The Greatest Ever... (Leaf, Ranger, Predator, Senator, Hab, Soviet, etc)

[VanIslander]

No use arguing who's the greatest Red Wing, Bruin, Oiler, Penguin or Sabre.

But what about other teams?

Who's the best AS a player for that team? (No Gretzky was the greatest Blue or Ranger please.)

Leaf fans are all too familiar with this question, as Kennedy, Keon, Apps, Broda, Horton, Sundin, Gilmour, Sittler all have had their proponents. And Salming, Dye or Clancy might have a case to be made.

Which Soviet? Fetisov around here, but Kharlamov among many, Makarov or Tretiak by some, Bobrov by a few.

Which L.A. King? Dionne scored more over 1975-85 than anybody, but Robitaille scored more goals as a King, Doughty has almost as many games played and was dominant in two Stanley Cup championships for the franchise.

Shark? I used to say Marleau over Thornton, but Patty chased money to Toronto and Joe just re-signed for another year in San Jose (he is 59 points away from surpassing Marleau's franchise scoring record), that, and the last 3 seasons tipping the scales for me. And I am a huge Patty fan.

Click to read more...

 

[Hockey Outsider]

For the Stars - is there a serious argument for anyone other than Mike Modano?

 

[seventieslord]

Why is Gretzky not the greatest King? He won three scoring titles, runner-up twice, third another time. Dionne's best were 1-2-2-2-4 and he didn't have Lemieux as competition. Gretzky as a King had 94 points in 60 playoff games - Dionne had 43 in 43. Gretzky finished 1-2-2-4 for the Hart, Dionne finished 2-3-3-5. Dionne averaged a VsX of 96 in his best 8 seasons as a King. Gretzky averaged 105 in his only 8 seasons.

The only way Dionne was a better King than Gretzky is if you believe he did more by compiling some more points in his 9th-12th best seasons as a King, in which he finished a respectable, but comparitively meh, 13th, 18th, 19th and 21st in points.

That said, i think Dionne is an easy #2, with Robitaille and Kopitar two forwards with a case for #3, and Doughty and Blake the defensemen who could rank there.

 

[VanIslander]

Doughty led the Kings in assists to its first-ever championship and was leaned on heavily with 5+ more minutes per game than any other skater in the franchise's second championship.

If he has a 5th Norris finalist season, and/or another dominant postseason, he might start being seen as the greatest King ever.

 

[The Panther]

Doughty is up there (4th?), but I think the greatest L.A. King is a three-way race between Dionne, Robitaille, and Gretzky. I could see a case for each of those three, for sure.

It might be an unpopular opinion, but I've started to think that Mats Sundin is the greatest Maple Leaf ever. There are a few guys (Broda? Gilmour?) who peaked higher, but no one I see had 13 great seasons in a row for the blue & white. We've shown before that Sundin was probably the most consistent scoring forward ever (like, in NHL history) over a long period, and doing that with a not-very-talented Leafs team, while also performing as team captain for a long time, is very impressive (and he had two 2nd-team All Stars at center). The only thing Sundin missed was playoff success, but that goes for every Leaf since 1967.

There are good debates on this for other Canadien teams, notably the Canucks, Flames, and Canadiens (I call Hawerchuk for Jets, and Stastny for NHL Nordiques, though you can quibble about young Sakic).

For the Canucks, I think Bure was the the most talented and most exciting player they ever had... but he was limited in what he could do, and he didn't play at a peak level for that long (or that consistently). The Sedins for sure (but are they one human?), Naslund, Linden, and even Smyl have their supporters.

The Flames seem to come down to MacInnis, Fleury, Iginla, and Kiprusoff (some might even name Kent Nilsson or Joe Nieuwendyk). A case can be made for all four.

The Canadiens had a wealth of tremendous players from the 1940s through 1980s. We tend to focus on the 'big three' forwards -- M. Richard, Beliveau, and Lafleur -- but then again, there's Plante, Dryden, Roy in net, and Harvey (nine 1st-team All Stars, six Norrises), Robinson, etc., etc. on defence.

Rangers is another interesting one...

 

[JackSlater]

I like Bill Cook for the Rangers, Beliveau for Montreal. Toronto is difficult, as there are lots of options and none of them have played for the team since 1975.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Why is Gretzky not the greatest King? He won three scoring titles, runner-up twice, third another time. Dionne's best were 1-2-2-2-4 and he didn't have Lemieux as competition. Gretzky as a King had 94 points in 60 playoff games - Dionne had 43 in 43. Gretzky finished 1-2-2-4 for the Hart, Dionne finished 2-3-3-5. Dionne averaged a VsX of 96 in his best 8 seasons as a King. Gretzky averaged 105 in his only 8 seasons.

The only way Dionne was a better King than Gretzky is if you believe he did more by compiling some more points in his 9th-12th best seasons as a King, in which he finished a respectable, but comparitively meh, 13th, 18th, 19th and 21st in points.

That said, i think Dionne is an easy #2, with Robitaille and Kopitar two forwards with a case for #3, and Doughty and Blake the defensemen who could rank there.

Gretzky with the Kings, -5.

Dionne with the Kings, +105.

 

[seventieslord]

Doughty led the Kings in assists to its first-ever championship and was leaned on heavily with 5+ more minutes per game than any other skater in the franchise's second championship.

If he has a 5th Norris finalist season, and/or another dominant postseason, he might start being seen as the greatest King ever.

Doughty's great, yes. But he's had four seasons as a top-5 defenseman in the league as a King, and Gretzky had four seasons as a top-5 player.

