Pre-Game Talk: The All Purpose Off Day Thread | Because 60 Minutes Just Isn't Enough

[66-30-33]

Sprong and Brassard for Lovejoy and sign Adams/Scuderi.

Do it JR!

 

[Peat]

The Fall of Sprong.

I actually missed writing anything about yesterday's game due to travel, so hopefully its okay for me to put it here - and that is it was a really fun game to watch (although I ragequit twice) with some good details for the Pens like Sid showing signs of life, depth scoring, a second non-terrible game in a row for Murray, and good resilience to stick with a game they might have written off.

No, it wasn't the smooth progression and maintenance from the Toronto game wanted to see, but in context of the season so far it was progress. And fun!

If Brassard and Rust could join in the party next, and if outchancing a team at ES led to being somewhere near them for shots, that'd be nice.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Let's say this trend of getting outplayed by lesser teams continues for 20-30 games. I hope that's not the case and that they find a rhythm soon with a more heavy schedule...but for argument's sake let's assume it does.

Would replacing Jacques Martin make any difference? Or do you think he's just screwed trying to instill structure defensively with our types of players and the style of play Sullivan wants? How much blame do you attribute to him?

He's in charge of the D and the PK. PK was 17th last year. 20th in GA/GP. I'm grateful for his work in the Cup runs, but those are history now. I know they'll never do it, but I wonder if the players need a new voice. It's been open season for our opponents on our goalies for over a year.

Why are they getting outshot 46-31 and getting out-HDCF'd 23-15 to the Edmonton Oilers coming off 4 days rest, intensive practices and extensive video sessions? These 10/14 points earned can be largely attributed to talent, being opportunistic and goaltending. The only game we've dominated in terms of high danger chances was the 1st one against Washington. 27-8 for the Pens. However. that was a back-to-back situation for Washington and the Pens were fresh as a daisy. Apart from that, the HDCF vs. HDCA are as follows:

vs MTL 9-10
vs VGK 5-12
@ MTL 8-11
vs VAN 11-9
@ TOR 10-14
@ EDM 15-23

As you can see, despite our absurd forward depth, we're not really taking it hard to anybody. Strong effort against Toronto, but only 1 goal in like 58 minutes. The Vancouver game was decent, but it's just the Canucks for Christ's sake! It's not Nashville.

The regular SCF vs SCA tells a similar story. So if this trend continues for another month+... what's the solution? Assistant coaching change? Trade Brassard? Bring in another stay-at-home D with the LTIR relief we got from Schultz? We can go over the cap. Could call up a defensively responsible forward from WBS to replace Sprong, but that's a minor fix. The PK's done very well so far, but they surrendered 2 last night. What if that goes down the toilet too?

What should be done? This team should be asserting itself more against the bottom half of the league.

 

[Turin]

I don’t think they decided that a back-to-back championship formula was bullshit and scrapped it.

I think

1. The cap has gone up and other younger teams have caught up while the Pens roster has gotten *relatively* worse because winning = money. Fleury, Sheary, Cole, Bonino, Lovejoy, Daley, Kunitz either got too old or had to leave due to Dumo, Rust, Schultz cap hits bloating.

2. Crosby and Malkin grow a year older every season. If Crosby is at his 2017 level every game there’s probably not much distress either way.

3. This team still hasn’t gelled so we don’t know what they are. Like what the hell is Brassard for example? There are red flags though, but nothing too ominous yet.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I don’t think they decided that a back-to-back championship formula was bull**** and scrapped it.

I think

1. The cap has gone up and other younger teams have caught up while the Pens roster has gotten *relatively* worse because winning = money. Fleury, Sheary, Cole, Bonino, Lovejoy, Daley, Kunitz either got too old or had to leave due to Dumo, Rust, Schultz cap hits bloating.

2. Crosby and Malkin grow a year older every season. If Crosby is at his 2017 level every game there’s probably not much distress either way.

3. This team still hasn’t gelled so we don’t know what they are. Like what the hell is Brassard for example? There are red flags though, but nothing too ominous yet.

