but-pivotal roles in getting the Oilers that last cup before the rickety corpse of their 80s dynasty sank into the proverbial tar pits. But I digress) and since then I've often just randomly popped a player name or draft class into hockeydb and wikipedia to see if I could trace out anything halfway interesting. Usually the result is a resounding "no".

I doubt we'll ever see a tree like this again that runs unbroken for 24+ years, spanning nearly the entire lifetime of the franchise, over a dozen players, another dozen draft picks, and winding its tendril-like branches through basically every acquisition of note that this team made during the 21st century short of the Burns trade.

Just for kicks, Pat Falloon was traded to Philly 4 years into his career for a 1st and a 4th (the fact that he got a 1st given his legacy is a huge system shock. But he still I guess looked like a serviceable 2nd liner at that point). Both those picks would be flipped the very same day to Buffalo for Doug Bodger. Bodger lasted 2 years before he (and Dody Wood) got sold off to New Jersey for John MacLean and Ken Sutton. Within a year Sutton was sent back to the Devils for futures while MacLean played out the rest of that season before he hit free agency and skipped town to join the Rangers. Tree's done in basically 4 steps, none of which are notable at all except that the 1st the Sharks relayed from Philly to Buffalo ended up as Danny Briere.

Andrei Zyuzin was the #2 pick in 1996 (man, for all the complaints about the Sharks never touching Russians nowadays, maybe they got gunshy after a thoroughly uninspired run of Russian 1st round flubs in the 90s like Zyuzin, Kozlov, and Andrei Nazarov), spent 2 years with team teal, and then was packed up with Sean Burr, Bill Houlder, and Steve Guolla and sent to Tampa for Nik Sundstrom and a 3rd rounder in 2000. Sundstrom would later be flipped with an 04 3rd rounder to the Habs for Jeff Hackett, giving him his second tour of duty in SJ after being an Expansion Draft claimee. Said tour would lass less than 24 hours before he and Jeff Jillson were traded to Boston for a 2004 4th rounder and Kyle McLaren. McLaren would hang up his yellow visor after his time with the Sharks. The 4th from the Bruins at the tail end of this chain would be used to draft Torrey Mitchell, who would explode for taco goals and break his leg and not do a whole hell of a lot else before finally leaving for Minnesota after a few years. Meanwhile, that 2000 3rd was used as currency to trade up with Chicago, moving from 49 to 41 in the 2000 2nd round to draft Tero Maatta. Whoops. The only other fun fact is that immediately after the Torrey Mitchell pick was the Rangers selecting Ryan Callahan... With a pick they got from San Jose... which the Sharks traded to the Rangers as "Future Considerations"... in a deal they consummated on June 30, 2003, mere hours before the start of free agency... for the expiring contract of Mark Frigging Messier. Who promptly sat around on the SJ contract list for those scant few hours before going right back to the Rangers on a brand new UFA contract. So the Sharks gave up a 4th rounder for barely a few hours of trying and failing to convince Messier to come west before he went right back to the team that traded his rights in the first place. I mean, at least the Isles got a couple weeks with Boyle before he bailed for Manhattan and left them with nothing to show for it except a shiny new Rudy Balcers in San Jose (until last week )

As a last look right now, sandwiched in among the Pronger return was the Sharks' own 2nd rounder in that draft: Shean Donovan. He would eventually be traded to Colorado with the Sharks' 98 1st (that would end up as Alex Tanguay) for Mike Ricci and the 50th pick in the 98 draft. Ricci played all those good years in teal before leaving as a free agent for the Desert Dogs. That 2nd round pick that was acquired with him would later be part of a package sent to Buffalo (with Kay Whitmore and a 5th rounder in 2000) for Steve Shields and a 1998 4th. The 4th would beget draftee Miro Zalesak, who was basically a Quad-A player that decided he'd rather play at home in the Czech and Slovak leagues than be good enough for the AHL but not good enough for the NHL. Shields would be traded to Anaheim, joined by Jeff Friesen and a conditional 03 pick (it would end up as a 2nd rounder, which the Ducks would later package with their own 2nd to trade to Dallas for the 28th overall pick in 03, forever cursing us to live with Corey Perry within the division) in return for Teemu Selanne. Teemu would have his couple of pretty good years in San Jose before leaving us with the memory of that missed net in the playoffs and ultimately we had nothing else to show for him or anything else from this chain of deals.

EDIT: also before I go to sleep, big shoutout to Slocal for being awesome as I worked my way through assembling this and talked about aspects of it with him, and for basically being inside my brain and suggesting the same stringboard setup I was thinking of so that I knew that would be the right call.

 

[OrrNumber4]

...With a pick they got from San Jose... which the Sharks traded to the Rangers as "Future Considerations"... in a deal they consummated on June 30, 2003, mere hours before the start of free agency... for the expiring contract of Mark Frigging Messier. Who promptly sat around on the SJ contract list for those scant few hours before going right back to the Rangers on a brand new UFA contract. So the Sharks gave up a 4th rounder for barely a few hours of trying and failing to convince Messier to come west before he went right back to the team that traded his rights in the first place. I mean, at least the Isles got a couple weeks with Boyle before he bailed for Manhattan and left them with nothing to show for it except a shiny new Rudy Balcers in San Jose (until last week ).

The Sharks received a compensatory pick when Messier "left" to join the Rangers again. Dean Lombardi was the first GM to exploit that loophole. It was shrewd moves like that that endeared him to fans and unloved by NHL executives (including Bettman).

IIRC, they got a third-round pick in return, which they used to trade up to draft Lukas Kaspar.

 

[The Nemesis]

The Sharks received a compensatory pick when Messier "left" to join the Rangers again. Dean Lombardi was the first GM to exploit that loophole. It was shrewd moves like that that endeared him to fans and unloved by NHL executives (including Bettman).

IIRC, they got a third-round pick in return, which they used to trade up to draft Lukas Kaspar.

Ahh, I always forget that the NHL had UFA compensatory picks for a while. Always tend to think it's just a baseball thing. Thanks for the correction

Doing a little google sleuthing it looks like the Sharks did indeed get the Kaspar pick by trading their own 1st (28th) along with the 52nd pick (compo for losing Selanne) and 91st (compo for Messier) to Dallas for Kaspar's pick (22) and the 153rd (Which would be Steve Zalewski). Kaspar would amount to nothing and would pack up and go home after a couple lame years with the Sharks, spend a year in Finland, then get one last crack at North America by spending a year in Philly's farm system. After that he had a marginally productive KHL career before setting out to play this season in his home country. Meanwhile Zalewski was paired with Jay Leach and shipped to New Jersey. Both of them played out the last part of the 10-11 season in Worcester, after which Davis headed to Europe for a few more years and Swift simply vanished.

So there, we get a little extension out of the Selanne tree for this note and correction (since hte Messier thing was just an aside that was only tangentially connected to the trade trees above) but still come away empty handed in the end.

The aside from this extension though is that those picks that went to Dallas ended up as Mark Fistric (a longer-than-you-think run as a depth defenceman for over 300 NHL games and a personal bit of trivia for me as the very first Vancouver Giant to get drafted in the first round and the second player from the franchise to make it to the big leagues after over-age facepuncher Triston Grant got drafted in the 9th round of the same draft but made it to an NHL cameo one year ahead of Fistric.), Raymond Sawada (NHL cup of coffee and nothing else of consequence) and a pick that Dallas would flip to Vancouver and see used on Alex Edler.

 

[Beef Invictus]

This should be brought to the organization's attention. They should reward you with Things.