I also fully respect everything he did for them in the playoffs, but being an all-around 28-minute #1 defenseman for a cup winning team is something one player does every 1-2 seasons. scoring playoff points at the rate Gretzky did, even past his prime as a King, is really unprecedented till the present day.

 

[seventieslord]

Gretzky with the Kings, -5.

Dionne with the Kings, +105.

It is absolutely worth mentioning that Gretzky was only a -5 on a team that was +11 during his time there, and that Dionne was +105 on a team that was -238 over 12 seasons. However, there are mitigating factors affecting this as well. Gretzky was able to carry lesser linemates, like Granato, Kudelski, etc. This was good for those players, coaches thought it was best for the team, but it wasn't necessarily best for Gretzky's numbers. But Dionne had the benefit of a stacked line during his most dominant seasons. You see this happen sometimes in situations where teams put all their eggs in one basket. Take a look at the seasonal +/- in 79, 80 and 81. There's the Triple Crown Line, and then there's everyone else. Take a look at this: Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

It had the opposite effect that it had on Gretzky. Made Dionne look great, but the team was worse off. Perhaps if they spread the three best scorers throughout the lineup they would have been a better team.

 

[Normand Lacombe]

Bobby Clarke is the greatest Flyer of all time without a doubt. Say what you want about Clarke being dirty, but you would want Clarke on your team. Clarke had a longer peak than runner up Bernie Parent. Had Parent not sustained that neck injury that cut short his remarkable peak, a strong case could be made for Parent.

Remove either one of Clarke and Parent, the Flyers never win a Cup. They would have been a richer mans version of the St. Louis Blues of the late 1960's.

 

[The Panther]

Gretzky with the Kings, -5.

Dionne with the Kings, +105.

How'd Dionne do in the playoffs again?

To be honest, I might take Robitaille as the "greatest" LA King. He sits 1st in Kings' goals, 2nd in points (though Hockey Ref's sketchy 'adjusted points' system has him 1 point ahead of Dionne!), and ahead of Dionne in games played (though Brown, as of last year, and Dave Taylor are ahead of him there).

 

[Pominville Knows]

Is Kopitar the number one slovenian by now or do we wait until he has a full body of work?
Yup... Piece of work that one.

 

[VanIslander]

Is Kopitar the number one slovenian by now or do we wait until he has a full body of work?
Yup... Piece of work that one.

He's worth a bottle of zganje.

But the real question is: Is the greatest Lithuanian Darius Kasparaitis?

 

[The Panther]

I'm fairly confident Rod Langway is the best defenceman born in Taiwan though Low-Xiao Shing has his supporters.

 

[VanIslander]

I'm fairly confident Rod Langway is the best defenceman born in Taiwan though Low-Xiao Shing has his supporters.

No, the American military base of the Formosa Liaison Command was as American territory as a U.S. embassy grounds in any country of the world. He was born a U.S. citizen.

 

[Theokritos]

No, the American military base of the Formosa Liaison Command was as American territory as a U.S. embassy grounds in any country of the world. He was born a U.S. citizen.

An US embassy ground is not US territory. Langway was both born in Taiwan and born a US citizen.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

How'd Dionne do in the playoffs again?

To be honest, I might take Robitaille as the "greatest" LA King. He sits 1st in Kings' goals, 2nd in points (though Hockey Ref's sketchy 'adjusted points' system has him 1 point ahead of Dionne!), and ahead of Dionne in games played (though Brown, as of last year, and Dave Taylor are ahead of him there).

Oh yah...….

 

[VanIslander]

An US embassy ground is not US territory.

Not technically owned, but the laws of the U.S. are in effect on the land, and permission has to be given the host country to violate the embassy's country's jurisdiction, or else the contractual relationship between the countries is null and void, as per the Vienna Convention.

MacInnis is 100% American as is anyone born in an American embassy or on an American military base.

 

[Voight]

Greatest Pred is easily Weber

Panther - Luongo (Barkov will surpass him tho)

 

[Theokritos]

Not technically owned, but the laws of the U.S. are in effect on the land, and permission has to be given the host country to violate the embassy's country's jurisdiction, or else the contractual relationship between the countries is null and void, as per the Vienna Convention.

MacInnis is 100% American as is anyone born in an American embassy or on an American military base.

Sure, that's not in question. Neither is Rod Langway's natural citizenship (=through birth). But he was indeed born in Taiwan.

 

[Pominville Knows]

MacInnis is 100% American as is anyone born in an American embassy or on an American military base.

It is however stipulated that for this to take effect a person must actually have this kind of american heritage...

 

[rfournier103]

I think that the Maple Leafs and Canadiens are the two toughest to pick.

The Canadiens have Richard, Beliveau, LaFleur, Dryden, and several others that would be the greatest of all time on most other teams.

Where even to start with the Maple Leafs? Apps? Sittler? Armstrong? Bower? Somebody else?

Habs and Leafs fans care to weigh in?

 

[Pominville Knows]

I think that the Maple Leafs and Canadiens are the two toughest to pick.

The Canadiens have Richard, Beliveau, LaFleur, Dryden, and several others that would be the greatest of all time on most other teams.

Where even to start with the Maple Leafs? Apps? Sittler? Armstrong? Bower? Somebody else?

Habs and Leafs fans care to weigh in?

For both teams put together, you can remove all but two of those players but still be short of at least one.
Unreal...

 

[solidmotion]

leafs: i would've said keon or kennedy, tho there are arguments for a bunch of others. either way the door is wide open for somebody on the team right now—the best it's been in generations—to take #1

habs: tons of greats but it's got to be beliveau

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Best Maple Leaf is Apps. Better in the regular season than Kennedy, better in the playoffs than Conacher. Only knock on him is that he retired relatively young.