The 2011 AAA Draft Championship Series: Quad City Mallards vs. St. John's Ice Caps

[VanIslander]

The 2011 AAA Draft Final


The Ambrose O'Brien champion
Quad City Mallards

coaches Mike Buckna, Glen Sonmor

Johnny Sheppard (A) - Mike Walton - Wayne Connelly
Dutch Gainor - Viktor Yakushev (C) - Darcy Rota
Killer Kaleta - Larry Popein - Gerry Couture
Doug Smail - Andre Savard - David Backes
Paul Ranheim, Stanislav Petukhov

Al Dewsbury (A) - Don Sweeney
Harold Snepsts - Dmitri Mironov
Poul Popiel - Boris Mironov
Sean O'Donnell

Mike Palmateer
Andy Aitkenhead


vs.


The Frederic McLaughlin champion
St. John's Ice Caps

coach Bruce Boudreau

Armand Mondou - Jimmy Carson - John Anderson
Shawn McEachern (A) - Walt McKechnie - Petr Klima
Curtis Brown - David Legwand - Ric Seiling
Keith McCreary (A) - Bill Derlago - Floyd Smith
Real Chevrefils, Dennis Ververgaert

Al MacNeil (C) - Paul Cavallini
Ed Kea - Yuri Shatalov
Dale Rolfe - Jean Potvin
Todd Gill, Brent Burns

Jake Forbes
Frank McCool

​

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

At first glance:

St. Johns has the better defensive corps and Jimmy Carson is the most skilled forward here.

Quad City has better offensive depth and probably has better goaltending.

In the playoffs, I'd be tempted to give the coaching advantage by default to the team that doesn't have Boudreau, but how many playoff series did the father of Czechoslovakian hockey coach in? (I honestly don't know)

 

[Rob Scuderi]

At first glance:

St. Johns has the better defensive corps and Jimmy Carson is the most skilled forward here.

Quad City has better offensive depth and probably has better goaltending.

In the playoffs, I'd be tempted to give the coaching advantage by default to the team that doesn't have Boudreau, but how many playoff series did the father of Czechoslovakian hockey coach in? (I honestly don't know)

I'm glad you asked about Buckna because I was able to find a decent bit of info.

He coached LTC Praha to 3 Czech league titles in 5 years. He began his Czech national coaching career in 1935 (at age 22) which ended with him winning a World Championship in 3 attempts, a second place finish during the '48 Olympics, and finally 3 "European titles".

He went 7-1 in the '48 OG losing to only Canada for the second place finish. In the '38 WC they finished 3rd with a 3-2-1 record (W-L-T) behind first place Canada, and Great Britain. '39 WC he led them to a 3-4-2 4th place finish behind Canada, USA, and Switzerland. His last crack at the WC in '47 was his winner, interestingly there were no WCs played in between these years so it's not just Buckna who was punished by the wars. The team finished 6-0-1 for first place and the first ever European country to win the title.

Buckna began his career in Czechoslovakia coaching LTC Praha, and they were fairly touted in their own right, which led to his eventual position with the national team.

At the time, LTC had already established itself as one of the top club teams in Europe and had gained respect in 1934 in Canada with its 1-0 win over the World Champion Saskatoon Quakers, in 1934. At the age of 21, the former Trail Smoke Eater had become one of the top players on the Prague club.

He was first displaced by WWII and went home to Canada before returning to Czechoslovakia after the war to do his best work yet. His win in the '47 WC was the first ever by a European club and the next year was his Olympic silver. But then a in a recurring theme Buckna is displaced as he leaves the country due to a communist coup. He ends his career coaching teams in BC and the junior Trail Smoke Eaters. This comes despite the fact he was offered the opportunity to coach the Canadian national team in '56.

