OT: The Athletic

[mervincm]

I used to pay for newspapers/cable, now I pay for content on the Internet. Free to view is great, but I use an ad blocker and I don't work for free so why should they?
73 can$ was more than I thought it should be for a year, I might not renew unless I can find a deal at that time. I saw deal codes this time, but I didn't want to pay monthly.

 

[dem]

I forgot to cancel my extended free preview...

so I got scammed out of 60 for a years subscription. Definitely not worth it to me.

 

[dustrock]

I'm just shocked that people would be ragging on writers like Mitchell and Young Willis when they produce timely, measured articles about the team time and time again.

I don't think most content is written for "hardcore" fans, but sometimes I'm not sure what people are looking for. On the more human side of things, they added Daniel Nugent-Bowman and today he had a great article about Adam Larsson and his journey in recovering from his father's passing last year.

A couple of days ago he had an article about Draisaitl and his father. This is stuff I feel like I can't find elsewhere.

The only person worth following at Cult of Hockey is Bruce McCurdy, and then otherwise, I could not care less about the Journal's cadre of writers, and while I don't mind guys like Rishaug and Gregor at all, they certainly aren't providing any in-depth analysis.

I guess I'm surprised people feel this content is expensive. I know people that spend about $6-10 per day on coffee from Starbucks or whatever. Hundreds of dollars per month on booze or video games, etc. Whatever works, I just think paying that much per month for a site I visit every day for NHL/NFL/NBA/soccer content is easily worth it.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Who is Mitchell and Young Willis and Daniel Nugent Bowman?! I should be paying to read content of bloggers I've never heard of? I don't really get the draw of unknown authors being all that compelling.

What are people looking for? Not this, apparently. 100 games/year and following those is enough for me.

Theres been TONS of well written stuff about Drai and his dad, also several videos of them talking about their relationship. Theres been so much of this and certainly not hard to find.

fwiw I spend zero bucks on starbucks coffee, I make the best coffee at home, I spend zero bucks on video games and booze at least gives me a buzz. More than an unread Athletic subscription would.

I forgot to cancel my extended free preview...

so I got scammed out of 60 for a years subscription. Definitely not worth it to me.

and that's about it. A publication that gets by on the now common scam of false leader free preview pricing and please sign up and we'll hit you in the wallet later if you forget to cancel (which busy people almost always do)

You have to ask yourself why would a great publication need to do that.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Ok, this is just a joke guys, don't go ballistic, but do subscribers get referred to as "Athletic Supporters"?

I'm contractually obligated to ask such hard hitting questions.

 

[StevenF1919]

Who is Mitchell and Young Willis and Daniel Nugent Bowman?! I should be paying to read content of bloggers I've never heard of? I don't really get the draw of unknown authors being all that compelling.

What are people looking for? Not this, apparently. 100 games/year and following those is enough for me.

Theres been TONS of well written stuff about Drai and his dad, also several videos of them talking about their relationship. Theres been so much of this and certainly not hard to find.

fwiw I spend zero bucks on starbucks coffee, I make the best coffee at home, I spend zero bucks on video games and booze at least gives me a buzz. More than an unread Athletic subscription would.

You've seriously never heard of Jonathan Willis or Lowetide?

I'd rather read stuff from these "bloggers" than the so called "journalists" in the local MSM like Matheson (who passed his best before date decades ago), Spector, and Staples. All of the innovative hockey writing and analytics work in the past 10 years has been done by bloggers, while the mainstream guys are writing articles about how Milan Lucic is coming into training camp in the best shape of his life. And FYI, most of these writers are making 6 figures at The Athletic, I'd hardly call them bloggers.

 

[dem]

and that's about it. A publication that gets by on the now common scam of false leader free preview pricing and please sign up and we'll hit you in the wallet later if you forget to cancel (which busy people almost always do)

You have to ask yourself why would a great publication need to do that.

