TV: The All - Encompassing Star Trek Thread. Debate Long + Prosper

Blender

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The "someone has to be Ensign" excuse is such a silly one. If that's the case, why not give Kim a much needed promotion and use it as an opportunity to introduce a new character as Ensign?

Regardless, I don't understand why they thought that the show needed an Ensign in the main cast in the first place. It's not like the show needed to show an accurate cross section of the entire crew, from lowly Ensign up to Captain. Like every other Trek series, it was a show that was heavily focused on the more senior officers, so it would make perfect sense for them to all be at least Lieutenants. I can't think of anyone in the regular or even semi-regular cast of TNG who was a mere Ensign. Wesley filled that role, but he had no rank and they eventually got rid of him. No one ever complained that TNG had no ensigns, since we all knew that the ship was littered with them, even if they didn't factor into episodes.
If they had just made him Lieutenant Kim and all the problems go away, so I have no idea why they made him an Ensign.

Star Trek Discovery has done a bit better job showing people of lesser rank with their focus on some department underlings, but the down side of this approach is that is you have no idea what some of the senior staff even do on the ship since you never see them much, if at all.
 

Daisy Jane

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The "someone has to be Ensign" excuse is such a silly one. If that's the case, why not give Kim a much needed promotion and use it as an opportunity to introduce a new character as Ensign?

Regardless, I don't understand why they thought that the show needed an Ensign in the main cast in the first place. It's not like the show needed to show an accurate cross section of the entire crew, from lowly Ensign up to Captain. Like every other Trek series, it was a show that was heavily focused on the more senior officers, so it would make perfect sense for them to all be at least Lieutenants. I can't think of anyone in the regular or even semi-regular cast of TNG who was a mere Ensign. Wesley filled that role, but he had no rank and they eventually got rid of him. No one ever complained that TNG had no ensigns, since we all knew that the ship was littered with them, even if they didn't factor into episodes.

I think the Harry/fresh eyed bushy tailed right out of "the Federation is Perfect so is Starfleet, HUZZAH" character made a lot of sense. had the show remembered what it was supposed to be.

Think about it. the guy gets a hot shot job right out of graduating from Star Fleet, then gets lost in the wilderness, with 1/2 a ship of people who thought that Starfleet/Federation is not hot poop. He should have been (you could have argued was) the Everything Bad happens to O'Brien' foil on Voyage. every experience he should have had should have been one knock against what he believed as a person, as an Officer, and as a Federation Citizen (They touched on it twice in that episode where he was back with Libby and in SF but it was 'corrupt' and then in Timeless where he was soooo bitter about how Starfleet treated him after all that time he was happy to die to fix his mistakes) He could have been a really complex character, flirting with mutiny (because it seemed right), flirting with the idea of maybe not even going home now because it was too tough. something. anything.

but they made him (like 98% of the cast) boring and "reset button'ed". so it stopped making sense.
 

The Nemesis

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I think the Harry/fresh eyed bushy tailed right out of "the Federation is Perfect so is Starfleet, HUZZAH" character made a lot of sense. had the show remembered what it was supposed to be.

Think about it. the guy gets a hot shot job right out of graduating from Star Fleet, then gets lost in the wilderness, with 1/2 a ship of people who thought that Starfleet/Federation is not hot poop. He should have been (you could have argued was) the Everything Bad happens to O'Brien' foil on Voyage. every experience he should have had should have been one knock against what he believed as a person, as an Officer, and as a Federation Citizen (They touched on it twice in that episode where he was back with Libby and in SF but it was 'corrupt' and then in Timeless where he was soooo bitter about how Starfleet treated him after all that time he was happy to die to fix his mistakes) He could have been a really complex character, flirting with mutiny (because it seemed right), flirting with the idea of maybe not even going home now because it was too tough. something. anything.

but they made him (like 98% of the cast) boring and "reset button'ed". so it stopped making sense.

Yeah. The problem with all of them was that they could've been complex.

