The Grateful Dead : good or bad band?

[Drivesaitl]

I didn’t say that, but it’s not a relevant distraction from the topic anyway.

You verbatim stated this:

Yes, a lot of musicians are shitty people who play the "all the cool kids are doing it" card to promote shitty antisocial behavior for profit. That summarizes the music industry over the past 75 years.

You were intentionally engaging in false equivalency and I called it out and stated what the difference is.

Not sure how you don't get that the pushback to Grateful Deadhead that is commonplace in discussions is DUE To the kind of hyperbole and nonsense that gets spouted by them. I mean Garcia himself and Owlsley on record saying they are "bigger than the Beatles" That typifies the hype and of course theres reaction to it because its a ridiculous claim that cannot be substantiated in any way.

So that obfuscation like yours would respond that who's to say which is better; lol

 

[Drivesaitl]

Yes, the drug factor helped to raise the band in music sphere. Musically, I find they sucked and I'm not the only one saying it. Maybe it's not a coincidence among all my friends who listened music in the era they were popular, we shared the new stuff we discovered, we listened fusion jazz (Corea, Weather Report, Metheny) when rock was getting corporate prefabric commnercial stuff. We went to psychedelic german electronic music of Klauss Shulze and Jean-Michel Jarre. We listened to Allen Parsson Project, well not that good, lol. Oh I remember when Phil Collins played on that progressive rock experimental record called Marscape, omg, such memories. One of my friend and other pals were big fans of Zappa. So many records, his company was releasing a lot of studio practice stuff but fans like me enjoyed it anyway. And then came the 80's with so many good stuff.

All my friends had a certain taste in music and some played in bands that were pretty good. I couldn't because I never learned an instrument at the time. But I was an illustrator. I made the comics involving students and teachers in high school.

All those years, all those musicians and music fans I met, never someone told me I should listen to Grateful Dead, except later age 42 a co-worker told me if I like folk rock the GD did one or 2 good albums and I got American Beauty in mp3 files. He said the music is good on this album, this is their very best, the main problem in that group is nobody is a good singer. It get worse when they do harmonies. But on American Beauty they had help from Crosby Stills and Nash.

WE had similar backgrounds it seems. I'm not accomplished myself but many of my friends were in bands and were quite adept at playing and toured. Being around bands you get to follow more about the artistry, the musical path and what it takes to get fluent on any instrument. In these kinds of circles theres always certain musical artists that are more favored For instance Genesis, Winwood, here in Canada Rush, Led Zep, APP, ELP Tangerine Dream, Beatles later works, etc.

On a hunch that you haven't heard it this was a band that got a lot of focus in the 70's/80's among drummers. Theres some really difficult play and timing in these and it gives listeners, or even other posters an idea of what makes a piece difficult to play, vs something that a normal player could play.

This is one of those types of albums that musicians tended to like. Whole album is good and very much ELP inspired:

 

[Drivesaitl]

dead heads have a very low bar if they think garcia is a guitar god.

read somewhere that garcia was influenced by al dimeola, who was the yngwie malsteen of the 70's. the guitar players i listen to that were influenced by dimeola you can hear it in their playing. garcia not so much. awful dribs and drabs here and there.

i saw some mentions of spirit.... the band i believe are well known for forming the template of stairway to heaven. got a line on you is a cool tune. i will further check them out. thanx

Spirit have a diverse and interesting catalog. A hook point to get into the band is the 12 Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus album which demonstrates the virtuosity and range of the band. Rockers to ballads to meditative and mind blowing classics.

Once you get a taste get into the rest of their catalog. They were also good live. They were just great musicians who played with several artists. As mentioned Randy played with Jimi Hendrix, Andes played with Heart and other bands. They all moved on to different things and could play varied music and genres. The Jazz fusion from the Drummer, Ed Cassidy, is really interesting and signature unique. He played rock, as well as diverse catalog with Ry Cooder, Taj Mahal. He was described as a drummer force of nature that could play any genre.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

WE had similar backgrounds it seems. I'm not accomplished myself but many of my friends were in bands and were quite adept at playing and toured. Being around bands you get to follow more about the artistry, the musical path and what it takes to get fluent on any instrument. In these kinds of circles theres always certain musical artists that are more favored For instance Genesis, Winwood, here in Canada Rush, Led Zep, APP, ELP Tangerine Dream, Beatles later works, etc.

On a hunch that you haven't heard it this was a band that got a lot of focus in the 70's/80's among drummers. Theres some really difficult play and timing in these and it gives listeners, or even other posters an idea of what makes a piece difficult to play, vs something that a normal player could play.

