The Goaltender Home Page Official HELP!!! Thread (1984-85 edition)

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Doctor No, Jul 9, 2007.

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  1. Doctor No

    Doctor No Registered User

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    Okay, for those of you who don't really know what I do as a hobby, I reconstruct goaltender game logs for National Hockey League teams.

    For instance, if you go to Martin Brodeur's page on my website:
    http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/brodeurm.html

    At the bottom, you will see every National Hockey League game in which he has appeared, along with various details about the game, opponents, and what-not.

    Currently, I've worked my way back to the 1984-85 season (one of my favourites). Patrick Roy's debut, Pelle Lindbergh's great Vezina campaign, Gilles Meloche's performance against the Blues in the playoffs, and fun names like Chris Clifford, Cleon Daskalakis, Rick Heinz, Brian Ford, and Hannu Kamppuri.

    The problem is that I do all of my work with newspaper microfilm, and living in the great city of Denver/Boulder, I don't have access to all of the best. Currently I use various combinations of the Los Angeles Times (surprisingly good!), the Washington Post, the New York Times, USA Today, and the Toronto Star (online).

    Unfortunately, these papers don't always consider the hockey research twenty years in the future when printing their boxscores. Empty-net goals? :help: When two goaltenders appear in a game for the same team, how many goals :help:, shots :help:, and time :help: did each play? Occasionally, they forget to mention that a second goaltender appeared (sigh).

    So here's where I could use your help. I'll pay you what I'm currently paying myself (and a bargain at half the price!), but I can offer a "thank you" on my homepage. Generally, I need proof for these things, so if you can cite your source I would appreciate it greatly.

    Local newspapers are a good place to look (especially if one of the teams playing is in the home city of the newspaper). The Hockey News would be phenomenal (they used to have boxscores in their print edition, n case you don't recall). Media guides are great (I have CHI, LA, WPG, TOR, PHI and VAN in my possession).

    Other than that, any help would be just that...very helpful. Thanks!
     
    Last edited by moderator Bear of Bad News: Jul 9, 2007
  2. Doctor No

    Doctor No Registered User

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    MAJOR ISSUES (regular season):
    October 23, 1984 (Philadelphia 7, at Minnesota 2): Don Beaupre replaced Mike Sands at some point in this game (Sands had 20 saves, Beaupre had 12 saves). How many goals did each allow, when did the switch occur, and who got the loss? I'm assuming that Sands played the first 26:51 and was 20/24 (with the loss), and Beaupre played the final 33:09 and was 12/15.
    October 23, 1984 (Vancouver 5, at NY Islanders 6): Kelly Hrudey (7 saves) replaced Rollie Melanson (12 saves) during this game. When, how many shots did each face, and who earned the win? Hrudey earned the win according to the Vancouver media guide, coming in at about the 32 minute mark. Melanson was 12/16, and Hrudey was 7/8. If anyone can find this game and see if the fourth goal was scored at around the 8:00 mark of the second, then I could use that time as a proxy for the goal change.
    October 24, 1984 (Vancouver 3, at Chicago 9): Richard Brodeur and Frank Caprice both played (Brodeur allowed the five five goals, Caprice allowed the last four). How many shots did each face and when did the switch occur (at about 36 minutes into the game)?
    November 6, 1984 (St. Louis 3, at NY Islanders 6): I believe that Mike Liut and Rick Wamsley both played in this game (although my notes say that Liut may have played the entire game). When did Wamsley come in for Liut, how many shots did each face, how many goals did each allow, and who got the loss?
    November 15, 1984 (Edmonton 2, at Calgary 6): At what point did Grant Fuhr replace Andy Moog?
    December 15, 1984 (Quebec 3, at New Jersey 8): Mario Gosselin replaced Richard Sevigny in this game. How long for each, how many goals against for each, how many shots faced for each, and who got the loss?
    December 19, 1984 (Chicago 3, at Buffalo 6): Murray Bannerman and Warren Skorodenski both played. How long for each, how many goals against for each, how many shots faced for each, and who got the loss?
    December 19, 1984 (Boston 5, at Hartford 6): Cleon Daskalakis replaced Pete Peeters. When did this happen? (42:08 into the game. Peeters 10/16, Daskalakis 2/2)
    February 6, 1985 (Edmonton 2, at Winnipeg 6): Which Edmonton goaltender played in this one (and if more than one did - which I fear happened - then I have the other typical questions in this section)? (Moog played, and stopped 28 of 34 shots)
    February 8, 1985 (Los Angeles 1, at Washington 6): How many shots/saves for Bob Janecyk? I think 21 saves on 27 shots. How many shots/saves for Pat Riggin? I think 31 saves on 32 shots. (Riggin 26/27, Janecyk 26/32)
    February 14, 1985 (Toronto 3, at St. Louis 5): Ken Wregget replaced Rick St. Croix at 8:17 of the second period, allowing the first four goals. Wregget allowed the fifth goal. How many shots did each face?
    February 17, 1985 (Detroit 4, at Chicago 4): Bannerman and Skorodenski both played. How long for each, how many goals against for each, how many shots faced for each, and who got the loss (25 saves on 29 shots total for both)?