I agree it's not at all ominous yet. That's why I said if this continues into December or whatever. What if Brassard is still sucking at like game 30-35?

I'm glad you mentioned Cole. I miss him. He did very well in Columbus in his short stint and has continued his strong play in Colorado so far. We needed him in the playoffs.

Malkin hasn't regressed at all yet IMO. He will eventually though.

 

[WayneSid9987]

To: @Riikolas Revenge

The speed advantage/jumping on teams of late '16 PIT is long gone and the D-Core isn't good enough to play a '17 style with Murray trying to get back on track.

I think the problem was Sully and company came into things trying to play the '16 style cuz of the percieved good depth/speed and it hasn't really worked. They were trying to push the pace with 3 guys on the forecheck and were getting burnt by doing so.
Ever since the TOR start(someone here pointed it out), they are hanging the 3rd F back and playing a more conservative approach. A more clogged NZ/trying to have all 5 guys back to help out

At the moment, this ^ strategy is the correct one.
Now if you get really good at cleaning up your own end/cleaning up the NZ/focus on the back check/stop giving away pucks in bad areas AND also press the play in the OZ with successful pinches/lots of possession and shots then you'll see the tide starting to turn.
Establishing an identity and being hard to play against in your own unique way.
It's an on going process for every team really where everyone wants to be peaking at the right time.

ETA:
For PIT atm, that also includes figuring out the lines and D-pairs/managing injuries too with Schultz out. For other teams, the lines/pairs are probably more set in stone.
For Brass specifically, if the "not finding a spot" thing continues past 25 games, i'd certainly put feelers out there but Sheahan at 3C isn't something i'd plan to run with for a Cup run.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

It's true I've noticed our 3 forwards caught/circling the net on the enemy counter-attack all the time this season. That does sound like a smart adjustment.

But a good chunk of our struggles last night weren't even due to strategical flaws. It was just dumb shit...self-inflicted. They were handing over the puck to Edmonton inside our blue line without even really being under duress. These ridiculously soft clears (mostly by our forwards). Free extended zone time for the Oilers. It was particularly bad in the 1st period.

It's just unacceptable. Flip it out with a Murphy dump. Ram it off the wall. Take an icing if you have to. Don't throw a powder puff to a defenseman who can walk into it with speed, cruise past the gap in coverage and find the open man on a backdoor play.

It wasn't in our zone, but Sheahan almost lost the game for us last night. He gave it right to Draisaitl for a free path to the net and Murray put on the cape. Can't believe we won that game lol.

I hope they sub in Ruhwedel. He's been serviceable in the past. He can skate and he doesn't have focus issues. But he's no long term solution at all.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I agree they should get Ruh in there.
The problem becomes, the guy they'd be most willing to sit atm is Riiko or maybe Olli.
Looks like they're gonna just go with the same pairs to start in TOR and EDM.
Which i prefer IF these 6 are gonna dress.
Only thing i'd try if i was dressing these 6 is splitting up your best 2 D-Men to try and find a suitable 2nd unit but i understand not doing that too.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I agree they should get Ruh in there.
The problem becomes, the guy they'd be most willing to sit atm is Riiko or maybe Olli.
Looks like they're gonna just go with the same pairs to start in TOR and EDM.
Which i prefer IF these 6 are gonna dress.
Only thing i'd try if i was dressing these 6 is splitting up your best 2 D-Men to try and find a suitable 2nd unit but i understand not doing that too.

I'd be disgusted if they sat Riikola. He was fine last night. He shadowed McDavid well. The goals against him weren't his fault.

I mean, look:
Spoiler Free NHL Highlights
2:35. Johnson loses a battle (weak effort IMO). An Oiler sets a pick on Riikola and he can't appropriately telescope out to block Draisaitl's shot.
2:57. Sprong gets owned. Riikola sticks to his man the whole time, in case the rebound pops out to him, just as he should. What's he supposed to do? There's 2 Penguin defenders and 3 Oilers forwards down low. They can't cover all 3. No help from the forwards.

As for Johnson...
4:53. I don't like his positioning at all before that break. He should be more central and further back. It's bad defensive awareness. He leaves Maatta out to dry in an awkward position and a 2 on 1 to boot.