This is one of those types of albums that musicians tended to like. Whole album is good and very much ELP inspired:

That really sounds like ELP. I used to like that kind of music a lot. The same time I liked Gentle Giant with Genesis, but also Pink Floyd a lot, Zappa, ELO, Supertramp. In french Canada we liked groups such as Harmonium, Morse Code, Beau Dommage and Octobre. Everywhere on the planet I think there was prog rock groups who were kings and fighting discomania. Then came the Punk music, followed by New Wave. A lot of groups became obsolete in 1980.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

dead heads have a very low bar if they think garcia is a guitar god.

read somewhere that garcia was influenced by al dimeola, who was the yngwie malsteen of the 70's. the guitar players i listen to that were influenced by dimeola you can hear it in their playing. garcia not so much. awful dribs and drabs here and there.

i saw some mentions of spirit.... the band i believe are well known for forming the template of stairway to heaven. got a line on you is a cool tune. i will further check them out. thanx

The other meastro of guitar that influenced many guitarists in the 70's was John Mclaughlin. Also founder of the group Mahavishnu Orchestra.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

The other meastro of guitar that influenced many guitarists in the 70's was John Mclaughlin. Also founder of the group Mahavishnu Orchestra.

a lot of people don't know this but he gave jimmy page some lessons back around 1965.

 

[TheAngryHank]

Not my cup of tea.

 

[VMBM]

I'm trying to fathom how somebody could like Genesis and not like ELP. heh. Why not like both? Maybe you haven't given ELP a chance.

For starters, ELP didn't have Tony Banks as a composer (BLP?)... Or Peter Gabriel.

During my prog rock phase in the mid-1990s, I had their first album and Tarkus, and even though I liked bits of them, I was somewhat underwhelmed overall; the best Genesis, King Crimson and Yes albums were just superior imo, composition-wise. But you're right, maybe I should give another try.

 

[Mike C]

I don’t know how you can see 50,000 people grooving to a song and think “this isn’t about the music”. It definitely is about the music. People look for different things in their experience of music, though.

I like the Dead. Like Weir's songs more than Jerry's and Lesh's "Box of Rain " is superb.

The live shows were fun. Great people watching

 

[Mike C]

For starters, ELP didn't have Tony Banks as a composer (BLP?)... Or Peter Gabriel.

During my prog rock phase in the mid-1990s, I had their first album and Tarkus, and even though I liked bits of them, I was somewhat underwhelmed overall; the best Genesis, King Crimson and Yes albums were just superior imo, composition-wise. But you're right, maybe I should give another try.

For starters, ELP didn't have Tony Banks as a composer (BLP?)... Or Peter Gabriel.

During my prog rock phase in the mid-1990s, I had their first album and Tarkus, and even though I liked bits of them, I was somewhat underwhelmed overall; the best Genesis, King Crimson and Yes albums were just superior imo, composition-wise. But you're right, maybe I should give another try.

Rest assured, you'll get your money's worth. Greatest show in Heaven, Hell or Earth

 

[tarheelhockey]

You were intentionally engaging in false equivalency and I called it out and stated what the difference is.

Sure.

I, not a fan of this band, am intentionally distorting an internet argument to ensure that internet points are scored in their favor.

You have caught me in the act through your superior powers of deduction, and are a hero to the musical community.

The Grateful Dead, a notoriously anti-social band who sucked harder than any other band has ever sucked, are now vanquished by this decisive argument. Thank god for this thread, which exposed their true selves despite my underhanded attempts to obfuscate the pure objective truth about their musical value.

Is that what you needed to hear? Can we move on to a real conversation now?

 

[#37]

The Brit explosion of music world over occurred due to what a hotbed of artists were growing up in the London and Brit scene.

These people furthering the usage of really harmful substances were a menace of the era.

This is great. On the one hand you are telling us you hate The Greatful Dead because they furthered the useage of LSD and other drugs, while on the other hand you are telling us what great artists The Beatles and Pink Floyd were... who both did as much to further the use of LSD.... Hypocrite much?

 

[#37]

This thread is a train-wreck and a colossal waste of time... Ironically, kind of like a jam band on an off night.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

This is great. On the one hand you are telling us you hate The Greatful Dead because they furthered the useage of LSD and other drugs, while on the other hand you are telling us what great artists The Beatles and Pink Floyd were... who both did as much to further the use of LSD.... Hypocrite much?