I know the era is dubious especially compared to a modern day coach but if he already got by a much better modern coach in Wilson I'm feeling much more confident next to BB.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Coach: Mike Buckna
Assistant Coach: Glen Sonmor

Johnny Sheppard(A) - Mike Walton - Wayne Connelly
Dutch Gainor - Viktor Yakushev(C) - Darcy Rota
Killer Kaleta - Larry Popein - David Backes
Doug Smail - Andre Savard - Gerry Couture
Paul Ranheim - Stanislav Petukhov

Al Dewsbury(A) - Don Sweeney
Harold Snepsts - Boris Mironov
Sean O'Donnell - Dmitri Mironov
Poul Popiel

Mike Palmateer
Andy Aitkenhead

Mallards Special teams:
PP1: Gainor-Walton-Connelly-B Mironov-D. Mironov
PP2: Sheppard-Yakushev-Rota-Dewsbury-D. Mironov

PK1: Savard-Smail-O'Donnell-Sweeney
PK2: Popein-Backes-Snepsts-B. Mironov

A few changes for the Mallards in this series. TDMM made it quite clear there's no secret how teams played against Carson and with him leading the way for St. John's I've adjusted a bit.

I'm switching out Popiel for O'Donnell and switching the Mironovs. Popiel's biggest assets were his contributions to the PP and physical game. O'Donnell brings a much more physical and defensively strong game than Popiel and his PP contributions shouldn't be missed. Dmitri averaged 19 adjusted PP points a year, and Boris 18. I plan to now just double-shift Dmitri on the PP as I moved him down to the third pair with O'Donnell. These changes give me a very physically formidable group that should give Carson a lot of trouble. The newly formed Boris and Snepsts pair is an especially physical pair and Boris still provides the capable puck-moving presence that keeps Snepsts insulated.

TDMM also suggested St. John's defensive group is better than mine and this may be true but I think my group is exactly what you want for Carson. I said before I had six defenders with a gritty presence but that group just upgraded Popiel to O'Donnell so I just don't see how you could match it up better. I do understand why St. John's group as a whole could be considered better and it has the better voting record, which is pretty much the most substantive metric for defenders, but I'll try to provide a closer look later on.

The other small change is switching Couture and Backes. I had Couture on the line to provide a big body who can score goals. Backes does that with a better defensive record and much more pronounced physical game. He'll fit in just fine next to the playmaking Kaleta, and already physical Popein.

 

[jkrx]

Coach: Mike Buckna
Assistant Coach: Glen Sonmor

Johnny Sheppard(A) - Mike Walton - Wayne Connelly
Dutch Gainor - Viktor Yakushev(C) - Darcy Rota
Killer Kaleta - Larry Popein - David Backes
Doug Smail - Andre Savard - Gerry Couture
Paul Ranheim - Stanislav Petukhov

Al Dewsbury(A) - Don Sweeney
Harold Snepsts - Boris Mironov
Sean O'Donnell - Dmitri Mironov
Poul Popiel

Mike Palmateer
Andy Aitkenhead

Mallards Special teams:
PP1: Gainor-Walton-Connelly-B Mironov-D. Mironov
PP2: Sheppard-Yakushev-Rota-Dewsbury-D. Mironov

PK1: Savard-Smail-O'Donnell-Sweeney
PK2: Popein-Backes-Snepsts-B. Mironov

A few changes for the Mallards in this series. TDMM made it quite clear there's no secret how teams played against Carson and with him leading the way for St. John's I've adjusted a bit.

I'm switching out Popiel for O'Donnell and switching the Mironovs. Popiel's biggest assets were his contributions to the PP and physical game. O'Donnell brings a much more physical and defensively strong game than Popiel and his PP contributions shouldn't be missed. Dmitri averaged 19 adjusted PP points a year, and Boris 18. I plan to now just double-shift Dmitri on the PP as I moved him down to the third pair with O'Donnell. These changes give me a very physically formidable group that should give Carson a lot of trouble. The newly formed Boris and Snepsts pair is an especially physical pair and Boris still provides the capable puck-moving presence that keeps Snepsts insulated.

TDMM also suggested St. John's defensive group is better than mine and this may be true but I think my group is exactly what you want for Carson. I said before I had six defenders with a gritty presence but that group just upgraded Popiel to O'Donnell so I just don't see how you could match it up better. I do understand why St. John's group as a whole could be considered better and it has the better voting record, which is pretty much the most substantive metric for defenders, but I'll try to provide a closer look later on.