Very annoying. I went to cancel it the first time and then it offered me another month or whatever... so I thought "Eh.. screw it.. I guess i'll keep it a little longer"...

Forget to set a reminder to cancel my new EXTENDED free trial.. and blammo... charged for a whole year.


I can only blame myself... but really shady to charge for a whole year.

 

[StevenF1919]

Very annoying. I went to cancel it the first time and then it offered me another month or whatever... so I thought "Eh.. screw it.. I guess i'll keep it a little longer"...

Forget to set a reminder to cancel my new EXTENDED free trial.. and blammo... charged for a whole year.


I can only blame myself... but really shady to charge for a whole year.

Pretty sure they'll refund you if you email them.

 

[Smartguy]

Lowetide was a long time mod here and was certainly one of the best posters on the board at the time, I haven't read his Athletic content, but I can't imagine him not turning out better content than the vast majority of posters on here would if afforded the same opportunity.

Maybe I’m over looking it, but when I’m paying for content I want something that I don’t have. I can watch the game and type up an article that will appease the fan base. What I want to pay for is insightful views into the business side, FA, trades, etc. or views into the locker room. The stuff you get from insiders. Hence why I like the stuff Lebrun, custance, pronman, etc. spin out there because it is definitely worth price. I’m not saying lowetide can’t write a good blog, but I don’t overly care for observations from the game or a signing, I watched it, I already know what mainstream media thinks.

The oilers section is probably one of the only ones who doesn’t have an “insider” or a big name who has those connections in the team to give that look that I want to pay for.

 

[Aerrol]

So I bit the bullet and signed up for a year. Happy so far, really like the detailed prospects breakdowns. Just read one on Bouchard which actually stressed a huge aspect of his game I hadn't considered: his ability to get shots through traffic but keep them low. This causes far better rebounds than high shots. Neat.

 

[Drivesaitl]

You've seriously never heard of Jonathan Willis or Lowetide?

I'd rather read stuff from these "bloggers" than the so called "journalists" in the local MSM like Matheson (who passed his best before date decades ago), Spector, and Staples. All of the innovative hockey writing and analytics work in the past 10 years has been done by bloggers, while the mainstream guys are writing articles about how Milan Lucic is coming into training camp in the best shape of his life. And FYI, most of these writers are making 6 figures at The Athletic, I'd hardly call them bloggers.

I've heard of Lowetide, I've posted with him hundreds of times. I wouldn't know him personally or by name. "Young Willis" Don't know him. I've read Jonathan Willis and don't care for any of his work. Certainly not enough to pay for the privilege of not reading it much.

"Innovative hockey writing"


Like I said it died when ACTUAL quality authors like Ken Dryden, Peter Gzowski, Red Fisher stopped writing about hockey.

If one of the writers at the Atlantic, that has something like 90K subscribers, is already making 6 figures I'd say theres something wrong with the sustainable plan of that having any success. Yeah, they're still bloggers. Only now they want to get paid. Kind of saw that coming.

 

[StevenF1919]

I've heard of Lowetide, I've posted with him hundreds of times. I wouldn't know him personally or by name. "Young Willis" Don't know him. I've read Jonathan Willis and don't care for any of his work. Certainly not enough to pay for the privilege of not reading it much.

"Innovative hockey writing"


Like I said it died when ACTUAL quality authors like Ken Dryden, Peter Gzowski, Red Fisher stopped writing about hockey.

If one of the writers at the Atlantic, that has something like 90K subscribers, is already making 6 figures I'd say theres something wrong with the sustainable plan of that having any success. Yeah, they're still bloggers. Only now they want to get paid. Kind of saw that coming.

Tyler Dellow's articles on things like special teams, breakouts, defensive zone faceoff losses, and on ohe fly line changes are 100% innovative and something you won't find anywhere else. Seeing as you haven't read any of the articles in the site, I'm not sure how you can accurately make assumptions on the quality of the writing.

From what I've heard from people in the know, they're profitable in several cities already. And God forbid these people should be paid for their work. I assume you don't take a salary at your job?