    MAJOR ISSUES (playoffs):
    February 17, 1985 (Detroit 4, at Chicago 4): Bannerman and Skorodenski both played. How long for each, how many goals against for each, how many shots faced for each, and who got the loss (25 saves on 29 shots total for both)? [see post #46]
    April 10, 1985 (Detroit 5, at Chicago 9): Warren Skorodenski replaced Murray Bannerman at some point in this game. Combined, they stopped 46 of 51 shots. How many did each stop, and how many did each face? When did the switch occur? Who got the win? (see post #39)
    April 10, 1985 (Detroit 5, at Chicago 9): Corrado Micalef replaced Greg Stefan at some point in this game. Combined, they stopped 21 of 30 shots. How many did each stop, and how many did each face? When did the switch occur? Who got the win? (see post #39)



    MINOR ISSUES (regular season):
    October 16, 1984 (New Jersey 4, at NY Islanders 6): Hannu Kamppuri ENG? (yep!)
    October 24, 1984 (Boston 4, at St. Louis 1): Rick Wamsley ENG? (yep!)
    November 6, 1984 (Montreal 2, at Detroit 4): Steve Penney ENG? (yep!)
    November 7, 1984 (Buffalo 9, Minnesota 6): Don Beaupre ENG?
    November 14, 1984 (NY Rangers 4, at Chicago 6): John Vanbiesbrouck ENG?
    November 21, 1984 (Winnipeg 5, at Edmonton 7): Marc Behrend ENG? (nope!)
    November 23, 1984 (Philadelphia 4, at Buffalo 2): Tom Barrasso ENG? (yep!)
    November 24, 1984 (New Jersey 5, at Pittsburgh 3): Denis Herron ENG?
    December 5, 1984 (St. Louis 4, at Pittsburgh 7): Mike Liut ENG?
    December 5, 1984 (NY Islanders 4, at Edmonton 6): Billy Smith ENG?
    December 7, 1984 (Minnesota 3, at Edmonton 6): Rollie Melanson ENG? (possibly two ENG?)
    December 22, 1984 (Boston 4, at Toronto 6): Pete Peeters ENG? (nope!)
    December 22, 1984 (NY Rangers 5, at New Jersey 3): Glenn Resch ENG?
    December 26, 1984 (NY Rangers 2, at Detroit 5): John Vanbiesbrouck ENG?
    December 27, 1984 (Montreal 5, at Quebec 3): Dan Bouchard ENG? (yep!)
    December 30, 1984 (Boston 5, at Winnipeg 3): Marc Behrend ENG? (yep!)
    January 9, 1985 (Vancouver 4, at Pittsburgh 7): Richard Brodeur ENG? (yep!)
    January 10, 1985 (St. Louis 5, at Minnesota 3): Rollie Melanson ENG? [nope!]
    January 13, 1985 (Detroit 2, at Quebec 6): Eddie Mio ENG?
    January 19, 1985 (Buffalo 2, at Hartford 0): Greg Millen ENG?
    January 27, 1985 (NY Islanders 2, at Washington 5): Kelly Hrudey ENG?
    February 5, 1985 (Washington 4, at Toronto 1): Tim Bernhardt ENG? (yep!)
    February 6, 1985 (Buffalo 3, at Minnesota 1): Don Beaupre ENG?
    February 7, 1985 (Pittsburgh 3, at New Jersey 6): Roberto Romano ENG?
    February 19, 1985 (New Jersey 5, at Vancouver 7): Hannu Kamppuri ENG? (yep!)
    February 19, 1985 (Montreal 5, at St. Louis 2): Mike Liut ENG?
    February 20, 1985 (Calgary 3, at Pittsburgh 6): Reggie Lemelin ENG?
    February 22, 1985 (Quebec 3, at Edmonton 6): Mario Gosselin ENG?
    February 23, 1985 (Pittsburgh 3, at Minnesota 1): Don Beaupre ENG?
    February 23, 1985 (Quebec 7, at Vancouver 5): Richard Brodeur ENG? (yep!)