The other small change is switching Couture and Backes. I had Couture on the line to provide a big body who can score goals. Backes does that with a better defensive record and much more pronounced physical game. He'll fit in just fine next to the playmaking Kaleta, and already physical Popein.

My physical d-men didnt help agaisnt Carson.

 

[Velociraptor]

I'll post my special teams and initial analysis later. A few quick points on the series.

For the two-way style that the Ice Caps play, the Mallards flat out offensive unit will have their hands full from the grit and defensive play that will be demonstrated by St. John's. Sheppard-Walton-Connelly is a very talented offensive line, but I really question the lines effectiveness because of lack of a strong defensive forward, against our defensive corps, Johnny Sheppard just isn't a very strong two-way player. The line won't come up with much at all defensively, and definitely won't be able to match up well defensively against any of the Ice Caps' forward lines.

Secondly, I think the addition of O'Donnell both helps and hurts your team. The subtraction of Popiel leaves a huge offensive hole on the back-end, I don't think Mironov is the strongest option to quarterback your power play, let alone man both units.

Having a predominant physical defensive unit is smart, especially having a rugged rearguard like Snepsts, but like they were able to in the last series, the wingers on Carson's line, or McEachern and McKechnie on Klima's line, will be able to entertain the defenders, making it easier for the offensive catalysts to get their desired chances.

I concur with TDMM's points in Carson being the best offensive forward, Quad City having the better offensive depth and St. John's having the better defensive depth. But I definitely will not conclude that the Mallards have a goaltending edge, I will expand on this when I'm able to access my computer.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

My physical d-men didnt help agaisnt Carson.

I can't read apparently. Hopefully Dewsbury, Snepsts, and co. hold up better this time than Orlando and your group I guess.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

I'll post my special teams and initial analysis later. A few quick points on the series.

For the two-way style that the Ice Caps play, the Mallards flat out offensive unit will have their hands full from the grit and defensive play that will be demonstrated by St. John's. Sheppard-Walton-Connelly is a very talented offensive line, but I really question the lines effectiveness because of lack of a strong defensive forward, against our defensive corps, Johnny Sheppard just isn't a very strong two-way player. The line won't come up with much at all defensively, and definitely won't be able to match up well defensively against any of the Ice Caps' forward lines.

That's certainly been the challenge for my first line. None of the three are big and only Sheppard brings toughness. This line does lack a substantive two-way presence but then again it's my top line trying to score. Your first line is certainly better as it has the superlative Carson but if I'll post up the differences between our other first-liners later. Mondou particularly underwhelms in top-line role despite his role as the policeman of the line.

Secondly, I think the addition of O'Donnell both helps and hurts your team. The subtraction of Popiel leaves a huge offensive hole on the back-end, I don't think Mironov is the strongest option to quarterback your power play, let alone man both units.

I would have agreed with you last series, which is why I've been playing Popiel all along, but I really underrated how offensively-utilized the Mironovs really were.

D. Mironov: 54% PP usage over career with an adjusted 19PP points a year.
B. Mironov: 45%PP usage over career with an adjusted 18PP points a year.

To compare:
Jean Potvin: 56% PP usage with an adjusted 21PP points a year.
Paul Cavallini: 26% PP usage with an adjusted 8PP points a year.

This shows what we know in that Potvin is the the best PP guy here, but more surprisingly I think is Cavallini's numbers. He wasn't as strong a PP player as either of these three players, but instead the better defensive and two-way guy. It seemed like Popiel needed to pick up some slack but I think the opposite is true.

It's definitely clear Dewsbury was the better offensive player than MacNeil as well. And can you explain how Shatalov belongs at all? He didn't score internationally and I really have no idea how significant 28 goals in 428 Soviet league games. I didn't see his offensive game mentioned anywhere so I'm not seeing his placement here. It seems like I could just as easily put up a defensive-minded player with at least a few documented PP points and still have a better group of PP defenders.