 

[Drivesaitl]

So I bit the bullet and signed up for a year. Happy so far, really like the detailed prospects breakdowns. Just read one on Bouchard which actually stressed a huge aspect of his game I hadn't considered: his ability to get shots through traffic but keep them low. This causes far better rebounds than high shots. Neat.

With all due respect this is the kind of pearl of wisdom one would hear for the last 50yrs. Its not like its some kind of new idea.

But this is my primary problem with "The Athletic"

“I think Alex and I, as die-hard sports fans ourselves, were both influenced heavily by publications that we really loved personally," explained Hansmann. “I was and still am a big fan of FiveThirtyEight, bringing data journalism there and Alex, same thing.
“We both kind of personally skewed toward that nerdier, smarter coverage, but as we've gone on, we've absolutely diversified away from just the nerdy salary-cap analysis or the sabermetrics-style baseball story.”

For one I hate baseball, could give a toss about moneyball or sabermetrics analysis and I certainly don't see it as "smarter coverage'' when applied to hockey, a game that defies categorical faux statistical depiction. But the part about "Data journalism" has me in stiches. As if the analysis of sport journalism is such a key and important search in the world that requires algorithims and metrics and data analysis. Man, just watch the games, maybe even enjoy it.




I do wonder with graphite sticks if its even a little harder to keep shots down. If I was a D I would want the blade design shaped differently than for forwards. I'm not a stickologist so I don't know. The one great thing about wooden sticks is how much you could custom and shape those blades the way you wanted. The art of that is missing today, perhaps some of those results as well.

Another interesting thing is that Graphite blades have virtually killed the slapshot. Kids with an expensive blade don't want to do that much for fear of killing the stick. pro's don't do it much as they learned not to do it. Sometimes theres a place for a slapshot. It also addresses shot blocking in a way that doesn't always occur with wrist shots. A lot of players that have no qualms getting in front of a wrister might think twice about blistering slap shots.

Oddly enough the last slap shot I saw was by a german player in DEL. Its rare here. I mean a full wind up slap shot.

 

[Aerrol]

With all due respect this is the kind of pearl of wisdom one would hear for the last 50yrs. Its not like its some kind of new idea.

But this is my primary problem with "The Athletic"

“I think Alex and I, as die-hard sports fans ourselves, were both influenced heavily by publications that we really loved personally," explained Hansmann. “I was and still am a big fan of FiveThirtyEight, bringing data journalism there and Alex, same thing.
“We both kind of personally skewed toward that nerdier, smarter coverage, but as we've gone on, we've absolutely diversified away from just the nerdy salary-cap analysis or the sabermetrics-style baseball story.”

For one I hate baseball, could give a toss about moneyball or sabermetrics analysis and I certainly don't see it as "smarter coverage'' when applied to hockey, a game that defies categorical faux statistical depiction. But the part about "Data journalism" has me in stiches. As if the analysis of sport journalism is such a key and important search in the world that requires algorithims and metrics and data analysis. Man, just watch the games, maybe even enjoy it.




I do wonder with graphite sticks if its even a little harder to keep shots down. If I was a D I would want the blade design shaped differently than for forwards. I'm not a stickologist so I don't know. The one great thing about wooden sticks is how much you could custom and shape those blades the way you wanted. The art of that is missing today, perhaps some of those results as well.

Another interesting thing is that Graphite blades have virtually killed the slapshot. Kids with an expensive blade don't want to do that much for fear of killing the stick. pro's don't do it much as they learned not to do it. Sometimes theres a place for a slapshot. It also addresses shot blocking in a way that doesn't always occur with wrist shots. A lot of players that have no qualms getting in front of a wrister might think twice about blistering slap shots.

Oddly enough the last slap shot I saw was by a german player in DEL. Its rare here. I mean a full wind up slap shot.