    February 23, 1985 (Winnipeg 4, at Montreal 6): Brian Hayward ENG? (nope!)
    February 23, 1985 (Toronto 4, at Detroit 2): Greg Stefan ENG? (nope!)
    March 3, 1985 (St. Louis 2, at Chicago 5): Greg Millen ENG? (yep!)
    March 13, 1985 (Buffalo 4, at Vancouver 6): Bob Sauve ENG? (yep!)
    March 13, 1985 (Philadephia 5, at NY Rangers 2): John Vanbiesbrouck ENG? (nope!)
    March 14, 1985 (Winnipeg 4, at Montreal 1): Steve Penney ENG? (nope!)
    March 17, 1985 (Chicago 6, at Vancouver 4): Richard Brodeur ENG? (yep!)
    March 22, 1985 (Chicago 3, at Calgary 1): Reggie Lemelin ENG? (yep!)
    March 24, 1985 (NY Islanders 5, at NY Rangers 2): Glen Hanlon ENG?
    March 27, 1985 (Winnipeg 5, at Vancouver 3): Richard Brodeur ENG? (nope!)
    April 6, 1985 (Buffalo 5, at Toronto 2): Allan Bester ENG? (nope!)

    MINOR ISSUES (playoffs):
    April 11, 1985 (NY Rangers 1, at Philadelphia 3): Glen Hanlon ENG? (nope!)
    April 14, 1985 (Quebec 4, at Buffalo 7): Dan Bouchard ENG?
    April 14, 1985 (Washington 4, at NY Islanders 6): Al Jensen ENG? (yep!)

    ET CETERA:
    February 12, 1985: At what point during the All-Star Game did Lindbergh and Fuhr replace Barrasso and Moog?
     
    Last edited by moderator Irish Blues: Oct 14, 2007
  3. Doctor No

    Doctor No Registered User

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    I'll addend the list as I find new things (mainly things where totals don't add up to the published season totals), and I'll note items that have been solved in red font.

    Thanks to all for your help - and if you're wondering why I'm "like that", this thread might help to explain it. :)

    Also, any good talk about the 1984-85 season is fine by me here. Have at it! :handclap:
     
  4. reckoning

    reckoning Registered User

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    The Globe & Mail summary for that game says Moog and that he faced 34 shots.

    For trying to determine what point in the game a switch took place, every Tuesday the major papers would print a statistics summary which would have every goalies minutes played up to that point. So if you looked the difference in a goalies totals from one week to the next, then subtract the other games from that week where you know the goalie played the full game from his total, what's left should tell you how many minutes each goalie played in that game.
     
  5. saskganesh

    saskganesh Registered User

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    the Winnipeg Free Press had good habits with boxscores back in the day.

    can you get microfilm in interlibrary loan? I know not every library does this, but some do.

    http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/info/archive/index.html ; Library of Congress and Duke University and most Canadian post secondary institutions are listed..

    on another note ever see http://www.newspaperarchive.com/; its only 9$ a month, and it has many papers from back in the day...

