The AAA Draft Final Series: London Bandits vs. Regina Pat Canadians
- Thread starter VanIslander
- Start date
Dreakmur
Registered User
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Dreakmur
Registered User
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
TDMM is certainly not. He's an hfboards product, through and through.
He did join leafscentral a couple months back because he can't stay away from ATDs. He's not participating, he's just been there as a commentator, invalid argument corrector, and voice of reason.
Dreakmur
Registered User
We need one of those, and I'm certainy not qualified....
Either way, I was confusing this draft, where I'm helping TDMM, and next draft, where I'm helping Hedberg.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
We need one of those, and I'm certainy not qualified....
Either way, I was confusing this draft, where I'm helping TDMM, and next draft, where I'm helping Hedberg.
Two-timer
I joined because jarek, my co-GM in the MLD at the time, asked me for advice on LF ATD, which was going on at the same time. I kind of regret it now.
I'll try to make some posts about this actual series tomorrow.
Dreakmur
Registered User
Two-timer
After I helped LF in the ML draft....
I'm pretty much a research ****.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
London Bandits
Coach: Emile "The Cat" Francis
Red Green - Guy Chouinard - Jiri Lala
Danny Lewicki - Mike Bullard - Steve Sullivan
Jörgen Pettersson- Michal Handzus - Alexander Skvortsov
Colin Patterson - Todd Marchant - Randy McKay (A)
Olli Jokinen, Rob Zamuner
Alexei Zhitnik (A) - Bob Trapp
Mark Streit (C) - Percy Traub
Arthur Moore - Marek Zidlicky
Joel Quenneville
Reggie Lemelin
Niklas Backstrom
Coach: Emile "The Cat" Francis
Red Green - Guy Chouinard - Jiri Lala
Danny Lewicki - Mike Bullard - Steve Sullivan
Jörgen Pettersson- Michal Handzus - Alexander Skvortsov
Colin Patterson - Todd Marchant - Randy McKay (A)
Olli Jokinen, Rob Zamuner
Alexei Zhitnik (A) - Bob Trapp
Mark Streit (C) - Percy Traub
Arthur Moore - Marek Zidlicky
Joel Quenneville
Reggie Lemelin
Niklas Backstrom
PP1: Red Green - Mike Bullard - Jiri Lala - Mark Streit - Guy Chouinard
PP2: Danny Lewicki - Steve Sullivan - Randy McKay - Alexei Zhitnik - Marek Zidlicky
PK1: Todd Marchant - Colin Patterson - Alexei Zhitnik - Bob Trapp
PK2: Michal Handzus - Jörgen Pettersson - Arthur Moore - Percy Traub
PK3: Steve Sullivan - Danny Lewicki - Alexei Zhitnik - Bob Trapp
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Jiri Lala and Jason Allison
These guys are keys to the offensive attacks of their respective teams. I think they have the two best offensive peaks in the AAA draft by a pretty good margin, but neither man did anything outside of his relatively short peak. Lala is primarily a goal scorer, but learned how to be a good playmaker too (see his profile). Allison is primarily a playmaker, but can score goals too.
Since neither player accomplished anything of note outside of his peak, I'm just going to compare their peaks here.
Jason Allison
Much easier to rank his place vs. the world's best, as they pretty much all played in the NHL by the time he peaked.
Allison, like Lala, had 4 notable seasons over a 5 year stretch, then didn't do much outside this time period. He was top 10 in assists in 97-98, 98-99, 00-01, 01-02 and had injury-riddled seasons in 99-00 and 02-03. Before this time frame, he wasn't even a half a point per game player, and he only played one season afterwards as a PP specialist/major liability for the Leafs post-lockout.
From 97-98 to 00-02, Allison was 11th in points and 13th in points per game. Source=hockeyreference
He had 356 points over this time frame, good for 11th. Of those less than 50 points behind him, Ron Francis (354), Jeremy Roenick (349), Brendan Shanahan (334), Keith Tkachuk (331), Peter Forsberg (328 in fewer games) and Steve Yzerman (322), John Leclair (317), Patrik Elias (316), Jarome Iginla (313) all brought more to the table. So is it fair to say that Allison was approximately the 20th best forward in the world over this 5 year stretch?
Add in defensemen and goaltenders, and Allison is anywhere from the 35th to 40th best player in the world during his 5 year peak. It sounds unimpressive, but it's better than almost every other player in the AAA draft.
Jiri Lala
The best non-NHL, non-Soviet player in the world for 5 years, then did nothing else. But how does he stack up against the World's best?
