TV: The All - Encompassing Star Trek Thread. Debate Long + Prosper

Cloned

Begging for Bega
Aug 25, 2003
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I don't know, Threshold is pretty bad.

I'm not a big fan of Voyager in general, but overall none of its seasons are as bad on the whole as TNG1-2. Some of those episodes in TNG1-2 are just cringeworthy, and have aged even worse than TOS has due to their overall moral tone. Watching TNG1-2 just gives me this weird, uncomfortable vibe.
 

Osprey

Registered User
Feb 18, 2005
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Nothing is worse at trying to be Star Trek and, instead, making a mockery of it than Discovery. Exhibit A: those Klingons...

I think it was Jonathan Frakes that said the first couple of seasons felt like they tried to hard to ape TOS and came off as too corny and cringey. IIRC he compared it to "putting on your parents' clothes and play-acting." and I agree.

They didn't know what they were doing because there was no template for what Star Trek was outside of Kirk and crew. They were making it up as they went and they slowly figured it out. I appreciate that, through it, though, Roddenberry stuck to his principles for Trek and didn't let his writers re-invent them, which allowed the series to eventually turn into what it did.
 
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Cloned

Begging for Bega
Aug 25, 2003
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Nice try at baiting me to bring that into this thread, but I'm not going to. I think my posts in the Discovery thread are verbose enough to thoroughly detail my argument anyway. ;)
 

Osprey

Registered User
Feb 18, 2005
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It's too late. You took the bait when you trashed the first two seasons of TNG because I defended them while trashing modern Trek. You can't spit it back out now ;).
 

Blender

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Dec 2, 2009
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The first two seasons of TNG are terrible. Clunkers like "Justice" and "The Royale" and "Angel One" represent the very worst of trying to be Star Trek but making a mockery of it.

The only thing worse than TNG1 and TNG2 is TOS3.
This post is missing the worst TNG episode of them all; Code of Honor.
 

Cloned

Begging for Bega
Aug 25, 2003
79,447
65,488
It's too late. You took the bait when you trashed the first two seasons of TNG because I defended them while trashing modern Trek. You can't spit it back out now ;).

lol, not everything is about you. ;)

I don't like early TNG regardless of your feelings (or mine) on modern Trek. It's near the bottom of televised Trek for me. Like I said, it ages worse than TOS - which has a timeless quality to it - whereas early TNG is just filled with forced, antiquated over-the-top moral allegories that aren't executed particularly well.
 

Ducks in a row

Go Ducks Quack Quack
Dec 17, 2013
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Are there any Voyager fans. I did enjoy the series (minus the final season) and part of it was watching it as I was growing up. I know it’s probably the least liked series here but I was wondering if anyone else did like it. There’s some good debate topics Voyager did address.

I like it but not as much as TOS,TNG and DS9. I like it more then ENT. I like it a lot more then STD which I don't like.

I liked both Kes and to a lesser extent Neelix. Neelix had his moments at least.

Neelix character was annoying to me. Kes character could of been so much better.

I don't know, Threshold is pretty bad.

I wouldn't call it pretty bad I would call it terrible.
 

Cloned

Begging for Bega
Aug 25, 2003
79,447
65,488
I would call it the worst Star Trek episode ever, but Threshold exists, so...

There are some bad ones.

"Let He Who Is Without Sin..."

"Spirit Folk"

"Shades of Grey"

"The Way to Eden"

"Profit and Lace"

Although my personal worst is "Justice." I get the hate for Threshold and Code of Honor, but for me Justice is what happens when you try too hard to be Star Trek and it ends up backfiring in the worst way.
 

Osprey

Registered User
Feb 18, 2005
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lol, not everything is about you. ;)

...says the guy who, in the other thread, makes everything about me, rather than debating my criticism ;).

I would call it the worst Star Trek episode ever, but Threshold exists, so...

Which Voyager episode is it when Paris and Janeway turn into slugs and have involuntary slug sex? Can we nominate that for worst ever?
 
