The Babcocalypse: Babcock to Toronto

[SoupNazi]

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[FlashyG]

Except Babcock's preferred style is not a north-south, straight lines game. If he has the horses he let's them run and be creative. When he doesn't, he emphasizes structure and a more grinding style. If Brendan Smith was what you thought he was Babcock would let him go. The same way he lets Doughty and play his game,or let Rafalski play his game. Smith is not skilled enough to be that player...it should be obvious by now. Blashill isn't going to sprinkle some magic dust on him to make him a better passer or think the game better or have a better shot.

Babcock had one of if not the most stacked and skilled roster ever for Team Canada at the last Olympics and he stuck to his grind it out north south style.

He doesn't "let guys go", guys need to learn to produce within his system or they get demoted or sat.

Smith has for whatever reason been unable to produce in Babcock's system. Its very possible that he will continue to struggle under Blashill as well, I'm certainly not predicting that the change will turn around his career.

All I'm saying is that by playing in a more offensive minded system, Smith COULD improve. It has become pretty clear over the past 2 seasons that there wasn't going to be any improvement in Smith under Bab's system

 

[DanZ]

Babcock had one of if not the most stacked and skilled roster ever for Team Canada at the last Olympics and he stuck to his grind it out north south style.

He doesn't "let guys go", guys need to learn to produce within his system or they get demoted or sat.

Smith has for whatever reason been unable to produce in Babcock's system. Its very possible that he will continue to struggle under Blashill as well, I'm certainly not predicting that the change will turn around his career.

All I'm saying is that by playing in a more offensive minded system, Smith COULD improve. It has become pretty clear over the past 2 seasons that there wasn't going to be any improvement in Smith under Bab's system

Absolutely. Babcock had one of the most talented rosters of all time at his disposal and he stuck to his system. It's Babcock's system or nothing. There are no alternatives. He wants to win games 1-0 or 2-1.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I gotta laugh at the suggestion that Mike Babcock is a career killer. It's pretty clear that all of the guys who were actually decent hockey players in their prime and played a decent stretch of hockey in Detroit had career years under Babcock: Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Lidstrom, Schneider, Rafalski, Franzen and Holmstrom.

So forgive me for laughing in the faces of people who cry and mourn the careers of Brendan Smith or Jakub Kindl, two guys who haven't proven a god damn thing in the NHL to date. All evidence to date suggests that they just suck at hockey.

 

[8snake]

Babcock had one of if not the most stacked and skilled roster ever for Team Canada at the last Olympics and he stuck to his grind it out north south style.

He doesn't "let guys go", guys need to learn to produce within his system or they get demoted or sat.

Smith has for whatever reason been unable to produce in Babcock's system. Its very possible that he will continue to struggle under Blashill as well, I'm certainly not predicting that the change will turn around his career.

All I'm saying is that by playing in a more offensive minded system, Smith COULD improve. It has become pretty clear over the past 2 seasons that there wasn't going to be any improvement in Smith under Bab's system

See, I watched the Olympics and I saw Doughty doing what Doughty does. Just like Rafalski was allowed to do his thing. This is what I'm talking about...revisionist history with no basis in reality. Watch some youtube footage of those Wings teams during those Cup runs. Even Brad Stuart was jumping up in the play...guys had the green light to create because of their ability. Smith doesn't have that ability, so he's asked to play a simpler game. Again, watch how dynamic those Wings teams were...I didn't see any rigid, boring straight lines hockey. I saw a skilled forward group that played responsible defensively, a mobile defense that could dictate the pace and move the puck at an elite level...basically what the Blackhawks are now is what we were, except we were even better.

 

[Brandel*]

Bob Mackenzie's take as of a little earlier tonight

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/mckenzie-babcock-watch-continues-to-heat-up-until-decision-is-made-1.286675

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I forsee us becoming less aggressive if babs leaves in terms of improving the club from outside which will lead to less and less results on the ice

 

[DanZ]

I forsee us becoming less aggressive if babs leaves in terms of improving the club from outside which will lead to less and less results on the ice

Why on earth would you foresee that? Why would Babcock leaving prevent Holland/Illitch from improving the team as much as possible?

 

[Fugu]

Well yeah - they were leaving the country club atmosphere and getting back to work. Shanahan always had effort issues, that's why he had issues with Bowman. The Wings did win 52 (?) games that year.

Even you cannot overlook Babcock's self-criticism about how he started.

Yeah, but Wings players have had great seasons under Babcock. Datsyuk had back to back 97pt seasons. Zetterberg had 40 goals, Hossa had 40 goals. He wasn't playing a Nashville/Minnesota system. When Babcock had skill, the skill was shown. Once Lidstrom retired and Rafalski retired, we were left without puck movers. We had to change the system to stay competitive. Ian White and Kyle Quincey aren't picking up the slack.