    Ps: neat hobby!
     
  6. MiamiScreamingEagles

    MiamiScreamingEagles A Fistful of Dollars

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    I'm not sure if it helps but the 1984 date (involving Glen Hanlon, the Flyers and Rangers) listed under "Minor Issues (Playoffs)" should be 1985.

    Edit: In Jay Greenberg's Full Spectrum, he mentions that Sinisalo scored, off a 2-on-1 pass from Ron Sutter, between Hanlon's legs to give the Flyers a 3-1 lead
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2007
  7. Doctor No

    Doctor No Registered User

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    Good catch - thanks!

    And you're absolutely correct about the Tuesday summaries - I'm hoping to use them as a last resort, as I've found more than enough typos in them to dissuade me from doing otherwise.
     
  8. Doctor No

    Doctor No Registered User

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    Thanks!

    ILL is pretty good, although it seems cumbersome when I usually only need it for one stat or something. If The Hockey News were available, then that'd be something. :amazed:

    I'll check out newspaperarchive.com; a few years ago, the coverage wasn't so good, but hopefully they've added some papers to the mix. At $9/month, you can't beat the price!
     
  9. Doctor No

    Doctor No Registered User

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    Excellent - thank you!
     
  10. MiamiScreamingEagles

    MiamiScreamingEagles A Fistful of Dollars

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    Here is some info from games in December 1984:

    12/19/84 -- Boston 5-Hartford 6. Peeters was replaced after giving up the 6th goal -- all against him -- on the 16th shot by the Whalers. I don't have more info than that. After the game, Boston coach Gerry Cheevers called Dave Lumley "a coward" and "a chicken" for injuring Ray Bourque (eye) with a high stick.

    12/22/84 -- Dan Daoust scored on a breakaway at the 18:41 mark that beat Peeters under the crossbar.

    12/27/84 -- Deblois scored an ENG in Montreal's 5-3 at Quebec.

    12/30/84 -- Steve Kasper scored an ENG with 2 seconds to play.
     
  11. Hockey Outsider

    Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    I'll see what I can find about the games involving Montreal in the local library.
     
  12. flyershistory

    flyershistory Registered User

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    At my website (www.flyershistory.com) I have all the game summaries for all the Flyers games and I have ENG and shot splits for pretty much all the games ... I know that's the case for Flyers goalies - there might be one or two opponent's goalie (since 1967) that I wasn't able to get. This data is based on the Flyers actual scoresheets for the most part.
     
  13. Doctor No

    Doctor No Registered User

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    Excellent - thank you! :handclap:
     
  14. Doctor No

    Doctor No Registered User

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    Much appreciated - thank you! :handclap:
     
  15. Doctor No

    Doctor No Registered User

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    You're absolutely right - easily the best resource for boxscores on the Internet (I wish there was one for every team). If I remember right, we collaborated previously on the 5/25/85 and 5/28/85 games (I know that I researched them for someone, and I had them prior to my detailed work on the 1984-85 season).

    My notes on the 10/23 game say that I don't trust your site 100% on that game for some reason - I don't have my detailed references here so I can't say why (it's possible that I was being neurotic when I wrote that. :biglaugh: ).

    Actually, looking at my own site I have to have a typo on there, because I have Mike Sands' 1984-85 season with zero decisions in three games (http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/sands.html), and I know that he earned losses in the 10/20/84 and 3/1/85 games. Of course, Ralph's site (hockeydb.com) also has him with zero decisions, but my team-by-team page for the North Stars (http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/nhl/minnesotanorthstars.html) has him at 0-3-0, and that has to be his totals in order to get the North Stars' decisions to total.

    That one's probably an error in Total Hockey, although I don't have my copy here so I can't check that.

    So back to the 10/23/84 game, I have Beaupre replacing Sands after Sands allowed four goals on 24 shots (which would give Sands the loss, which would match my Sands' decision totals). Your site gives Beaupre the start, and the loss (basically it flips the order of appearance for the North Stars goaltenders). Any ideas on this one?