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Blender

Registered User
Dec 2, 2009
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...says the guy who, in the other thread, makes everything about me, rather than debating my criticism ;).



Which Voyager episode is it when Paris and Janeway turn into slugs and have involuntary slug sex? Can we nominate that for worst ever?
Threshold. :laugh:
 

Osprey

Registered User
Feb 18, 2005
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Threshold. :laugh:

Really? Haha. Ok, I think that we're all on the same page, then. That's precisely the episode that made me stop watching Voyager. In fact, I'm not entirely sure that I even finished the episode. I might've just turned the TV off. I'd rather watch Shades of Grey.

Edit: @RobBrown4PM below... Oh, they were lizards? Ok. I've never gone back and re-watched the episode. I guess that that makes more sense than slugs having sex... not that the episode made sense, anyways. BTW, you'd be amazed at the number of links that Google retrieves on the topic of slug sex. A lot of big sites like the Washington Post, The Guardian and Slate are apparently fascinated with the love lives of slugs.
 
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The Nemesis

Semper Tyrannus
Apr 11, 2005
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Langley, BC
Threshold is, to my knowledge, the only episode of Trek that was so hated by the staff that they essentially declared it non-canon.

There are later episodes that explicitly contradict the existence of Threshold and no one cares because it was that awful.
 

Blender

Registered User
Dec 2, 2009
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Really? Haha. Ok, I think that we're all on the same page, then. That's precisely the episode that made me stop watching Voyager. In fact, I'm not entirely sure that I even finished the episode. I might've just turned the TV off. I'd rather watch Shades of Grey.

Edit: @RobBrown4PM below... Oh, they were lizards? Ok. I've never gone back and re-watched the episode. I guess that that makes more sense than slugs having sex... not that the episode made sense, anyways. BTW, you'd be amazed at the number of links that Google retrieves on the topic of slug sex. A lot of big sites like the Washington Post, The Guardian and Slate are apparently fascinated with the love lives of slugs.
You must have watched the entire thing, since the lizard part is at the end. The majority of the episode is stupid, but peak stupidity isn't reached until the end when half-lizard Paris kidnaps Janeway, exceeds warp 10 to transform her, lands on a planet, and they have lizard sex and make some lizard babies.

Tom-Paris-Kathryn-Janeway-Lizard-Threshold-Star-Trek-Voyager.jpeg
 

Osprey

Registered User
Feb 18, 2005
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Thanks, Blender. I really needed the photo and detailed plot summary that brought it all back and the reminder that they made lizard babies ;).
 

Blender

Registered User
Dec 2, 2009
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Thanks, Blender. I really needed that photo, the detailed plot summary that brought it all back and the reminder that they made lizard babies ;).
If we're all scarred by that trash, you should be as well. :sarcasm:
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
70,240
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Threshold is, to my knowledge, the only episode of Trek that was so hated by the staff that they essentially declared it non-canon.

There are later episodes that explicitly contradict the existence of Threshold and no one cares because it was that awful.


yah. like there were other references to slipstream drive/past warp ten without any mention of turning into lizards
 

Blender

Registered User
Dec 2, 2009
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the long ladder is pretty up there too.
Agreed Up the Long Ladder is one of the worst as well, but Code of Honor isn't just terrible, it's racist as f***. Otherwise I'd be tempted to say Sub Rosa is the worst imo.

For anyone who doesn't remember it, Sub Rosa is the one where Crusher has sex with a ghost that lives in a lamp, who used to f*** her grandma.
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
70,240
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Agreed Up the Long Ladder is one of the worst as well, but Code of Honor isn't just terrible, it's racist as ****. Otherwise I'd be tempted to say Sub Rosa is the worst imo.

For anyone who doesn't remember it, Sub Rosa is the one where Crusher has sex with a ghost that lives in a lamp, who used to **** her grandma.