  • Janeway could've better wrestled with the conflict between holding steadfast to Starfleet principles, trying to form a new sort of pseudo-Delta-Federation type thing, or going whole guns blazing "**** everything, we need to get home". But instead they made her schizophrenic.
  • Chakotay could've dealt more often with trying to help the Maquis crew integrate or handle their chafing under Starfleet rules, and his loyalties being torn between being the representative of his old crew or trying to foster the new, inclusive family on the ship. Instead they made him a company man.
  • Paris could've been a bit more of a cad/rebel who struggles with feeling crushed by Starfleet strictness because of his father. Instead the only time he got really dickish was when it was all an act
  • B'lanna could've dealt for longer with being disliked for getting promoted above all the Starfleet engineers and with her temper making her difficult to work with. Instead she snipes with Carey for a bit and then everything's cool.
  • Neelix could've had a proper crisis dealing with all the terrible **** that happened in his life or the fear that he's going to once again become a drifter with nowhere to belong. Instead he remains a cloying goofball.
  • Kes could've had to address her fleeting mortality or the rapid pace at which her relationships with everyone would have to change to accommodate the fact that she has to cram a whole life into 10-12 years. Instead she develops super powers, turns into a nightlight, and then flips her ****.
  • Tuvok could've had more problems trying to keep order on a ship that has a bunch of people who openly resent him for a) being a spy on the maquis ship) being a symbol of the repressive, rigid starfleet they all resent. And we got that in that one episode with the 4 maquis that were having the most issues, but that was pretty much it.

Of course, not everyone needed to be the above. Having some people that have some potential issues but end up finding their place and fitting right in was necessary to balance out all the potential drama. But they could've done so much more with at least a few people. Basically the only characters that actually got to fulfill some greater potential to also happen to (no so coincidentally) be the two characters that everyone agrees were the best part of the show: The Doctor and Seven.
 
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Daisy Jane

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Yeah. The problem with all of them was that they could've been complex.

  • Janeway could've better wrestled with the conflict between holding steadfast to Starfleet principles, trying to form a new sort of pseudo-Delta-Federation type thing, or going whole guns blazing "**** everything, we need to get home". But instead they made her schizophrenic.
  • Chakotay could've dealt more often with trying to help the Maquis crew integrate or handle their chafing under Starfleet rules, and his loyalties being torn between being the representative of his old crew or trying to foster the new, inclusive family on the ship. Instead they made him a company man.
  • Paris could've been a bit more of a cad/rebel who struggles with feeling crushed by Starfleet strictness because of his father. Instead the only time he got really dickish was when it was all an act
  • B'lanna could've dealt for longer with being disliked for getting promoted above all the Starfleet engineers and with her temper making her difficult to work with. Instead she snipes with Carey for a bit and then everything's cool.
  • Neelix could've had a proper crisis dealing with all the terrible **** that happened in his life or the fear that he's going to once again become a drifter with nowhere to belong. Instead he remains a cloying goofball.
  • Kes could've had to address her fleeting mortality or the rapid pace at which her relationships with everyone would have to change to accommodate the fact that she has to cram a whole life into 10-12 years. Instead she develops super powers, turns into a nightlight, and then flips her ****.
  • Tuvok could've had more problems trying to keep order on a ship that has a bunch of people who openly resent him for a) being a spy on the maquis ship) being a symbol of the repressive, rigid starfleet they all resent. And we got that in that one episode with the 4 maquis that were having the most issues, but that was pretty much it.

Of course, not everyone needed to be the above. Having some people that have some potential issues but end up finding their place and fitting right in was necessary to balance out all the potential drama. But they could've done so much more with at least a few people. Basically the only characters that actually got to fulfill some greater potential to also happen to (no so coincidentally) be the two characters that everyone agrees were the best part of the show: The Doctor and Seven.


basically. this show needed Ira Steven Behr. and co.

Honestly, I think this trek (above all others) actually needed more cast rotation. or at least permanent trauma. For example.
1: I would have killed Neelix when the Vidians came and took his lungs.. (this isn't even a "i hate Neelix" thing, I think truthfully, it would have slammed home that "you ain't in Kansas anymore, Starfleet" having an alien who can literally teleport your body parts out of you and then scamper away).

2: that alien who was a re-animated corpse of a Former crew member? She should have been front and centre for the first two-three seasons, killed off, then that episode would have had more meaning.

3: Kes should have died on the show from Natural causes being only 9 flipping years old (i also have to say. the Occampa thing never made sense. like. they are born, and we saw them at a normal "child" looking age. but how old are they? Kes was an adult (like can have sex and give birth herself) at 3 years old. but we've seen a "12 year old" looking Kess. interesting idea. dumb execution.