    Also, on the November 23rd game, you don't list the Flyers' fourth goal as an empty-netter, but you list Barrasso's statistics implying that it was. The Flyers' 85-86 media guide implies that it was an empty-netter, so I'm going with that.

    Thanks! :handclap:
     
    Last edited by moderator Bear of Bad News: Jul 11, 2007
  16. MiamiScreamingEagles

    MiamiScreamingEagles A Fistful of Dollars

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  17. Doctor No

    Doctor No Registered User

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    Yeah, it's the only way his game log would balance - plus he played the entire 10/20 game, so unless they started awarding losses to players on the bench, my individual bio page is clearly wrong.

    Thanks!
     
  18. MiamiScreamingEagles

    MiamiScreamingEagles A Fistful of Dollars

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    I don't know if this helps but the Flyers' media guide for 1985-86 lists the GA Minnesota for 1984-85 this way:

    Beaupre 2 games - 7 GA 5.75 GAA 0-1-0
    Sands 1 game - 4 GA 8.89 GAA 0-1-0
    Meloche 2 games - 5 GA 3.75 GAA 0-1-0

    Total 3 games - 16 GA (zero ENG)
    (Flyers 3-0-0, 16 GFA, 4 GA)
     
  19. Doctor No

    Doctor No Registered User

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    That definitely jibes with what I have in my notes (is "jibes" a word?).

    I'm pretty certain that the totals on FlyersHistory.com are correct for that game, but that the order of goaltender appearance needs to be reversed (and the loss assigned to Sands).

    Thanks!
     
  20. MiamiScreamingEagles

    MiamiScreamingEagles A Fistful of Dollars

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    I think the word you are looking for is "agrees." :) Yes, "jibe" is a word, too.
     
  21. Doctor No

    Doctor No Registered User

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    Pulled a bunch of minutia from the media guides I have, and updated the post above to reflect new information.

    The cover of the Chicago 1985-86 media guide has to be the hokiest I've ever seen. It's a crowd shot of Chicago Stadium, and written underneath the railing between the upper and lower bowls is the following:

    "EDM. HAS GRETZKy, BUT CHgo. HAS FANS!"​

    Like it's a banner or something. But it's clearly photo-shopped in (even though photo-shopping had yet to be invented!).

    Even if it were a banner, what the hell does it mean anyhow? It can't mean that Chicago's fans are an effective counterattack to Gretzky, because this was after the Oilers dispatched the Blackhawks in the preceding conference finals.

    So it must be meant literally - that Edmonton has Gretzky, but Chicago has fans. And? Lots of teams had fans. I don't get it.
     
  22. Hockey Outsider

    Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    Here's what I've been able to gather from an online (text only) copy of the Montreal Gazette, a full-page copy of the Toronto Star, and a full-page copy of the Globe & Mail.

    ** I only have access to scoresheets (as opposed to game descriptions) from the Toronto Star. It appears that the Toronto Star never records empty-net goals for 1984-85.

    The Globe & Mail states "Bob Manno added an empty-net goal with 40 seconds to play to wrap up the victory". So, it was indeed an EN goal. (Globe & Mail, 7 November, 1984, page S4).

    (Trivia time: on 7 November, Mike Bossy was leading the NHL in scoring with 17 goals and 34 points in 13 games).

    Confirmed. "... Lucien DeBlois scored into an empty net in the last minute of play". The scoresheet shows that the goal came at 19:42. (Globe & Mail, 28 December, 1984, page M9).

    (Trivia note: #99 is leading the league in scoring with 99 points in 34 games).

    (According to a column from the paper, there were just ten 500-goal scorers in NHL history. 22 years later there are 29 additional 500-goal scorers. No wonder that mark has lost its luster).

    According to the Montreal Gazette, that "Ryan Walter closed out the scoring with fewer than two minutes remaining". They didn't say that it was an empty net goal, and, unfortunately, there is no further description of the goal. There's no definite proof that it was an empty-netter.

    There is no mention of Walter's goal in the write-up for the Globe & Mail. However, the score sheet shows that the goal was on the powerplay at 18:17 or 18:37 of the third.