Up the Long Ladder is.. well it's not racist but it's sterotypical as heck as well.
hahaha Sub Rosa. who thought "Let's make Beverly have sex with a Lamp Ghost" was a good story. oi.
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
70,240
9,248
to channel @The Nemesis, here's my "You need to have these people watch these episodes if they've not watched Trek. I'll start with Enterprise.


1: Broken Bow - where we first meet our plucky crew of the NX-01 and learn about everything the series will be about.

2: The Andorian Incident + Shadows of P'Jem- where we first meet the Andorians, and we truly see this is the 'wilderness' years of Starfleet, nothing is happy plucky go lucky, Federation. Vulcans are shady as hell, and the Andorians are cool. (also. Jeffrey Combs. the end). also these two episodes have consequences that you feel through the entire series

3: Fusion + Stigma + This will actually show you everything we knew about Vulcans before was off. Mind Melds seen as Taboo? this also triggers T'Pol's entire storyline through the rest of the series, these two events. (as well as other episodes as well)

4: Dear Doctor: Basically the premise/birth of the Prime Directive. (I'm pretty sure it's this episode). The PD is something most people love to debate, and to see it in it's first forms I think is necessary.

5: The Expanse: Signals the end of "Enterprise trying to be 'Star Trek' - and deciding to do its own thing and being better for it. (even though it creates an event that no one knew about in the future - the Swatch cut from Florida to Venezuela, triggering events between Trip + T'Pol (yet not explaining why Trip: was born in Florida, raised in Florida, still lived in Florida had a drawl stronger stronger than a glass of sweet tea). and basically creating Braga's "Year of Hell" (that Voyager should have had) - but in Enterprise.

6: Impulse, Azati Prime and Damage. I'm cheating but i feel these three stories are linked. This is where we see the climax of what Fusion/Stigma impacted on T'pol, how far Archer will go to do things (more so than any other Captain, maybe excluding Sisko). and - actiony bits!!

7: Borderland, ColdStation 12 and the Auguments; Season 4 is "arch" season, so I think truly, it's a given that some of these arcs would be suggested. This one has ties to TOS, + DS9 (genetics) and of course TNG (with the cybernetic shoutout at the end). also it ties into

8: Affliction + Divergence (Though - if you thought this was a cop out to explain the Klingon Ridges - you could by pass this)

9: The Forge, Awakening + Kir'Shara: basically explaining how Vulcans became Vulcans (before) and how they'll become Vulcans that we know and love (later), including mindmelds. EVERYTHING (from the first few suggested episodes, come to ahead here as well). also. we get our first hint of reunification (why it's always Romulans who want to Conquer Vulcan vs. them coming together in peace is beyond me this is never addressed

10: Demons + Terra Prime - basically how the series should have ended and you saw the heading of Coalition of Planets

HM: Regeneration... basically anything in season 4 (like more Andorian/Tellerites stuff, and things that showed how in season 1 - how far apart everyone was, and how in season 4 - it makes total sense for them to even talk about being a federation (at somepoint). Oh, you could do the Organians episode as well. actually i would for sure.

Would totally avoid: anything with the temporal time war. That crap made zero sense to me (and you can sort of hand-wave it in Broken Bow). I still don't get how the Suliban people are even involved in it. I know i cheated with the arcs - but i think with Enterprise (and DS9) as they were more serialized than the other series, you kind of need to do 'arcs' with those shows. you could though HM most of the arcs and pick the 'best story without missing too much I think.
 

The Nemesis

Semper Tyrannus
Apr 11, 2005
88,343
31,715
Langley, BC
You must have watched the entire thing, since the lizard part is at the end. The majority of the episode is stupid, but peak stupidity isn't reached until the end when half-lizard Paris kidnaps Janeway, exceeds warp 10 to transform her, lands on a planet, and they have lizard sex and make some lizard babies.

Tom-Paris-Kathryn-Janeway-Lizard-Threshold-Star-Trek-Voyager.jpeg

And then they just leave the babies there because SUCK IT, ALIEN ECOSYSTEM!
 

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