This draft, we found complete Golden Stick voting for the "best player in Europe," as voted on by the various hockey federations. This is how Lala placed:
3rd in 1981
4th in 1982
3rd in 1983
DNP in 1984
4th in 1985
(For what it's worth, he also led the Czechoslovaks in goals and points in the Worlds all 4 of these years).
Due to vote splitting among Soviets, is it safe to say that Lala was approximately the 5th best non-NHLer in the world for this 5 year stretch? I think that's fair.
But what does the 5th best non-NHLer mean? Most of the best non-Soviets in the world were in the NHL by the early 80s - even Lala's countryman Peter Stastny.
Note: The following analysis is flawed but I left it here because it might interest some.
This is a very rough attempt at quantifying that, based on the assumption that there were a similar proportion of NHL-capable Euros in the 1980s as there are today. I think that's a defendable assumption, since as western and northern europe developed greater hockey programs, the former eastern block regressed from the government-funded days.
Time to turn to pnep
According to pnep's chart, the number of Canadians in the NHL has remained pretty static from the 1980s until today (ranging from 499 to 581, but usually between 530 and 560... not a huge difference) However, the number of Europeans in the NHL was about 50 in the 1980s, rising dramatically after the fall of the Iron Curtain in the early 90s, before settling a range where there were about half as many Euros as Canadians in the 2000s. For simplicity sake, I'll say 250 Europeans playing in the NHL per year in the 2000s (the actual numbers on the chart range from 260-290, but I'll round down to cut out some fringe players).
250-50 = approximately 200 NHL capable Euros playing in Europe in the 1980s. Compare to about 650 players actually playing in the NHL per season. So we'll say an "NHL capable" talent pool of about 850.
So that would make Lala 5th best out of 200 NHL-capable Europeans. 5 X (850 total players /200 Europeans) = 21.25
Conclusion: Based on a variety of assumptions, Lala was approximately the 21st best player in the world over a 5 year stretch. This is an extremely rough approximation, but I think it's the best we can do to have any hope of comparing him to NHLeres.
Caveat: After going through all this effort, I realized I forgot an important thing: The Euros actually in the NHL in the 80s were better than the average NHL Euros today. Only the very best players from Finland and Sweden plus the Stastnys (who were surely better than your average NHL-capable Czech/Slovak) were in the NHL at the time. So therefore, Lala would have less than the expected competition for the Golden Stick awards. So the 21st best player in the world is the absolute best Lala could have been, but he was likely worse than that.
Anyone have any comments on a better methodology I could use to rank Lala?
These guys are keys to the offensive attacks of their respective teams. I think they have the two best offensive peaks in the AAA draft by a pretty good margin, but neither man did anything outside of his relatively short peak. Lala is primarily a goal scorer, but learned how to be a good playmaker too (see his profile). Allison is primarily a playmaker, but can score goals too.
Since neither player accomplished anything of note outside of his peak, I'm just going to compare their peaks here.
Jason Allison
Much easier to rank his place vs. the world's best, as they pretty much all played in the NHL by the time he peaked.
Allison, like Lala, had 4 notable seasons over a 5 year stretch, then didn't do much outside this time period. He was top 10 in assists in 97-98, 98-99, 00-01, 01-02 and had injury-riddled seasons in 99-00 and 02-03. Before this time frame, he wasn't even a half a point per game player, and he only played one season afterwards as a PP specialist/major liability for the Leafs post-lockout.
From 97-98 to 00-02, Allison was 11th in points and 13th in points per game. Source=hockeyreference
He had 356 points over this time frame, good for 11th. Of those less than 50 points behind him, Ron Francis (354), Jeremy Roenick (349), Brendan Shanahan (334), Keith Tkachuk (331), Peter Forsberg (328 in fewer games) and Steve Yzerman (322), John Leclair (317), Patrik Elias (316), Jarome Iginla (313) all brought more to the table. So is it fair to say that Allison was approximately the 20th best forward in the world over this 5 year stretch?
Add in defensemen and goaltenders, and Allison is anywhere from the 35th to 40th best player in the world during his 5 year peak. It sounds unimpressive, but it's better than almost every other player in the AAA draft.
Jiri Lala
The best non-NHL, non-Soviet player in the world for 5 years, then did nothing else. But how does he stack up against the World's best?
This draft, we found complete Golden Stick voting for the "best player in Europe," as voted on by the various hockey federations. This is how Lala placed:
3rd in 1981
4th in 1982
3rd in 1983
DNP in 1984
4th in 1985
(For what it's worth, he also led the Czechoslovaks in goals and points in the Worlds all 4 of these years).
Due to vote splitting among Soviets, is it safe to say that Lala was approximately the 5th best non-NHLer in the world for this 5 year stretch? I think that's fair.