Beatles and Pink Floyd didn't have a sound engineer touring with them selling and giving acid pills, causing deaths and permanent harm to the fans who took these chemicals. He made these pills at a fast rate in his lab between touring. I have a cousin who is mentally unable to do anything since he took one of this pill. How many pills an human can take before his brain become forever severelly damaged?
Beatles said in interviews they took lsd a couple of times and they had to stop. As for Pink Floyd, their music was so far out in the tripping field, no drugs were required. My older brothers listened that music so much when I was 9 to 12, I understood and liked that music without any drugs.

The psychedelic era in music had a short life. That genre became redundant and cliché. Musicians had to work on a different canvas to express their creativity. Rolling Stones came back to basic Rock&Roll after two psychedelic albums that were borderline mediocre, except few songs. Beatles abandonned Psychedelic when they did the White album. Except no 9 who was an avant-garde piece unique of his kind. If the 2 mainstream groups abandoned psychedelic in 1968, that was a signal for other groups.

I think taking drugs was a must do thing between 1966 and 1968 for many artists but the most intelligents artists had to stop taking drugs for their personal health and to survive. The deaths of Morisson, Hendrix, Janis and Jones scared them. Also Syd Barrett who became unable to do anything., So it was death or brain death. But for Grateful Death culture, it wasn't. They kept that culture of heavy drugs as a lifestyle and superior awareness. They are drug elitists.

This thread is a train-wreck and a colossal waste of time... Ironically, kind of like a jam band on an off night.

Discuss about Taylor Swift then. You don't have to think much, follow the crowd.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

a lot of people don't know this but he gave jimmy page some lessons back around 1965.

Vic Flick too gave some tips to Page. They were both studio session guitarists.
David McCallum (aka Illya Kuryakin and Donald "Ducky' Mallard in NCIS) told Page he can use an bow on a guitar to have a special sound. The father of McCallum was a first violoncist for the Philarmonic Orchestra of London.
On Daze and Confused, Page use a bow.

 

[Drivesaitl]

This is great. On the one hand you are telling us you hate The Greatful Dead because they furthered the useage of LSD and other drugs, while on the other hand you are telling us what great artists The Beatles and Pink Floyd were... who both did as much to further the use of LSD.... Hypocrite much?

The difference has already been explained multiple times. Learn to read.

Owlsley was even dosing people LSD without their consent or knowledge or will. He did this for his own kicks and with zero concern over the harm it did others. Thats the extent it went. Before weighing in maybe have some idea about what actually occurred.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Sure.

I, not a fan of this band, am intentionally distorting an internet argument to ensure that internet points are scored in their favor.

You have caught me in the act through your superior powers of deduction, and are a hero to the musical community.

The Grateful Dead, a notoriously anti-social band who sucked harder than any other band has ever sucked, are now vanquished by this decisive argument. Thank god for this thread, which exposed their true selves despite my underhanded attempts to obfuscate the pure objective truth about their musical value.

Is that what you needed to hear? Can we move on to a real conversation now?

You seem triggered. The convo here on Grateful Dead is essentially the same convo that occurs any independent site online that isn't loaded with deadheads.

Again, because you're missing it if your band was unconscionable enough to regularly dose people acid, and supply the same wittingly or unknowingly at concerts the same band deserves scorn. Really they deserved to be in jail.

If the same band is saying they're "bigger than the Beatles" they deserve to be mocked to the end of time. Which is the basic dynamic that is pushback to Deadhead inanity. You won't have to look far for such comments and when Deadheads aren't saying Grateful dead are the biggest, most important band in history they're saying they are the most relevant American musical artist in history. Those comments are all out there. Artists like Beatles, Stones, Elvis, Dylan etc never existed I guess..

Hey. I've specifically asked multiple times what tracks I should listen to to get a different impression, what catalog Dead have that is any good. I'm met with replies like you had to see them, you had to take acid to "get it" and "turn on" and the music can't speak on its own, even though the essence is sound and with music being an auditory art.

For those reading please recommend some tracks other than Grey. Recommend some album beyond American Beauty which is frankly plodding.

 

[Xelebes]

It wasn't until the 1980s when consent, especially medical consent, became a big issue, or atleast a legally recognised thing that had to be clamped down on. Prior to that, you weren't going to get a judge to budge on that. The judge was only going to move on hey, did you possess or were you distributing?

 

[tarheelhockey]

You seem triggered.

I’m not triggered, I’m just making note of you being in this thread saying things like “learn to read” and accusing people of making false arguments.

If you’re going to be in here acting like that, especially over something as trivial as taste in bands, you’re going to get pushback. There are no internet points to be scored here, it’s just a rude thing to do.

The convo here on Grateful Dead is essentially the same convo that occurs any independent site online that isn't loaded with deadheads.