4: Tuvok should have been permanently blind, Janeway should have had that non-healing burn she got (not fixed). and the shipped shouldn't have always looked so shiny. like heck. Enterprise went about 10? episodes before it got to spacedock and repaired. Voyager should have had 3-4 years added to the total it took just for all the repairs they should have had one. it would have been nice to see iit.

we all know that Paris was actually supposed to be Nicolas Locarno - but they didn't want to pay the rights, and they watered the guy down (also note how almost everyone in starfleet are children of admirals? how many admirals are there?).

i think a constant reminder that they are alone, instead of the Magic Reset Button would have helped this show so much more (even if they wanted to keep it true to Roddenberry Ideals).

I did think Janeway not doing the Delta/Federation thing was dumb. you kinda thought that was always "there" because they had help sometimes, but then she'd be so insistent about not giving out tech (which is the whole point of the federation. share ideas). it was sort of like she only wanted to be Federation to a point (ie: prime directives (which should be a debate topic on its own). and not sharing tech) - but then when she needed something - cue the surprise that omg we can't get what we want).

all the potential. this show should have blown DS9 out of the water.
 
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The Nemesis

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basically. this show needed Ira Steven Behr. and co.

IIRC they had Behr for like a few months after Ds9 ended, but he got there, found that the head of the writers' room (I forget who it was. Piller? Moore?) hated him for vague, mostly unexplained reasons and froze him out of group work (I distinctly remember him finding out that they had moved the actual physical writers' room from a room on the Paramount lot to said head writer's house and Behr was explicitly not invited to that guy's house.) and basically pushed him into a little work bubble where he had to do what was given to him with no freedom. So as soon as his contract was up, he understandably bailed.

There was also strife between the writers that were there longer. I remember one writer made a bunch of early-season recurring characters like Suder and Carey and the guy who actually was selling them out to the Kazon, and Samantha Wildman and when Jeri Taylor took over, she was the head of the USS Reset Button contingent, so she systematically set about killing off all of those minor people so that there weren't dangling ongoing plot threads. Allegedly only Wildman escaped because they thought it was simply too cruel to leave Naomi an orphan (though in hindsight that might've been a good thing because it would've potentially pushed her into Neelix's care and given him something to do, fretting about having to be a parent to an alien girl he knows almost nothing about and potentially being reminded constantly of the little sister he doted on who died from that superweapon that was talked about in the one episode with the scientist/war criminal guy Neelix hated.)

Pretty much the whole writing process on Voyager sounds like the biggest, most petty pointless cluster**** you can possibly imagine.

2: that alien who was a re-animated corpse of a Former crew member? She should have been front and centre for the first two-three seasons, killed off, then that episode would have had more meaning.

Yep. They also should've had that other ensign who died in Latent Image pop up a few times before she died. Not enough to make her seem really super important, because part of the point of that episode is that the Doctor grapples with the belief that he only saved Harry because he considered himself close to Harry and didn't really know Ensign MacGuffin, but enough that having the doctor let her die feels like a serious thing for us as an audience. Hell, it would've been really good if it was one of those aforementioned recurring characters like Carey or someone. Maybe one of those ones who was a jerk because then you add the potential wrinkle of the Doctor also believing that his letting the not-Harry patient die was not only because Harry was his friend, but perhaps because he personally disliked the other one. Hell, maybe they could've combined the episode concepts. Ensign Ballard appears on the show in the prominent background role a la Leslie or Kyle or even Yeoman Rand from TOS for 2 or 3 years, then she dies in season 4ish in the Latent Image plot where the Doctor can't save both of them and has his Sophie's Choice moment and chooses not to save her over Harry. Then a little while later, the reanimated necro-alien version of her shows up and we get the triple whammy of the ramifications of her wanting to consider joining her old life again, Harry and the potential of his feelings for her (which would've added layers to Latent Image if Harry had to angst over to the Doctor's decision to save him instead of his would-be girlfriend and he had survivor's guilt because of it and the weirdness of seeing her alive again as an alien), and the Doctor being confronted with a an actual walking, talking symbol of the failure he couldn't get past without it breaking his holo psyche.