But what does the 5th best non-NHLer mean? Most of the best non-Soviets in the world were in the NHL by the early 80s - even Lala's countryman Peter Stastny.
Note: The following analysis is flawed but I left it here because it might interest some.
This is a very rough attempt at quantifying that, based on the assumption that there were a similar proportion of NHL-capable Euros in the 1980s as there are today. I think that's a defendable assumption, since as western and northern europe developed greater hockey programs, the former eastern block regressed from the government-funded days.
Time to turn to pnep
According to pnep's chart, the number of Canadians in the NHL has remained pretty static from the 1980s until today (ranging from 499 to 581, but usually between 530 and 560... not a huge difference) However, the number of Europeans in the NHL was about 50 in the 1980s, rising dramatically after the fall of the Iron Curtain in the early 90s, before settling a range where there were about half as many Euros as Canadians in the 2000s. For simplicity sake, I'll say 250 Europeans playing in the NHL per year in the 2000s (the actual numbers on the chart range from 260-290, but I'll round down to cut out some fringe players).
250-50 = approximately 200 NHL capable Euros playing in Europe in the 1980s. Compare to about 650 players actually playing in the NHL per season. So we'll say an "NHL capable" talent pool of about 850.
So that would make Lala 5th best out of 200 NHL-capable Europeans. 5 X (850 total players /200 Europeans) = 21.25
Conclusion: Based on a variety of assumptions, Lala was approximately the 21st best player in the world over a 5 year stretch. This is an extremely rough approximation, but I think it's the best we can do to have any hope of comparing him to NHLeres.
Caveat: After going through all this effort, I realized I forgot an important thing: The Euros actually in the NHL in the 80s were better than the average NHL Euros today. Only the very best players from Finland and Sweden plus the Stastnys (who were surely better than your average NHL-capable Czech/Slovak) were in the NHL at the time. So therefore, Lala would have less than the expected competition for the Golden Stick awards. So the 21st best player in the world is the absolute best Lala could have been, but he was likely worse than that.
Anyone have any comments on a better methodology I could use to rank Lala?
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EagleBelfour
Registered User
I never heard of Jiri Lala before this draft, but he seems like a definite first line player in the AAA draft. His stats and exploit are conclusive to a certain extent, but it would be nice to find some quotes on him and his style of play. At this point in time, he definitely deserve his spot. I really like the overall feel of the Bandits first line, a well constructed line.
As an O6 ERA fan, I always tried to find a spot for Lewicki in the MLD, but without success. I am unsure of Bullard's speed, but both wings on this line will fly down and gonna be exciting to watch.
I really like the Petterson - Handzus duo at this level. I imagine they will also kill penalties together. I am unsure of Skvortsov on the right side. I'll be honest that I know as much on him as TDMM bio, but I don't see his role on this line. I would move Patterson on that right side if you intend to use your 3rd line as a defensive minded line.
Randy McKay as to be an elite 4th liner in this draft. Jokinen stats are good for a AAA draft, but I wouldn't like him getting any ice-time.
Trapp is an amazing first pairing defenseman in this draft. I thought I had read some stuff on him in the Trail of the Stanley Cup book, someone should dig it up.
Traub seem like a nice player. The ''He's getting AS nod without racking up points so he must be good defensively'' argument his enticing, but I would love to see one or two quotes on that. We have some good newspaper digger in the ATD! I'm surprise too see Mark Streit with the captaincy. I'm not saying he's not a good leader, but part of him being the Switz captain his because he's clearly the best player on his team. Again, the Bandits isn't a team full a leadership and McKay might not play enough minutes to warrant the C.
Arthur Moore look like an amazing fifth defenseman. Those newspaper clips makes me think that his short career his the only reason he could not play the same role he do on the Bandits in the MLD.
Lemelin is a fantastic goaltender at the AAA level, that should backup a team in the MLD instead of being stuck in the AAA. Backstrom is a competent backup. I really like what I saw of him in the last couple of years and this warrant his selection.
And to top it off, ''The Cat'' as the coach! I havn't followed the AAA draft, but it's no surprise to see such a strong team in the final. Kudos to TDMM.
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Why I'm not surprise to see 70's as the other finalist? Move on ...
Martin Havlat is definitely a player that has the offensive instinct to play on a AAA top-2 line. However, I don't see him bringing much else. Jason Allison is the Clint Smith/Kent Nilsson of the AAA draft: not good enough to play on an offensive line in the higher level, but an All-Star at his level. Allison is always regarded as the best offensive player of the AAA and for good reason. Scott Mellanby is the RW this line needed. It's not a very fast line. Havlat is a competent two-way player, but I wonder if his speed, his best skill to create offensive chances, will hurt him playing with two notable slew footed. But the Mellanby-Allison is deadly to say the least.