Again, because you're missing it if your band was unconscionable enough to regularly dose people acid, and supply the same wittingly or unknowingly at concerts the same band deserves scorn. Really they deserved to be in jail.

If the same band is saying they're "bigger than the Beatles" they deserve to be mocked to the end of time. Which is the basic dynamic that is pushback to Deadhead inanity. You won't have to look far for such comments and when Deadheads aren't saying Grateful dead are the biggest, most important band in history they're saying they are the most relevant American musical artist in history. Those comments are all out there. Artists like Beatles, Stones, Elvis, Dylan etc never existed I guess..

Hey. I've specifically asked multiple times what tracks I should listen to to get a different impression, what catalog Dead have that is any good. I'm met with replies like you had to see them, you had to take acid to "get it" and "turn on" and the music can't speak on its own, even though the essence is sound and with music being an auditory art.

For those reading please recommend some tracks other than Grey. Recommend some album beyond American Beauty which is frankly plodding.

Again, this is no different from dozens/hundreds of bands who do awful things like bringing minor fans backstage for sex, which was a routine feature of that era as well. In the context of this thread it’s irrelevant if the Dead once did things that deserved criminal charges. That sucks and deserves to be condemned, but it’s not a basis for saying they sucked as a band which is what we’re trying to discuss here.

They once said an arrogant thing? Ok. Welcome to the music industry, where the Beatles in turn claimed to be bigger than Jesus Christ. That’s not relevant to whether the Beatles were a good band.

This isn’t a moral discussion. The one thing you have said which was relevant is that you find the music plodding. Cool, that’s your opinion and it’s valid. Others feel differently which is also valid. Folk music exists with a different set of criteria than the rock genre, so you and they can both be right at the same time.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I’m not triggered, I’m just making note of you being in this thread saying things like “learn to read” and accusing people of making false arguments.

If you’re going to be in here acting like that, especially over something as trivial as taste in bands, you’re going to get pushback. There are no internet points to be scored here, it’s just a rude thing to do.



Again, this is no different from dozens/hundreds of bands who do awful things like bringing minor fans backstage for sex, which was a routine feature of that era as well. In the context of this thread it’s irrelevant if the Dead once did things that deserved criminal charges. That sucks and deserves to be condemned, but it’s not a basis for saying they sucked as a band which is what we’re trying to discuss here.

They once said an arrogant thing? Ok. Welcome to the music industry, where the Beatles in turn claimed to be bigger than Jesus Christ. That’s not relevant to whether the Beatles were a good band.

This isn’t a moral discussion. The one thing you have said which was relevant is that you find the music plodding. Cool, that’s your opinion and it’s valid. Others feel differently which is also valid. Folk music exists with a different set of criteria than the rock genre, so you and they can both be right at the same time.

I was rude to the poster in response to labeling of hypocrite. I've never seen the other poster before and they got what they gave. Kind of how it works in exchanges.

Weird that you didn't notice the other poster INITIATING being impolite.

As far as Grateful Dead I commented more than just saying their music was dull and plodding. They lack memorable songs, its just pretty basic folk music and that as a form isn't a very developed entity. Indeed kings like Bob Dylan strayed from it. You know, that guy that could write anthemic songs you remember the rest of your life.

Interesting thing is by the time something like Woodstock came about, or Isle of Wight, or even Monterrey Pop the folk acts like Baez and Grateful Dead were among the most boring acts on any bill. Its OK though as people needed some time to catch up on some sleep. But there isn't a pundit that wouldn't say that Grateful Deads set at Woodstock was awful. They even spiked Carlos Santana and others without their awareness. The kind of shits that Owsley and Garcia were. Not sure about you but somebody like that would never be invited back again, by anybody I ever knew. Feel fortunate that you never knew tools like that. That you didn't grow up with idiots that would do something like spike somebodies drink with LSD.

At the same time Steppenwolf had their brilliant and timely song "The Pusher" just so people could more easily beware the drug predators and cretins in their midst.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

At the same time Steppenwolf had their brilliant and timely song "The Pusher" just so people could more easily beware the drug predators and cretins in their midst.

But the pusher don't care
Ah, if you live or if you die
God damn, The Pusher
God damn, I say The Pusher
I said God damn, God damn The Pusher man

If the message is not understood, I mean, a dude who doesn't understrand have his brain dead.

It's too bad this thread deflected on the drug issue with GD but it was unavoidable. I discovered the drug market of Owsley the next day I started the thread. It didn't like their music, not to the point to say it's torture music, no. But I never undertood their popularity. I think they are even more popular than Doobie Brothers, America or Paul Simon. Geez, I like Joni Mitchell, Carole King, James Taylor and Delaney and Bonnie more than the Deads.