It's not any sort of new revelation, but it's a point I hadn't considered specifically in terms of how much better Bouchard is at it than other dmen. And I know you're just making conversation but I'm just trying to give a bit of sense for what content I enjoy so far. This one was a long form, maybe 3000 word breakdown on Bouchard, complete with many video clips.

As for stick design, you might have a point. Definitely really rare to see slapshots these days.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Tyler Dellow's articles on things like special teams, breakouts, defensive zone faceoff losses, and on ohe fly line changes are 100% innovative and something you won't find anywhere else. Seeing as you haven't read any of the articles in the site, I'm not sure how you can accurately make assumptions on the quality of the writing.

From what I've heard from people in the know, they're profitable in several cities already. And God forbid these people should be paid for their work. I assume you don't take a salary at your job?

I might have read Dellows work when you were still in school. I read a decade of Dellows work, and often not by choice as it was here, often here, often linked here. I know his writing style. As I know Lowetides, Willis. They don't do it for me.

You might have a poor memory. Actually start a thread here and ask how many people miss seeing Tyler Dellow posting here or that are still laughing about it or his connection with Eakins.

Suffice to say that the next time I would want to see Tyler Dellow writing something in his ridiculously obtuse writing style would be never. I'm actually thankfull a lot of these bloggers have found a place to join together and hold hands and where I need never see the light of their further work. This serves a public service of giving them something to do to occupy their time better.

FWIW The Athletic will probably be successful to a degree. Never underestimate what people will pay for sports says the Super Bowl. As a rule theres money to be made, in pro sports, always, lest people lose their religion. But I'm not one of the flock. I'm fiscally prudent and watch games for free. Sports is not a vice to me its a pastime hobby. It gets none of my money.

But many will pay, I have little doubt, and that they can even raise funding through shares and such theres a demonstration of people willing to invest, not as subscribers but even shares investors. It will fly it looks like, that's my take. But I think it will hit a ceiling, and at some point afterwards die. I think too that in time people will tire of excessive sports analysis. Or of prosports overall cost in their lives.

 

[Drivesaitl]

It's not any sort of new revelation, but it's a point I hadn't considered specifically in terms of how much better Bouchard is at it than other dmen. And I know you're just making conversation but I'm just trying to give a bit of sense for what content I enjoy so far. This one was a long form, maybe 3000 word breakdown on Bouchard, complete with many video clips.

As for stick design, you might have a point. Definitely really rare to see slapshots these days.

This is the thing, I'm innately inquisitive. I'm a person constantly asking questions and studying and wondering. So I notice things like that and then wonder why. But that's the point, and theres all kinds of "smart analysis' to quote The Athletic, but they subscribe a lot to one. Paint by numbers sports analysis. Where instead there is all kinds of observational analysis that could be going on but alas died with people like Howie Meeker. I have time for that kind of analysis of games any day. But Meeker is gone and he was great.

Myself, I think its droll forThe Athletic to assume they have cornered the market on "Smart Analysis" Its offputting to me. Arrogant even.

Heres a side story as illustration. Science now knows that the Jupiter moon, IO, has huge volcanic eruptions. This was until recently considered a non starter in academic thought, that a celestial body so far from its sun, and so small, could have geothermal energy. It was almost unthought of. Only a small faction of Scientists realized this moon and others could have such activity. So now since theres been orbits, photo evidence, etc. Scientists now realize something that they could easily have known when the moons were first discovered. That the Geothermal energy could be created by in turn, gravity, and movement friction. They had the answer all along, any Physics student could have had an aha moment, and yet this came mostly as surprise.

Just noting that story, as "smarts" often come from unexpected sources. Better Science fiction writers might have more fluid thought process. Sometimes getting bogged down in numbers all the time removes the obvious, or the possible from cognition. Even in Scientific circles there is constant concern that observational Science is so inordinately replaced by todays numerical Science.