I only knew Carson by name, but 70's bio is tremendous to say the least. He's definitely a competent player on a 2nd line. Golikov is an offensive juggernaut, while Craven can play both side of the ice. Well constructed 2nd line. Kudos!
Tippett - Zezel - Murphy is a typical ATD 3rd line. Murphy is definitely captain material. Zezel is definitely strong enough to contribute offensively once in a while.
That 4th line is elite as much as 4th line can be. Dutch Hiller is an elite 3rd liner in the AAA draft, let alone 4th line (Hiller in the MLD anyone?) He's a tremendous skater with good defensive instinct and he's as tough and strong as anyone in this draft. That's not all: Stemkowski is another elite 4th liner. Big, strong two way-player. It's the guy you want in the faceoff circle with a minute left in the game, either on the offensive or defensive zone. And last but not least Howie Meeker. Another rugged forward, not afraid of anything or anyone. Easily my favourite line in this duel.
All and all, the Canadiens are extremely strong down the middle.
I think Jack Ruttan should of been the captain of this team. Anyway, 70's chose wisely the letters for his team. I'm unsure as to Ruttan being a number1 defenseman in this draft, my explanation is simple: information? I know he's an HHOF as a player, but Ruttan was so highly regarded as a person that it probably affected the outcome of the voting . It definitely stray away from previous thing I've say, but we have found SO much information in the last few drafts about hundreds of players, maybe I feel there's should be some information somewhere on an HHOF like Ruttan. If you decide to go with Ruttan on your team, Manery is definitely a nice partner for him.
I'm surprise to see Bob Plager available in the AAA, he's definitely the type of defenseman I would love to have on my third pair in the MLD. Someone who can log big minutes, decent on both hand on the ice and someone you seldom mess around with. Paladiev is a bit in the same mold as Plager. I really like that 2nd pairing.
And if Plager and Paladiev was not enough to rock your world, you add Bill Juzda into the mix. I'm not sure he was anything more than a extremely hard hitter, but in that department he was elite. As for Malakhov, I have to express my disdain since am I am a Montreal Canadiens fan. A marvelous talent who should of ended up in the ATD when it was all said and done, but when a player shows up one every 7 games, you end up as a number6 defenseman in the AAA draft. I can always understand having head cases when they play a prominent role on your team, but as far as Vladimir Malakhov goes, I would of let him alone. Let him log big minutes in the AA and feel like a star. Actually, Sargent would be tremendous with Juzda.
I like the case 70's put up for Jirà KrálÃk. He's definitely an elite goaltender at this level, just like Lemelin. I would of like to read on his style, how he played his position. I don't like when a player is only stats on a sheet, but I understand it's sometime hard to find info like that. Potvin is definitely no slouch as a backup goaltender. in my mind, both team have a very strong goaltending group, let's call it a draw.
I like Muckler as an assistant, I never been a fan of him being THE coach on a team, but I think Crisp - Muckler is a very fine duo.
=============================
So that's it for my view on this matchup. It's been very fun taking a couple of hours to write about hockey, when the only thing Aussie have in mind is cricket (I'm really starting to like this sport, am I starting to lose my mind?)
Good luck to both TDMM and 70's
As an O6 ERA fan, I always tried to find a spot for Lewicki in the MLD, but without success. I am unsure of Bullard's speed, but both wings on this line will fly down and gonna be exciting to watch.
I really like the Petterson - Handzus duo at this level. I imagine they will also kill penalties together. I am unsure of Skvortsov on the right side. I'll be honest that I know as much on him as TDMM bio, but I don't see his role on this line. I would move Patterson on that right side if you intend to use your 3rd line as a defensive minded line.
Randy McKay as to be an elite 4th liner in this draft. Jokinen stats are good for a AAA draft, but I wouldn't like him getting any ice-time.
Trapp is an amazing first pairing defenseman in this draft. I thought I had read some stuff on him in the Trail of the Stanley Cup book, someone should dig it up.
Traub seem like a nice player. The ''He's getting AS nod without racking up points so he must be good defensively'' argument his enticing, but I would love to see one or two quotes on that. We have some good newspaper digger in the ATD! I'm surprise too see Mark Streit with the captaincy. I'm not saying he's not a good leader, but part of him being the Switz captain his because he's clearly the best player on his team. Again, the Bandits isn't a team full a leadership and McKay might not play enough minutes to warrant the C.
Arthur Moore look like an amazing fifth defenseman. Those newspaper clips makes me think that his short career his the only reason he could not play the same role he do on the Bandits in the MLD.