    (Trivia: Edmonton has yet another dominant game. Gretzky scores 2 goals, 3 assists; Anderson and Kurri each get a hat trick.)

    I looked this up in the Toronto Star. Again, no indication that it was an ENG but Nilan scored the 6th Montreal goal at 18:50 of the third period.

    There is no write-up in the Globe & Mail but it confirms that the goal was at 18:50 of the third period.

    (Gretzky is now up to 170 pts in 62 games. Aside from Kurri, no other player in the league has even scored 100).

    Confirmed, the final goal was not an empty-netter.

    "Hawerchuk . . . whose two goals provided him with 45 thus far this season, matching the team record for goals he established during the 1981-82 season. Both were high shots and from some distance. Steve Penney caught a piece of the first, but Hawerchuk blew his second beyond him with only 26 second remaining in the game."

    The write-up also states that "The only Canadien to beat Hayward last night was Guy Carbonneau, who slipped a rebound beyond him with 65 seconds remaining in the first period but only after the Jets had leaped into a 3-0 lead." Therefore, Hawerchuk's final goal must have been the 4th and final in the game, since the other three Jets goals came in the first period.

    (An interesting note from one of the sports articles: "The Los Angeles Kings' Marcel Dionne became the only player in NHL history to score 40 goals in 10 consecutive seasons Wednesday night as the Kings and the Hartford Whalers skated to a 3-3 tie.")
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2007
  23. Doctor No

    Doctor No Registered User

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    Well-done, and thanks! I've got access to the Star's Pages From The Past, and they do seem to be a bit spotty with their coverage. Not sure why I expected more from a major Canadian newspaper, but they've always got some good anecdotes at least. :handclap:
     
  24. Doctor No

    Doctor No Registered User

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    Okay, here's my first major issue (and it may even be an issue with the official National Hockey League statistics from 1984-85. The joy of discovery!).

    According to my notes, Rick St. Croix appeared in twelve games for the 1984-85 Toronto Maple Leafs (poor guy!), recording two wins and nine losses (one no-decision).

    According to the official books such as Total Hockey et al, he does have a 2-9-0 record, but only appeared in eleven games.

    Interestingly enough, the Maple Leafs' media guide from the following season lists his season record with eleven games played. However, if you go through their team-versus-team totals, he has: 2 games against Boston, 1 game against Buffalo, 2 games against Chicago, 1 game against Hartford, 1 game against Minnesota, 1 game against New Jersey, 1 game against Philadelphia, 1 game against Pittsburgh, and 2 games against St. Louis. (Unless he played two opponents at the same time in some weird menage a trois), that's a total of twelve games played.

    Game by game, here's what I have for St. Croix:
    Code:
    [font=courier new]
    12/12/84    6-3 victory vs. Philadelphia 
    12/15/84    2-5 defeat vs. Pittsburgh
    12/17/84    2-3 defeat vs. St. Louis
    12/21/84    3-4 defeat at Chicago
    12/22/84    6-5 victory vs. Boston
    12/26/84    0-6 defeat at Buffalo
    12/27/84    1-4 defeat at New Jersey
    12/29/84    4-5 defeat vs. Chicago
    1/7/85      4-7 defeat vs. Hartford
    1/9/85      3-5 defeat at Boston (NO DECISION, replaced by Bernhardt after hamstring injury)
    2/14/85     3-5 defeat at St. Louis (replaced by Wregget after allowing four goals)
    4/3/85      7-9 defeat at Minnesota
    [/font]
    Note that my team-by-team totals match the team-by-team totals in the Leafs' media guide. According to my records, he received decisions in all games above except for the 1/9 game at Boston - the Toronto Star has several mentions of him appearing in that game and leaving early due to injury.

    So have I stumbled onto something here? Or in English, "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?" :D
     
  25. MiamiScreamingEagles

    MiamiScreamingEagles A Fistful of Dollars

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    I can confirm the St. Croix total against the Flyers through their media guide. The other TO goalie that season was Bernhardt who was 0-2-0 and gave up 10 goals.
     

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