 

[Aerrol]

This is the thing, I'm innately inquisitive. I'm a person constantly asking questions and studying and wondering. So I notice things like that. But that's the point, and theres all kinds of "smart analysis' to quote The Athletic, but they subscribe a lot to one. Paint by numbers sports analysis. Where instead there is all kinds of observational analysis that could be going on but alas died with people like Howie Meeker. I have time for that kind of analysis of games any day. But Meeker is gone and he was great.

Myself, I think its droll forThe Athletic to assume they have cornered the market on "Smart Analysis" Its offputting to me. Arrogant even.

Heres a side story as illustration. Science now knows that the Jupiter moon, IO, has huge volcanic eruptions. This was until recently considered a non starter in academic thought, that a celestial body so far from its sun, and so small, could have geothermal energy. It was almost unthought of. Only a small faction of Scientists realized this moon and others could have such activity. So now since theres been orbits, photo evidence, etc. Scientists now realize something that they could easily have known when the moons were first discovered. That the Geothermal energy could be created by in turn, gravity, and movement friction. They had the answer all along, any Physics student could have had an aha moment, and yet this came mostly as surprise.

Just noting that story as "smarts" often come from unexpected sources. Better Science fiction writers might have more fluid thought process. Sometimes getting bogged down in numbers all the time removes the obvious, or the possible from cognition. Even in Scientific circles there is constant concern that observational Science is so inordinately replaced by todays numerical Science.

You definitely lost me during your trip to space, lol.

I don't know that the Athletic has even claimed to be the only good source of information and analysis. Just that they offer a bigger one stop shop collection of analysis and fewer short filler pieces. So far I'm happy with the variety. It saves me the time of digging through a bunch of different blogs for the few good breakdowns on prospects or players. That's enough value to me. Doesn't have to be to you or anyone else.

 

[Drivesaitl]

You definitely lost me during your trip to space, lol.

I don't know that the Athletic has even claimed to be the only good source of information and analysis. Just that they offer a bigger one stop shop collection of analysis and fewer short filler pieces. So far I'm happy with the variety. It saves me the time of digging through a bunch of different blogs for the few good breakdowns on prospects or players. That's enough value to me. Doesn't have to be to you or anyone else.

Sorry, I have coursework in Scientific theory and the History of Science. I love reading about the history of science and think its important to understand the evolution of what scientific thought and analysis is. I'm a devout student of Scientific thought. But the Athletic is not pitching Science or cornering the market on sporting analysis. They are providing one TYPE of sports analysis more than others and packaging that as the only type of "Smart analysis" there is. Some observational analysis of sports is dying.

Don't mistake the relation either. Observational analysis in the sportsworld is taking a backseat to number running as the analytics community for decades has been preaching that "seen it good" analysis is crap. People are buying the spin on fancy numbers. Theres this thinking if there's metrics and numbers involved it must be more substantive. The average reader just glosses over the numbers and charts and just accepts the conclusions unknowingly, right or wrong.


This reminds me of the saying that when someone self describes themselves as an expert its better to walk away.

I am no expert, I'm a punter, but theres far better thinkers out there worth my time than people shilling "smart" sports analysis which is actually pretty trivial when one thinks about it.

But if there was a publication that I would feel worth reading for sports coverage it would have a lot of Coaches and ex star players writing the articles. Not blogger punters along for the ride.

 

[Aerrol]

Sorry, I have coursework in Scientific theory and the History of Science. I love reading about the history of science and think its important to understand the evolution of what scientific thought and analysis is. I'm a devout student of Scientific thought. But the Athletic is not pitching Science or cornering the market on sporting analysis. They are providing one TYPE of sports analysis more than others and packaging that as the only type of "Smart analysis" there is. Some observational analysis of sports is dying.

Don't mistake the relation either. Observational analysis in the sportsworld is taking a backseat to number running as the analytics community for decades has been preaching that "seen it good" analysis is crap. People are buying the spin on fancy numbers. Theres this thinking if there's metrics and numbers involved it must be more substantive. The average reader just glosses over the numbers and charts and just accepts the conclusions unknowingly, right or wrong.