The last 6 years have been incredibly different from what we're used to. But we've had zero upgrades from Holland, a year and a half from the kids and a regressing Datsyuk, Z, and Kronwall. Not sure what people expected - Babcock did what he could to make this team as competitive as possible. Some people think it should've been better, I feel that's wishful thinking.

Well, he adjusted, and then adjusted again. He had to, but we were discussing the earlier years and Shanny, Yzerman et al.

And Shanny would cut off his left arm to get Babs to Toronto.

You're trying to blame Babcock for every struggling player or every guy that 'got away'. Come on. No good coach is easy to play for. A boss that you like and you hang out with after work and who never critiques your work or pushes you is a bad boss, same goes for coaching. No one is requesting trades out of Detroit, guys like Sammy, Bert, Quincey, Williams etc etc have left and have been more than willing to return to play under Babs. Swedish players gave Babs mad respect when asked about him on swedish TV during Olympics, yes they also hinted they'd love to beat him but that's just natural.

Hmmm. When did I do the part in bold? He had his favorites, and his not favorites.

Hudler wasn't this good when he struggled to get icetime, and our team was much better thsn Calgary's. Jurco left his hands in slovakia, Babs didn't force him to stop scoring by putting him out on the PP for most of the season, and Smith just isn't showing the tools to be a guy you play in an all-out offense role. A coaching change COULD be good for the team but don't expect Blashill to ice a 1st line of Jurco-Larkin-Pulkkinen and a Smith-Sproul 1st pairing next season.

I don't think I've ever commented on Jurco. Hudler and Smitty I put in the category of guys with very specific skills and styles that did not fit into Bab's mold. He doesn't put Smitty into situations that build on his assets, which basically eroded any confidence he had.

 

[Heaton]

Holland prevents Holland from doing that. Babcock leaving allows Holland to be even more conservative.

 

[Fugu]

You have to keep in mind that Nick Lidstrom only won 4 of his 7 Norris trophies while Babcock was coach. It's clear that Babcock was holding him back.

Nah, so much of that voting is reputation and waiting for your turn. Nick didn't win a couple earlier on that he should have, and got a couple on the back end that maybe he shouldn't have gotten.


However, as Benchy pointed out, the roster Babs got when he got to Detroit, and then in 2008 and 09? I could have coached them to the second round. Maybe iffy after that point, but he would have been shot if he'd blown it.

 

[Fugu]

It's no more ridiculous than saying Mike Babcock is the reason Brendan Smith is not a good hockey player. Or any other Mike Babcock makes *insert player* a bad hockey player. None of this stuff about Babcock supposedly turning this team into a boring bunch of grinders playing a boring system is based on reality. The reality is the roster...and what Babcock has done from a schematic and structural standpoint to keep this team competitive. That's it, that's all.

No, he has favorites. Some guys who shouldn't have been where they were got some great IT, and others not so much.

Overall, it works out but to say he doesn't have a doghouse and that some guys spent more time in it? Come on.

 

[Heaton]

I gotta laugh at the suggestion that Mike Babcock is a career killer. It's pretty clear that all of the guys who were actually decent hockey players in their prime and played a decent stretch of hockey in Detroit had career years under Babcock: Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Lidstrom, Schneider, Rafalski, Franzen and Holmstrom.

So forgive me for laughing in the faces of people who cry and mourn the careers of Brendan Smith or Jakub Kindl, two guys who haven't proven a god damn thing in the NHL to date. All evidence to date suggests that they just suck at hockey.

Agreed, Smith is bad because he's not a good hockey player. He's never shown any real growth. Going back in time and turning him into some PP specialist wasn't going to turn him into a smarter player. I'm not even convinced he would've panned out that way either.

 

[Heaton]

Nah, so much of that voting is reputation and waiting for your turn. Nick didn't win a couple earlier on that he should have, and got a couple on the back end that maybe he shouldn't have gotten.


However, as Benchy pointed out, the roster Babs got when he got to Detroit, and then in 2008 and 09? I could have coached them to the second round. Maybe iffy after that point, but he would have been shot if he'd blown it.

I feel the same way about bowman's great teams.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Why on earth would you foresee that? Why would Babcock leaving prevent Holland/Illitch from improving the team as much as possible?

I think.who babs is and the clout he carries influences holland to do things he may otherwise not do

I think with blash, holland will feel less if not no pressure to deviate from his own plan

 

[Pavels Dog]

I forsee us becoming less aggressive if babs leaves in terms of improving the club from outside which will lead to less and less results on the ice

I don't think so. But I think Babcock's intense passion for winning and his drive will be lost, and that could lead to a downward spiral from inside. Scotty Bowman, Stevie Y, Babcock.. these are winners, guys that won't accept losing. I don't like losing one after another.