3: Kes should have died on the show from Natural causes being only 9 flipping years old (i also have to say. the Occampa thing never made sense. like. they are born, and we saw them at a normal "child" looking age. but how old are they? Kes was an adult (like can have sex and give birth herself) at 3 years old. but we've seen a "12 year old" looking Kess. interesting idea. dumb execution.

I can sort of understand the biology of the quick aging if we sort of assume that each human year sees the Ocampan go through about 7-12 years of growth and development. So 1-year-old Kes looks like she's a pre-teen, 2 year-old Kes is a late teenager, 3-year old Kes at the start of the series is somewhere in her mid 20s. The issue here of course would be that by the time we get to season 4 or 5 around when she left, she should've looked like she was in her 50s, but she just looked like a pretty, young late 20s/early 30s (because of course that's what Jennifer Lien was)

The bigger Ocampan issue was that apparently the women go through a mating/pregnancy cycle exactly once in their lives, and from what we see in Kes' life-in-rewind episode, have the same reproductive setup as humans and other humanoid species we see: She has 1 kid, and her daughter has 1 kid and she was an only child and it comes across like having a single kid per pregnancy is normal. But if that's the case, the Ocampan population growth should be negative. Each pair of parents has exactly 1 child, so each generation should be like half the size of the previous. Even if we were to accept some handwavey nonsense about the gender ratio being skewed waaaay female and that they have polygamous family units with 1 male to any large # of females (which there are zero pieces of evidence for in what we get to see of her species), you still produce less children than there are parents.

we all know that Paris was actually supposed to be Nicolas Locarno - but they didn't want to pay the rights, and they watered the guy down (also note how almost everyone in starfleet are children of admirals? how many admirals are there?).

There are a lot of Admirals. A quick scan of Memory Alpha shows like 50+ people of the specific rank of Admiral, mostly culled from names on computer displays throughout the show and named for production staff members. Plus a ton more if you include the other flag ranks (Fleet Admiral, Vice Admiral, Commodore, etc).

i think a constant reminder that they are alone, instead of the Magic Reset Button would have helped this show so much more (even if they wanted to keep it true to Roddenberry Ideals).

I did think Janeway not doing the Delta/Federation thing was dumb. you kinda thought that was always "there" because they had help sometimes, but then she'd be so insistent about not giving out tech (which is the whole point of the federation. share ideas). it was sort of like she only wanted to be Federation to a point (ie: prime directives (which should be a debate topic on its own). and not sharing tech) - but then when she needed something - cue the surprise that omg we can't get what we want).

all the potential. this show should have blown DS9 out of the water.

Yeah. The dumb thing was the adherence to not sharing tech made no sense when they were dealing with warp-capable species. It's not like she was handing nuclear bombs to cavemen.
 
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RobBrown4PM

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Wang comes to the YYC comic expo every year, I think I'm going to ask him what he thinks about Harry becoming a pseudo traitor and joining the marquis side of the crew, had that story line actually been done.

I might ask him about the writers situation and try to find out what the situation with the writers was actually like.
 

The Nemesis

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I was wrong about the specifics of some of the writer stuff above:

It wasn't Ira Steven Behr that got frozen and screwed by the voyager writing staff. It was Ron Moore. After Ds9 ended he was invited by Rick Berman to come work on Voyager. Of all people, the one that objected to his presence was his former writing partner on DS9, Brannon Braga. Braga moved the writers room to his house and Moore wasn't invited, so he bailed as soon as he could.

Michael Piller was the one that liked the "sense of desperation" and the grey-area recurring characters like Seska and Suder and Jonas (the guy that sold voyager out to Seska and the Kazon when they thought it might be Tom. Jeri Taylor was still the one that objected to those characters and had them all killed off (curiously, the recurring background character she didn't get killed off was Vorik. But it certainly couldn't have anything to do with his actor being her son, right? :laugh:) Braga also apparently didn't like "threading other writers' plotlines" and that was impetus to chuck out the serialization approach and go with reset-button, self-contained plots. Which is funny because he was also one of the guys that wanted to make the show a lot more like Year of Hell, which would've required serialization.