6:30 I only semi-blame him. He's forced to cover 2 guys in close proximity. Pretty slow stick though to cut off the available passing lane. Cullen's stick was blocking the other option.

4th goal was the McDavid softie on the PP btw. So, was it really Maatta hurting us like people were suggesting? I mean, he wasn't good by any stretch of the imagination, but I can't blame him for the Oilers goals.

Johnson or Maatta should sit. Johnson's been weak in executing the offensive chances he's jumped into the rush for. Weak shots. He's had more bad games than good defensively. He's not really providing anything of value. Maatta's doing nothing in the O-zone and has probably been even worse than JJ overall. At least Riikola's been a threat offensively to start the season. Missed a few lasers and got pucks into deflectable areas for our forwards. Unlucky not to have any points. Plus his work ethic has been A-grade. Hasn't been a liability at all. Can't justify it. Would be a bad move by Sullivan.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Already said they should sit JJ after that performance but just don't see it happening.
Why i said it'd be down to Riiko and Olli after that EDM game where Rig potted 2.

Rig has decent CF/FF%'s with the minutes he's played so i'd give him more responsibility.

Dumo-Tang
Riiko-Rig or Rig-Riiko
JJ-Ruh

Is something thats doable from the coaching staffs perspective BUT they really love JJ atm so he probably gets another 20 mins in CGY.

 

[Andy99]

I agree they should get Ruh in there.
The problem becomes, the guy they'd be most willing to sit atm is Riiko or maybe Olli.
Looks like they're gonna just go with the same pairs to start in TOR and EDM.
Which i prefer IF these 6 are gonna dress.
Only thing i'd try if i was dressing these 6 is splitting up your best 2 D-Men to try and find a suitable 2nd unit but i understand not doing that too.

They should sit JJ...

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

They should sit JJ...

Of course the SHOULD, but you can't be sitting your Captain's BFF

Sadly JJ HAS the physical tools to get where he wants- he's a pretty gifted player and has a ton of talent. But man he's so freaking dumb. It's like he's received ZERO NHL coaching. I wish we could give him the Schultz treatment when he first got here: favorable zone starts, easy competition and we're going to ease you in. Because if you look at Schultz defensively from when he got here to today, it's amazing

 

[Andy99]

Of course the SHOULD, but you can't be sitting your Captain's BFF

Sadly JJ HAS the physical tools to get where he wants- he's a pretty gifted player and has a ton of talent. But man he's so freaking dumb. It's like he's received ZERO NHL coaching. I wish we could give him the Schultz treatment when he first got here: favorable zone starts, easy competition and we're going to ease you in. Because if you look at Schultz defensively from when he got here to today, it's amazing

Yes, you can sit the Captain's BFF and yes, you don't have to sign the Captain's BFF to a long-term deal...the fact that the Pens don't and didn't reflect that they apparently would rather be satisfying Sid than winning another Cup...you would hope Sid gets it....I think JJ should play 3rd pairing minutes, like 13 compared to the 20 he's been playing...if that means moving Maatta-Olek up for the time being --until we can swing a trade in December--then so be it

 

[Pancakes]

Let's say this trend of getting outplayed by lesser teams continues for 20-30 games. I hope that's not the case and that they find a rhythm soon with a more heavy schedule...but for argument's sake let's assume it does.

Would replacing Jacques Martin make any difference?

What should be done? This team should be asserting itself more against the bottom half of the league.

It's not Martin. It's the personnel. We're an older team now and our defense isn't especially good after the first pair. We used to be one of the fastest NHL teams but I no longer think this is the case. People mimicked what we did and now you see a lot of younger hungrier teams like the Devils, Canes, etc displaying all kinds of speed.

 

[Gurglesons]

Of course the SHOULD, but you can't be sitting your Captain's BFF

Sadly JJ HAS the physical tools to get where he wants- he's a pretty gifted player and has a ton of talent. But man he's so freaking dumb. It's like he's received ZERO NHL coaching. I wish we could give him the Schultz treatment when he first got here: favorable zone starts, easy competition and we're going to ease you in. Because if you look at Schultz defensively from when he got here to today, it's amazing

I think you’ll see Johnson sitting by the end of the year.