 

[FlashyG]

I gotta laugh at the suggestion that Mike Babcock is a career killer. It's pretty clear that all of the guys who were actually decent hockey players in their prime and played a decent stretch of hockey in Detroit had career years under Babcock: Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Lidstrom, Schneider, Rafalski, Franzen and Holmstrom.

So forgive me for laughing in the faces of people who cry and mourn the careers of Brendan Smith or Jakub Kindl, two guys who haven't proven a god damn thing in the NHL to date. All evidence to date suggests that they just suck at hockey.

Holy Strawman.

Who has argued that Babcock is a career killer? or that he's the cause of Smith and Kindl's disappointing careers thus far.

Saying someone could improve under a different coach doesn't mean the current coach made them struggle in the first place.

See, I watched the Olympics and I saw Doughty doing what Doughty does. Just like Rafalski was allowed to do his thing. This is what I'm talking about...revisionist history with no basis in reality. Watch some youtube footage of those Wings teams during those Cup runs. Even Brad Stuart was jumping up in the play...guys had the green light to create because of their ability. Smith doesn't have that ability, so he's asked to play a simpler game. Again, watch how dynamic those Wings teams were...I didn't see any rigid, boring straight lines hockey. I saw a skilled forward group that played responsible defensively, a mobile defense that could dictate the pace and move the puck at an elite level...basically what the Blackhawks are now is what we were, except we were even better.

You can't seriously look at Team Canada's 2014 Olympic run and see a team that was pushing offensively. The fact that Doughty had a great tournament doesn't change the fact that Team Canada focused on a hard nose defence first mentality.

They scored more than 3 goals in a game only 1 time in the entire tournament and it's not like they were facing only elite teams.

Smith absolutely does have the ability to jump into the play, in fact its by far the best part of his game. The problem is that he's not very good at getting back defensively once he does jump into the play. I hope that under a new coach he can learn that aspect of the game (I don't hold out much hope for it though), Babcock seemed to coach him to just stop jumping into rushes completely.

 

[Heaton]

Holy Strawman.

Who has argued that Babcock is a career killer? or that he's the cause of Smith and Kindl's disappointing careers thus far.

Saying someone could improve under a different coach doesn't mean the current coach made them struggle in the first place.

Lots of people have blamed Babcock for Smith not being a star.

 

[Pavels Dog]

You can't seriously look at Team Canada's 2014 Olympic run and see a team that was pushing offensively. The fact that Doughty had a great tournament doesn't change the fact that Team Canada focused on a hard nose defence first mentality.

They scored more than 3 goals in a game only 1 time in the entire tournament and it's not like they were facing only elite teams.

Smith absolutely does have the ability to jump into the play, in fact its by far the best part of his game. The problem is that when he does he doesn't seem to get back defensively if they don't score. Under Babcock that is unacceptable.

I personally think it's ridiculous to draw so many conclusions from a 2 week tournament. Teams have a very short time to practice and prepare. Playing a hard nosed defence first game is probably simpler to get everyone to learn than trying to play a high-octane, creative offensive style that requires more chemistry.

As for Smith, he's got the ability to jump into the play but what happens next? Because he doesn't score, he doesn't set up many scoring plays, and most of the time he doesn't even get involved in high quality chances. His offensive instincts are a huge disappointment to me everytime he gets past the offensive blueline.

 

[Heaton]

and they won, so who cares?

 

[FlashyG]

and they won, so who cares?

We weren't debating whether Babcock's system is effective.

 

[Heaton]

We weren't debating whether Babcock's system is effective.

No, but that's a theme throughout the last 1,000 posts. if everyone thought his system was still effective, no one would be cheering that he might be leaving.

 

[Bench]

and they won, so who cares?

The primary point remains HOW they won. It's a rare case where we get to see what a coach does when he has a dream team.

People say Babcock coaches conservatively because the Wings roster has to do that to win. There's a lot of truth to that statement. I agree with that. But we've also seen Babcock, in very recent history, with one of the greatest rosters to ever play and they were coached to be a shell team that counter punches on turnovers.

Boy, that sounds familiar to what we saw in Detroit.

 

[Heaton]

meh, extremely small sample size, Olympic ice, Olympic rules. it's not apples to apples.

 

[Bench]

We weren't debating whether Babcock's system is effective.

Well... we've only seen it be effective with stacked teams and a goalie that went on one of the greatest goalie runs of NHL history. That's worth considering.

That said, I still think Babcock is in an elite coaching class. But he's not above criticism, nor is his way the golden ticket to playoff success with the current Wings roster. If Holland isn't going to blow up the Wings to match Babcock's needs, then you've got to try a coach that can work better with what's in front of them.

Jury will be out if anybody can actually do any better with this roster. I doubt it. But we already know the results with the current scheme.

And that's what disappoints me in Holland... he seems content to keep jamming that square peg into the round hole, watching the splinters fly out hoping next year will be the push it squeaks through.