Jeri Taylor actually seems like she was a big part of the problem with Voyager. She (I think) was the one that wrote a lot of the "hardline moralizing stick-to-your-principles" Janeway because she thought it made the captain look strong and the audience wouldn't accept her as captain if she looked weak. She also, as noted above, didn't like grimy recurring characters. And I found when I was looking for the name of the traitor guy above, she pushed for a quick end to that "traitor on board" arc because she didn't like dickish insubordinate Tom. In fact, in the episode where that comes to a head, she said she was glad to be done with that arc and she thought the best part of the episode was Neelix's stupid Today Show morning program because "it was fun". Ugh...
 

Daisy Jane

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okay i'm watching Birthright from TNG. and i just have to say I am really surprised that the Klingons made it to the 24th century considering how easily they want to accept "death" for honour's sake
 

Osprey

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Yeah, Klingons probably compensate for their high fatality rate by mating like rabbits, rather like how, hundreds of years ago, couples had many more kids, since so many didn't survive birth or make it to adulthood. It could also be the other way around, where they naturally mate like rabbits and overpopulation reduced the value of each life and increased the importance of differentiating oneself from others through honor.
 

RobBrown4PM

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It is known that they are usually quite randy, especially when in battle. And it's known that they go in to battle with Female warriors.

Add two and two together and you get lots of little Klingon's.
 

Blender

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Klingons are based heavily off of human cultures that had a warrior caste that emphasized death in battle in service of the house/clan/tribe/state, so it's not as if it's unrealistic. Just because they are ready to due, doesn't mean they are at risk of dying at all times either though. I'm guessing most of their time isn't spent fighting actual enemies.
 

The Nemesis

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I'd say the bigger issue with the Klingons is that their oft-shown complete and total disdain for anyone who's not a warrior should've crippled their society generations ago. We see that people who fill other societal functions like scientists or non-combat engineers are looked down on and basically discouraged. So how do you keep a society alive if the majority of its people are going to be funneled into basically the most high-mortality job they have to offer, and only the smallest fraction will go to doing important things like engineering that doesn't involve guns, sciences, medicine, or anything that people need to not actually function. The first disaster or plague or anything significant that they couldn't stab into submission should've decimated the population.


also I just happened across this on youtube



:D
 

RobBrown4PM

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We have met a number of non warrior Klingons. I imagine most Klingons see the other castes as necessary but not as equal to the warrior caste
 

The Nemesis

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We have met a number of non warrior Klingons. I imagine most Klingons see the other castes as necessary but not as equal to the warrior caste

we have, but any time we've met them, they usually bemoan the fact that they're ridiculed or ignored or treated as less than being a warrior. Which creates the problem of how you're going to continue to convince younger Klingons to take up those jobs when even if you're a crappy warrior it still means you die an honorable death in battle and bring more honor to your family than if you're a scientist who works in a lab all day curing diseases and dies of old age eventually. They're accepted, but in a sort of "no son/daughter of mine is going to waste their life doing that. That's for the loser families to do" way. It's kind of like minimum wage or undesirable jobs in real life society, except that the things that might force people into taking those jobs likely won't play out for the Klingons because they would likely see the value in even letting terrible fighters into some kind of combat role simply because they can always use cannon fodder. I mean, we see people try to run Alexander off his Bird of Prey posting, but I doubt they'd object so strenuously to him if he were in the gruntiest of mobile infantry type units.

The only time we see a non-warrior caste treated with any degree of anything resembling respect is ship engineers, who at least get some recognition for being the ones who keep the warriors in the fight. But we've met a lawyer who complains that nobody wants to enter the profession, and a scientist who ends up going to other species scientific communities for validation because the Klingons ignored him since his invention lacked practical combat application.
 

Osprey

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So how do you keep a society alive if the majority of its people are going to be funneled into basically the most high-mortality job they have to offer, and only the smallest fraction will go to doing important things like engineering that doesn't involve guns, sciences, medicine, or anything that people need to not actually function.

I imagine that a warrior race like them captures a lot of the things that they need. They might be a bit like the Vikings, where they raid the planets of other civilizations, either taking what they want or demanding tribute (in the form of goods and technology). We also know that they trade for things, like the cloaking technology that they got from the Romulans. They may also subjugate inferior beings, either on their own planets or others, making them do the manufacturing and such that they, themselves, aren't willing to do.

The first disaster or plague or anything significant that they couldn't stab into submission should've decimated the population.