The song the pusher was either about Owsley or Jean Debreteuil, the pusher who gave lethal dose to Morrison, Hendrix and probably Janis. He died of overdose two weeks after giving the lethal dose to Morisson. He was Marianne Faithfull friend, she talk about him in her book. He was friend with the driver of the Marocco diplomat, so he had access to heroin by diplomatic suitcase. He travelled to London, California campus, etc. He gave pure heroin to rock stars of both California and London. He was the steady pusher of Keith Richards, who survived. Nothing could kill KR.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Depends on what drugs you are on when listening to em’.

 

[tarheelhockey]

As far as Grateful Dead I commented more than just saying their music was dull and plodding. They lack memorable songs, its just pretty basic folk music and that as a form isn't a very developed entity. Indeed kings like Bob Dylan strayed from it. You know, that guy that could write anthemic songs you remember the rest of your life.

Interesting thing is by the time something like Woodstock came about, or Isle of Wight, or even Monterrey Pop the folk acts like Baez and Grateful Dead were among the most boring acts on any bill. Its OK though as people needed some time to catch up on some sleep.

The bolded is what it comes down to. Folk music, jam music, even the early blues or early punk, these are genres that are fundamentally not trying to be developed or orchestrated at the level of pop-rock. The whole point of these genres is organic, often spontaneous expression. In the case of jam bands it’s closely tied to a shared collective experience (with or without drugs) and in the specific case of the Grateful Dead it came out of the acid-heavy experimental drug culture of the 60s and 70s. If you’re listening for a developed studio-friendly sound, you are all but guaranteed to be disappointed… which is fine, as every genre doesn’t need to be everything to everyone.

There are lots of forms of folk that I find boring or unlistenable. I just take that as a “me” thing, not a “them” thing. The moralistic dimension of whether the artist is a good person is a whole other topic.

 

[Shareefruck]

The bolded is what it comes down to. Folk music, jam music, even the early blues or early punk, these are genres that are fundamentally not trying to be developed or orchestrated at the level of pop-rock. The whole point of these genres is organic, often spontaneous expression. In the case of jam bands it’s closely tied to a shared collective experience (with or without drugs) and in the specific case of the Grateful Dead it came out of the acid-heavy experimental drug culture of the 60s and 70s. If you’re listening for a developed studio-friendly sound, you are all but guaranteed to be disappointed… which is fine, as every genre doesn’t need to be everything to everyone.

There are lots of forms of folk that I find boring or unlistenable. I just take that as a “me” thing, not a “them” thing. The moralistic dimension of whether the artist is a good person is a whole other topic.

That's fair, but I also don't think everybody necessarily has to see it that way, or ought to (not saying you were suggesting that). You could also actually see less value in things that don't sound developed/memorable/timeless in isolation, be content to be all but guaranteed to be disappointed by the cultures/genres that focus on the style/approach that you see less worth in, and reasonably think less of them as a consequence of it.

I mean, there's a reason elevator music (or rave music, or any number of things) is the way that it is, it serves a function that might be appreciated, and hypothetically, if someone happens to be really into it, it's also technically a different strokes/preference thing, but surely you can still make harsh/dismissive value judgements about it that go beyond that without being out of pocket.

 

[tarheelhockey]

That's fair, but I also don't think everybody necessarily has to see it that way, or ought to (don't know if you were suggesting that). You could also actually see less value in things that don't sound developed/memorable/timeless in isolation, be content to be all but guaranteed to be disappointed by the cultures/genres that focus on the style/approach that you see less worth in, and reasonably think less of them as a consequence of it.

I mean, there's a reason elevator music (or rave music, or any number of things) is the way that it is, it serves a function that might be appreciated, and hypothetically, if someone happens to be really into it, it's also technically a different strokes/preference thing, but you can still make harsh/dismissive value judgements that go beyond that without being out of pocket.

That's all fair as well. I think the harsh/dismissive judgments are where I get off board. It's fair game to have a particular taste, but it is after all just a personal taste. I definitely don't appreciate certain genres, but I don't pretend to think it's because I've somehow cracked the code. I just don't care for them, the same way I don't care for pickles. Just a flavor that strikes me wrong. Unless I'm being facetious, I would never tell someone that pickles are the actual worst food on earth bar none.

To me, the Dead are a manifestly ordinary band among the major rock bands. They're not great, they're just fine. It's the elevator music of folk rock. The only thing I've seen in this thread to justify them being horrible is a moralistic tone that strikes me as irrelevant, and that's about where we got off track.

BRB, opening a thread on "best and worst elevator music artists".