This reminds me of the saying that when someone self describes themselves as an expert its better to walk away.

I am no expert, I'm a punter, but theres far better thinkers out there worth my time than people shilling "smart" sports analysis which is actually pretty trivial when one thinks about it.

But if there was a publication that I would feel worth reading for sports coverage it would have a lot of Coaches and ex star players writing the articles. Not blogger punters along for the ride.

Do you like the Players Tribune? Their stuff tends to be more fluff often but I love it too. The articles about how to play a role (e.g. Neal on being a sniper) or player opinions on best at their position (E.G. Shattenkirk's top dmen articles) are really insightful. No disagreement there that I prefer player and ex player (or coach) analysis. I'd pay for the players tribune too if it went subscription and upped its hockey content.

 

[oobga]

I forgot to cancel my subscription and am just gonna go another year. I actually find Dellow's stuff the most interesting. The Oilers stuff gets a bit repetitive, but I guess that's how it goes with any site/paper with consistent writers. The new Nugent-Bowman guy is adding a little variety lately which is good.

Just a side note. Took 2 days to finally see any oilers article on the site about that piece of garbage game we all just watched

 

[Oscar Acosta]

I think it's good for writers to get paid.

On the flip side, I'm not going to pay them when I feel like I get better content from the fan base itself. The news will happen instantly on Twitter, the analysis - I'd rather read what people like Draivsaitl, BBO, Cloned, etc have to say.

Perhaps if it had things like "exclusive reporter asking Chiarelli where his brain is at" or "I got the answers on why the PP is all lefties" I might be inclined to pay. But it would just be here an hour later anyway.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

I think it's good for writers to get paid.

On the flip side, I'm not going to pay them when I feel like I get better content from the fan base itself. The news will happen instantly on Twitter, the analysis - I'd rather read what people like Draivsaitl, BBO, Cloned, etc have to say.

Perhaps if it had things like "exclusive reporter asking Chiarelli where his brain is at" or "I got the answers on why the PP is all lefties" I might be inclined to pay. But it would just be here an hour later anyway.

It would be nice if the media grew a pair and started asking tougher questions of Todd. They seemed to start going after Chia a bit last season but Todd to date has been off limits.

 

[joestevens29]

It would be nice if the media grew a pair and started asking tougher questions of Todd. They seemed to start going after Chia a bit last season but Todd to date has been off limits.

They'll just wait until after the interview is done to ask the tough question to their viewers

The worse was last year when the biggest issue was what can we do about the in game experience. Then after the interview everyone lost it because PC was running the Oil Kings. Seemed like a perfect platform to ask the question. Then again I don't think anyone was smart enough to do the investigated journalism to even know this.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I did a bit of a look through some of their articles just out of curiosity. Some btw which I'm able to locate from third party links, copies, references etc. The ironic thing being is that its only those extraneous links that allows a potential viewer to take a complete peak at the articles and get some that give the whole written piece, the whole story. The AThletic site seems to think that giving the first paragraph of an article is enough to sustain or drive interest. Theres often not much said in those preambles. Not enough to entice. Nor do the articles. Gotta say as well the idea of RNH brother or whoever he is getting a writing gig on basis of name is more nepotism I don't really need. We fault the Oilers org for that and yet we welcome a sports publication doing it? Seems odd.

 

[Jet Walters]

I did a bit of a look through some of their articles just out of curiosity. Some btw which I'm able to locate from third party links, copies, references etc. The ironic thing being is that its only those extraneous links that allows a potential viewer to take a complete peak at the articles and get some that give the whole written piece, the whole story. The AThletic site seems to think that giving the first paragraph of an article is enough to sustain or drive interest. Theres often not much said in those preambles. Not enough to entice. Nor do the articles. Gotta say as well the idea of RNH brother or whoever he is getting a writing gig on basis of name is more nepotism I don't really need. We fault the Oilers org for that and yet we welcome a sports publication doing it? Seems odd.

The writer has no relation to RNH.