Lemelin is a fantastic goaltender at the AAA level, that should backup a team in the MLD instead of being stuck in the AAA. Backstrom is a competent backup. I really like what I saw of him in the last couple of years and this warrant his selection.
And to top it off, ''The Cat'' as the coach! I havn't followed the AAA draft, but it's no surprise to see such a strong team in the final. Kudos to TDMM.
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Why I'm not surprise to see 70's as the other finalist? Move on ...
Martin Havlat is definitely a player that has the offensive instinct to play on a AAA top-2 line. However, I don't see him bringing much else. Jason Allison is the Clint Smith/Kent Nilsson of the AAA draft: not good enough to play on an offensive line in the higher level, but an All-Star at his level. Allison is always regarded as the best offensive player of the AAA and for good reason. Scott Mellanby is the RW this line needed. It's not a very fast line. Havlat is a competent two-way player, but I wonder if his speed, his best skill to create offensive chances, will hurt him playing with two notable slew footed. But the Mellanby-Allison is deadly to say the least.
I only knew Carson by name, but 70's bio is tremendous to say the least. He's definitely a competent player on a 2nd line. Golikov is an offensive juggernaut, while Craven can play both side of the ice. Well constructed 2nd line. Kudos!
Tippett - Zezel - Murphy is a typical ATD 3rd line. Murphy is definitely captain material. Zezel is definitely strong enough to contribute offensively once in a while.
That 4th line is elite as much as 4th line can be. Dutch Hiller is an elite 3rd liner in the AAA draft, let alone 4th line (Hiller in the MLD anyone?) He's a tremendous skater with good defensive instinct and he's as tough and strong as anyone in this draft. That's not all: Stemkowski is another elite 4th liner. Big, strong two way-player. It's the guy you want in the faceoff circle with a minute left in the game, either on the offensive or defensive zone. And last but not least Howie Meeker. Another rugged forward, not afraid of anything or anyone. Easily my favourite line in this duel.
All and all, the Canadiens are extremely strong down the middle.
I think Jack Ruttan should of been the captain of this team. Anyway, 70's chose wisely the letters for his team. I'm unsure as to Ruttan being a number1 defenseman in this draft, my explanation is simple: information? I know he's an HHOF as a player, but Ruttan was so highly regarded as a person that it probably affected the outcome of the voting . It definitely stray away from previous thing I've say, but we have found SO much information in the last few drafts about hundreds of players, maybe I feel there's should be some information somewhere on an HHOF like Ruttan. If you decide to go with Ruttan on your team, Manery is definitely a nice partner for him.
I'm surprise to see Bob Plager available in the AAA, he's definitely the type of defenseman I would love to have on my third pair in the MLD. Someone who can log big minutes, decent on both hand on the ice and someone you seldom mess around with. Paladiev is a bit in the same mold as Plager. I really like that 2nd pairing.
And if Plager and Paladiev was not enough to rock your world, you add Bill Juzda into the mix. I'm not sure he was anything more than a extremely hard hitter, but in that department he was elite. As for Malakhov, I have to express my disdain since am I am a Montreal Canadiens fan. A marvelous talent who should of ended up in the ATD when it was all said and done, but when a player shows up one every 7 games, you end up as a number6 defenseman in the AAA draft. I can always understand having head cases when they play a prominent role on your team, but as far as Vladimir Malakhov goes, I would of let him alone. Let him log big minutes in the AA and feel like a star. Actually, Sargent would be tremendous with Juzda.
I like the case 70's put up for Jirà KrálÃk. He's definitely an elite goaltender at this level, just like Lemelin. I would of like to read on his style, how he played his position. I don't like when a player is only stats on a sheet, but I understand it's sometime hard to find info like that. Potvin is definitely no slouch as a backup goaltender. in my mind, both team have a very strong goaltending group, let's call it a draw.
I like Muckler as an assistant, I never been a fan of him being THE coach on a team, but I think Crisp - Muckler is a very fine duo.
=============================
So that's it for my view on this matchup. It's been very fun taking a couple of hours to write about hockey, when the only thing Aussie have in mind is cricket (I'm really starting to like this sport, am I starting to lose my mind?)
Good luck to both TDMM and 70's
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Wednesday is Voting Day
The 2010 AAA Final Series winner and three stars send to me, VanIslander.
The 2010 AAA Final Series winner and three stars send to me, VanIslander.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I am not avoiding discussing this series. I am having serious computer issues! I will be off work on Tuesday so I'll be putting in my two cents.
EB - thanks, that was an outstanding review of the series - I've never seen its equal at the AAA or AA level.