 

[Empoleon8771]

With Johnson, I think Gonchar just needs to get the stupid decisions he makes in the defensive zone out of Johnson's game somewhat. If they're able to do that, I think he'd be a really solid defenseman. A perfect example of what I'm talking about is the Draisaitl goal, if Gonchar molds him to just not be a ****ing idiot and skate around the ice like that, I think the complaints about Johnson would be minimal.

The problem is that you can think of like 5 stupid mistakes Johnson has made in the defensive zone that have led to goals against already this year. I think this is the hardest test Gonchar has had as a coach in terms of reforming defensemen, you're trying to get a dumb player to change who has been in the league for a decade already. If he can do that, he deserves a shrine, because a Johnson that doesn't make stupid decisions in the defensive zone is a fantastic defenseman.

Do you know the sad part of this? Johnson must have had some really horrible coaches when he broke into the NHL, because playing more conservative shouldn't be hard to teach a defenseman to do. Johnson does the stuff like he did on the Draisaitl goal because his coaches never beat it into his head to not do that, it really shouldn't be that hard to tell Johnson "just play it safe instead of being high risk".

 

[Turin]

If changing the way players read plays was that easy coaches wouldn’t have a 4 year shelf life.

 

[Turin]

It's not Martin. It's the personnel. We're an older team now and our defense isn't especially good after the first pair. We used to be one of the fastest NHL teams but I no longer think this is the case. People mimicked what we did and now you see a lot of younger hungrier teams like the Devils, Canes, etc displaying all kinds of speed.

They’re not far off speedwise when Sid and Geno are going but the D really needs an adjustment. I’m not a big fan of anybody outside of the top 3, besides Riikola who is a question mark. Losing good Sheary without Sprong or Simon filling that hole is a loss too, at least in the regular season.

I’m just not sure if the problem is more that the D sucks now and the forward mix is off right now than actual speed. Then again, when Rust and Hagelin start showing up on the score sheet things might look different.

 

[Turin]

Worth remembering that this was likely still the 2nd best team in the league last year.

 

[DegenX]

I've been as frustrated with JJ as everyone, but I'm willing to give him more than 7 games to learn a new system with changing partners during that span.

 

[Peat]

It's not Martin. It's the personnel. We're an older team now and our defense isn't especially good after the first pair. We used to be one of the fastest NHL teams but I no longer think this is the case. People mimicked what we did and now you see a lot of younger hungrier teams like the Devils, Canes, etc displaying all kinds of speed.

Is it especially bad though? Like, this bad?

You could definitely get a better defence out of this team with a more defensive system. Whether a different coach could get better results out of the new system... I don't think it should be dismissed.

 

[EightyOne]

Who shouldn't be scratched? That list will be shorter and maybe we can all agree on that?

 

[AverageJoeFan]

So I missed the first two periods against EDM and I guess Sprong messed up at some point and now is for sure garbage?

I know one thing, playing 3 lines isn't what I want to see. By the end of the year this team will be in no shape to make a cup run if that is the case. 7 games in or not, HCMS needs to roll 4 lines. If you don't trust em, then trade em.

 

[Peat]

So I missed the first two periods against EDM and I guess Sprong messed up at some point and now is for sure garbage?

I know one thing, playing 3 lines isn't what I want to see. By the end of the year this team will be in no shape to make a cup run if that is the case. 7 games in or not, HCMS needs to roll 4 lines. If you don't trust em, then trade em.

People keep saying this but none of the forwards are racking up outrageous amounts of time. The situation isn't long term tenable but its not exhausting them or anything. And at 7 games in, trust or trade is too knee jerk.

 

[Pancakes]

Is it especially bad though? Like, this bad?

You could definitely get a better defence out of this team with a more defensive system. Whether a different coach could get better results out of the new system... I don't think it should be dismissed.

We're not getting new coaches for a while. When you win back to back Cups like this group has you get a pretty long leash. And rightfully so.