On the other hand, there may be a few benefits to the Klingon way of life that mitigate some of that. For example, a Klingon who falls ill might kill himself before spreading a plague to others. You don't need resources and labor tied up in a health industry if people would rather die than try to be healed. Also, Klingons who are victims of disaster may just be allowed to die, rather than many more lives being endangered by trying to rescue them. We humans save a lot of lives by being so caring, but we also endanger a lot to that end. Maybe the Klingon way is shockingly more effective in some areas.
 

SJSharksfan39

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I'd say the bigger issue with the Klingons is that their oft-shown complete and total disdain for anyone who's not a warrior should've crippled their society generations ago. We see that people who fill other societal functions like scientists or non-combat engineers are looked down on and basically discouraged. So how do you keep a society alive if the majority of its people are going to be funneled into basically the most high-mortality job they have to offer, and only the smallest fraction will go to doing important things like engineering that doesn't involve guns, sciences, medicine, or anything that people need to not actually function. The first disaster or plague or anything significant that they couldn't stab into submission should've decimated the population.


also I just happened across this on youtube



:D


That was the best scene featuring Root Beer I've ever seen. The criticisms against the Federation in Season 4 are pretty valid (This one, and later on with Eddington compared the Federation to the Borg).
 

peate

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I just revisited the Star Trek Continues website and saw they have some new episodes. If you are a fan of the original series, this is a must see. The setting and props are exactly the same and the chief engineer is Scotty's son. The cast takes a bit of getting used to, especially the Captain, but overall, it's very enjoyable.

Star Trek Continues
 

Blender

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I imagine that a warrior race like them captures a lot of the things that they need. They might be a bit like the Vikings, where they raid the planets of other civilizations, either taking what they want or demanding tribute (in the form of goods and technology). We also know that they trade for things, like the cloaking technology that they got from the Romulans. They may also subjugate inferior beings, either on their own planets or others, making them do the manufacturing and such that they, themselves, aren't willing to do.
Yea I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned a number of times that the Klingon Empire is an empire because they have control over a lot more species than just Klingons, so I;m guessing some of their subject species are much more focused on things other than fighting and that the Klingons use them for that. Klingon society seems to be based around the strong warrior caste which they use to put the boot to others to get what they need.
 

Daisy Jane

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That was the best scene featuring Root Beer I've ever seen. The criticisms against the Federation in Season 4 are pretty valid (This one, and later on with Eddington compared the Federation to the Borg).

I'm watching Descent, and it is really mindboggling that Neycheov is yelling at Picard for not committing genocide against the Borg.

I always loved the root beer scene. it pretty much nailed the Federation to a tee right there.
 

Nolan Bombgardener

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Speaking of promotions and stuff, I vaguely remember Tuvok's rank fluctuating during the run of Voyager. I'm quite certain he had 2.5 pips on his collar in the pilot, but ended up with 2 afterwards, and then was promoted to Lt. Cmdr. again. Like what the hell...especially since he was supposed to be like 60 years old and had served under Sulu on the Excelsior...was he held back or something?
 

Daisy Jane

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Speaking of promotions and stuff, I vaguely remember Tuvok's rank fluctuating during the run of Voyager. I'm quite certain he had 2.5 pips on his collar in the pilot, but ended up with 2 afterwards, and then was promoted to Lt. Cmdr. again. Like what the hell...especially since he was supposed to be like 60 years old and had served under Sulu on the Excelsior...was he held back or something?

after the events on the Excelsior he actually took a quite length break from Starfleet. i think it was like he had just come back for a few years or something before the pilot.
 

Blender

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Speaking of promotions and stuff, I vaguely remember Tuvok's rank fluctuating during the run of Voyager. I'm quite certain he had 2.5 pips on his collar in the pilot, but ended up with 2 afterwards, and then was promoted to Lt. Cmdr. again. Like what the hell...especially since he was supposed to be like 60 years old and had served under Sulu on the Excelsior...was he held back or something?
after the events on the Excelsior he actually took a quite length break from Starfleet. i think it was like he had just come back for a few years or something before the pilot.
He was a Lieutenant at the start of the series and was promoted to Lieutenant Commander in Season 4 (googled: Revulsion (episode) ). Yes though, he left Starfleet for a long time but was supposed to have been back in it for 20 years prior to the series, which is why he had known and served with Janeway before the show.
 

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