EB - thanks, that was an outstanding review of the series - I've never seen its equal at the AAA or AA level.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
More Lala
This is probably pretty unimportant to the series, but I think I figured out where I went wrong in my Lala comparison analysis. I said:
"So that would make Lala 5th best out of 200 NHL-capable Europeans. 5 X (850 total players /200 Europeans) = 21.25"
Which completely ignores the better Europeans in the NHL!
From 80-81 to 85-86, the following Europeans were top 20 in scoring: Peter Stastny (3rd), Jari Kurri (6th), Kent Nilsson (11th). Anton Stastny was 23rd in NHL scoring, which may make him better than Lala over the time period. Then there was Salming, past his prime, but still an effective player in the NHL.
So Lala, being the 5th best European player in Europe probably made him more like the 10th best European player in the world, even in the early 80s (when only the best of the best from western and northern Europe came over). And if you look at pnep's charts that I posted in the flawed analysis above, you'll see that since the mid 90s, generally 1/4 to 1/3 of the NHL talent pool has been drawn from Europe. So 10th best Euro player would be approximately the 30th-40th best overall player in the world over this 5 year stretch.
Basically, I just did a long, twisted analysis that concludes that Lala is close enough to equal in value to Allison as each team's "offensive ringer." If they cancel each other out, this series will be determined by the rest of the players on each team.
If voting is tomorrow, I'll come back to make a post about matchups tonight.
This is probably pretty unimportant to the series, but I think I figured out where I went wrong in my Lala comparison analysis. I said:
"So that would make Lala 5th best out of 200 NHL-capable Europeans. 5 X (850 total players /200 Europeans) = 21.25"
Which completely ignores the better Europeans in the NHL!
From 80-81 to 85-86, the following Europeans were top 20 in scoring: Peter Stastny (3rd), Jari Kurri (6th), Kent Nilsson (11th). Anton Stastny was 23rd in NHL scoring, which may make him better than Lala over the time period. Then there was Salming, past his prime, but still an effective player in the NHL.
So Lala, being the 5th best European player in Europe probably made him more like the 10th best European player in the world, even in the early 80s (when only the best of the best from western and northern Europe came over). And if you look at pnep's charts that I posted in the flawed analysis above, you'll see that since the mid 90s, generally 1/4 to 1/3 of the NHL talent pool has been drawn from Europe. So 10th best Euro player would be approximately the 30th-40th best overall player in the world over this 5 year stretch.
Basically, I just did a long, twisted analysis that concludes that Lala is close enough to equal in value to Allison as each team's "offensive ringer." If they cancel each other out, this series will be determined by the rest of the players on each team.
If voting is tomorrow, I'll come back to make a post about matchups tonight.
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TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Thanks for your take on the series, EB. Much appreciated and I agree with most of it.
I'm really starting to think that he's pretty close in value to Jason Allison, which would make him good enough to be a 1st line winger in the MLD (since wing is a less deep position than center). I mean, he lead the Czech team in points in the WCs 4 times in 5 years, and this was a team that still had ATD center Novy on it.
This is the only quote we have about his style of play, from Lala himself:
"My opponents started noticing me more, so I started passing more often so as not to attract attention… It is hard to say what brought me more joy – scoring myself or having made a successful pass to someone else. It was just as nice to hear a word of thanks from a successful scoring player. Besides, it gave me the feeling that I wasn’t just playing hockey for myself."
Basically, he seems to have started out primarily as a goal scorer, but learned to incorporate playmaking into his game. If you look at his WC stats, they seem to support this.
1981 - 4th in goals, 7th in points
1982 - 3rd in goals, 6th in points
1983 - 1st in goals, 3rd in points
1984 - what happened to him? (I don't know)
1985 - 2nd in goals, 2nd in points.
We know nothing about his defensive play or intangibles, so we can only assume he doesn't bring much there.
Nothing has been written about Bullard's speed, either good or bad. He's the big, gritty center to compliment fast, but small wings.
Skvortsov is there to give the line offense in the counterattack. He played quite a bit for the Soviet National Teams without being part of one of their high end 5 man units (coming over from Gorky Torpedo, and not one of the Moscow based clubs), so he's used to playing on a lower line, though not a checking line (the Soviets didn't really use checking lines, I don't think).
As for the matchups, I'll post them (and a finalized checkinng line) tonight.
I really need to get that book. Right now, all we know is that he was very good, he "delivered toughness in spades," and his offense was decent (but likely not as good as his defense, as evidenced by his All Star nods in the Western league).
I don't really have time before voting day to dig for him. I agree that more info for Trapp and Traub would be useful (as it would for Ruttan).
Right, I think the problem is that the Bandits two best natural leaders (McKay followed by Marchant) were both 4th liners in the regular season. But you don't really need a letter to be a leader, and I think it's obvious McKay is the leader in the dressing room, even if the C is worn by a guy getting more ice time.
Oh and for what it's worth, I changed the team's second A from Bullard to Zhitnik during lineup assassinations, but forgot to change it on the roster post.
Thanks!
I'm really starting to think that he's pretty close in value to Jason Allison, which would make him good enough to be a 1st line winger in the MLD (since wing is a less deep position than center). I mean, he lead the Czech team in points in the WCs 4 times in 5 years, and this was a team that still had ATD center Novy on it.
This is the only quote we have about his style of play, from Lala himself:
"My opponents started noticing me more, so I started passing more often so as not to attract attention… It is hard to say what brought me more joy – scoring myself or having made a successful pass to someone else. It was just as nice to hear a word of thanks from a successful scoring player. Besides, it gave me the feeling that I wasn’t just playing hockey for myself."
Basically, he seems to have started out primarily as a goal scorer, but learned to incorporate playmaking into his game. If you look at his WC stats, they seem to support this.
1981 - 4th in goals, 7th in points
1982 - 3rd in goals, 6th in points
1983 - 1st in goals, 3rd in points
1984 - what happened to him? (I don't know)
1985 - 2nd in goals, 2nd in points.
We know nothing about his defensive play or intangibles, so we can only assume he doesn't bring much there.
Nothing has been written about Bullard's speed, either good or bad. He's the big, gritty center to compliment fast, but small wings.
Skvortsov is there to give the line offense in the counterattack. He played quite a bit for the Soviet National Teams without being part of one of their high end 5 man units (coming over from Gorky Torpedo, and not one of the Moscow based clubs), so he's used to playing on a lower line, though not a checking line (the Soviets didn't really use checking lines, I don't think).
As for the matchups, I'll post them (and a finalized checkinng line) tonight.
I really need to get that book. Right now, all we know is that he was very good, he "delivered toughness in spades," and his offense was decent (but likely not as good as his defense, as evidenced by his All Star nods in the Western league).
I don't really have time before voting day to dig for him. I agree that more info for Trapp and Traub would be useful (as it would for Ruttan).
Right, I think the problem is that the Bandits two best natural leaders (McKay followed by Marchant) were both 4th liners in the regular season. But you don't really need a letter to be a leader, and I think it's obvious McKay is the leader in the dressing room, even if the C is worn by a guy getting more ice time.
Oh and for what it's worth, I changed the team's second A from Bullard to Zhitnik during lineup assassinations, but forgot to change it on the roster post.
Thanks!
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
I do agree with 70s that Allison is good enough to play on a 2nd line in the MLD. I think he's better than quite a few of the regular 2nd liners in the MLD (what makes Scott Gomez a step up from Allison, for example?) The only reason I didn't select him as a 2nd line center is because I thought he'd be a horrible fit next to Bertuzzi.
As for "best offensive player at the AAA level," I think he at least has some competition from Lala, now that we finally know just how well thought of Lala was in Europe in the early 80s.
I was definitely critical of Havlat's potential wasted speed in the lineup assassinations, but sometimes two slower guys can really be sparked by a fast player.
70s top line is probably his team's biggest strength, and if I post nothing else after this, it will be to say how the Bandits plan on countering this line.
I think Ruttan is likely good enough for a top pairing, and might be the best defenseman at this level, but I wish we knew more too. Like, we know his counterpart on London Alexei Zhitnik played huge minutes in all situations and was very good in a couple of playoff runs. I just wish we had some kind of idea as to Ruttan's strengths other than just "good enough to be enshrined."
It's too bad 70s doesn't seem like he has time to scour the newpapers for Ruttan right now (as I don't for Trapp and Traub).
Malakhov was very effective as NJ's #5 in 2000 (he was 4th in ice time apparently but 5th in important from what I remember), so I think he can take on a lesser role. I think it might be better for him than trying to be a star at a lower level. Personally, I wouldn't have picked him though.
MadArcand
Whaletarded
I read an interview with him recently. Didn't talk much about his style of play, but talked a lot about powerplays and how they played them and his role in them. Apparently he played at the half-boards/corners and was either attempting passes across slot/crease or one-timing on such passes from other wing.
Don't think that's much useful info, but I just thought I'd share it.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Goaltending and coaching
I'm using EB's post as a springboard for discussing goaltending and coaching.
Agreed. It's tempting to be really impressed with the fact that Kralik had a good career in Europe, peaking at being voted the very best player in Europe on one occasion. But then Lemelin was a finalist for the Vezina Trophy twice (Overall Vezina record of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 7th, 7th), which is outstanding for this level.
I'm willing to call goaltending a wash in general, though I think of Kralik's lack of World Championships experience is similar to a question mark about ability to handle playoffs. While Lemelin had several very good playoff runs (see his profile), most notably his trip to the finals in 1988, when he had a 11-6, with a much better save % than the average goalie that playoff year.
In short, I think goaltending is basically equal, though Lemelin is much more proven in playoff-type situations, as far as I can tell.
Yup. Emile Francis is an excellent coach for London, but it's hard not to say Regina has the edge in that category.
I'm using EB's post as a springboard for discussing goaltending and coaching.
Agreed. It's tempting to be really impressed with the fact that Kralik had a good career in Europe, peaking at being voted the very best player in Europe on one occasion. But then Lemelin was a finalist for the Vezina Trophy twice (Overall Vezina record of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 7th, 7th), which is outstanding for this level.
I'm willing to call goaltending a wash in general, though I think of Kralik's lack of World Championships experience is similar to a question mark about ability to handle playoffs. While Lemelin had several very good playoff runs (see his profile), most notably his trip to the finals in 1988, when he had a 11-6, with a much better save % than the average goalie that playoff year.
In short, I think goaltending is basically equal, though Lemelin is much more proven in playoff-type situations, as far as I can tell.
Yup. Emile Francis is an excellent coach for London, but it's hard not to say Regina has the edge in that category.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
London's Desired matchup - Handzus will check Allison
Jason Allison is Regina's biggest offensive threat by a good margin, and Michal Handzus is just the center to check him. Handzus is the perfect guy to match up against a big, not so speedy, skilled center like Jason Allison. At 6'4", Handzus has a big wing span, and he's noted for his strength, defensive play, and puck control.
Allison's wingers are good, but they aren't as good as he is, so I wouldn't be surprised to see London change on the fly to get Handzus in particular out there against Allison, regardless of the wings.
But Handzus's normal left wing will be Jörgen Pettersson, another large two-way player who can bump bodies with Scott Mellanby. Depending on the score and situation, Handzus's right wing will be either Alexander Skvortsov or Colin Patterson. Both men can play both sides of the ice, so they should be able to make the switch.
If London is defending a lead late in the game, Colin Patterson will get the big ice time on Handzus's right side to go opposite Havlat. If London is trailling, Skvortsov will get more ice time to trade chances with Havlat, while Handzus and Pettersson continue to check Allison and Mellanby (while offering a decent among of offense on their own).
Regina has a slightly better coaching staff, so Emile Francis definitely won't be able to get the matchup he wants all the time. But I'm okay with any of the other lines out there against Allison. The Chouinard line will take primarily offensive zone draws (as much as that is possible), but doesn't really give away anything offensively with Lala out there. The Bullard line, has good two-way wings, and Marchant and McKay are obviously very good defensively. But Handzus will be the primary matchup against Allison and should be matched up against him more often than not in home games.
Jason Allison is Regina's biggest offensive threat by a good margin, and Michal Handzus is just the center to check him. Handzus is the perfect guy to match up against a big, not so speedy, skilled center like Jason Allison. At 6'4", Handzus has a big wing span, and he's noted for his strength, defensive play, and puck control.
Allison's wingers are good, but they aren't as good as he is, so I wouldn't be surprised to see London change on the fly to get Handzus in particular out there against Allison, regardless of the wings.
But Handzus's normal left wing will be Jörgen Pettersson, another large two-way player who can bump bodies with Scott Mellanby. Depending on the score and situation, Handzus's right wing will be either Alexander Skvortsov or Colin Patterson. Both men can play both sides of the ice, so they should be able to make the switch.
If London is defending a lead late in the game, Colin Patterson will get the big ice time on Handzus's right side to go opposite Havlat. If London is trailling, Skvortsov will get more ice time to trade chances with Havlat, while Handzus and Pettersson continue to check Allison and Mellanby (while offering a decent among of offense on their own).
Regina has a slightly better coaching staff, so Emile Francis definitely won't be able to get the matchup he wants all the time. But I'm okay with any of the other lines out there against Allison. The Chouinard line will take primarily offensive zone draws (as much as that is possible), but doesn't really give away anything offensively with Lala out there. The Bullard line, has good two-way wings, and Marchant and McKay are obviously very good defensively. But Handzus will be the primary matchup against Allison and should be matched up against him more often than not in home games.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I have, and there is nothing out there through the usual channels. He played manitoba senior hockey so it's next to impossible getting stuff in the eastern papers.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Right. I ran into the same problem with Steamer Maxwell in the MLD.
The only thing I found was an interview with him after he was enshrined in the HHOF where he said he was absolutely shocked he had been inducted. 