Having a predominant physical defensive unit is smart, especially having a rugged rearguard like Snepsts, but like they were able to in the last series, the wingers on Carson's line, or McEachern and McKechnie on Klima's line, will be able to entertain the defenders, making it easier for the offensive catalysts to get their desired chances.


I concur with TDMM's points in Carson being the best offensive forward, Quad City having the better offensive depth and St. John's having the better defensive depth. But I definitely will not conclude that the Mallards have a goaltending edge, I will expand on this when I'm able to access my computer.

Agreed though you do have a good cast of rugged forwards to help those forwards. There's no question Carson's the best offensive player and I agree we sorta have the opposite strengths here. I've been trying to look at our goaltender comparison as well so I'm interested what you have to say about Forbes.

 

[VanIslander]

I have said all along that Boudreau has not proven himself capable of doing anything when it matters most. Yeah, he got a star-studded cast to have a couple of great regular seasons, even got them to play against their nature and backcheck and be more defensive. But he tries to fit a round peg into a square hole. Just look at how he has MISUSED Semin (Is Klima this squad's Semin?). Great coaches adapt to their resources and get the most out of their players: not ram one style down their throat. Boudreau may be a one-trick pony whose ride is short and whose legacy is thin. There's nothing in the underachieving coach's career to suggest he has what it takes to lead a team to a championship. Shame on anyone who thought Boudreau a good pick but Bobrov a bad pick. His peak was greater than his career, though both weren't long or great, and some really overvalue his talent as coach. He is a Double-A draft assistant coach at best. There are at least four undrafted coaches with a better combination of peak, career and talent in hockey history.

 

[Velociraptor]

St. John's Ice Caps

General Manager: Velociraptor
Head Coach: Bruce Boudreau
Captain: Al MacNeil
Assistant Captains: Keith McCreary, Shawn McEachern

Armand Mondou - Jimmy Carson - John Anderson
Shawn McEachern - Walt McKechnie - Petr Klima
Curtis Brown - David Legwand - Ric Seiling
Keith McCreary - Bill Derlago - Floyd Smith
Spares: Real Chevrefils LW, Dennis Ververgaert RW

Al MacNeil - Paul Cavallini
Ed Kea - Yuri Shatalov
Dale Rolfe - Jean Potvin
Spares: Todd Gill, Brent Burns

Jake Forbes
Frank McCool

PP1: Klima - Carson - Anderson - Cavallini - Potvin
PP2: McEachern - McKechnie - Mondou - MacNeil - Potvin

PK1: Mondou - Derlago - MacNeil - Kea
PK2: Seiling - McKechnie - Rolfe - Shatalov
​

We'll move Potvin to our second unit as well, he won't be getting a heavy workload at even strength, so he'll be able to spend the majority of his time quarterbacking the power play. Shatalov isn't overly offensive, but he was very quick, and able to make good breakout passes to his forwards.

Okay, we know now Cavallini isn't the best power play defenseman, but he's not out of place. Dmitri Mironov is also better than I anticipated.

Also, I see what you're getting at, but I wouldn't call Mondou underwhelming. He's essentially Alex Kaleta, but in an earlier era, and a little more renown for playing grittier. I wouldn't think Kaleta on your first line would be a negative at all. Mondou's combination of playmaking and forechecking is integral to the lines success, as he will be able to get Carson the puck from grinding it out, or he'll be able to get under the skin of the Mallards' forwards or defenseman, causing them to possibly commit penalties out of frustration. His place on the first line is very fitting, and at that point in the draft there was no better player who demonstrated a mix of what Mondou has been known to excel at.

Here's what I can begin with for a goaltending comparison, as it may be very difficult to actually compare.



Hart Voting:

Jake Forbes:
1923-24: 7th
1924-25: T-9th

Mike Palmateer:
1978-79: 5th

Palmateer has the higher placing, but Forbes was recognized more than once for being very valuable to his team.

Games played:

Forbes:
1922-23 NHL 24 (1)
1923-24 NHL 24 (1)
1924-25 NHL 30 (1)
1925-26 NHL 36 (1)
1926-27 NHL 44 (1)

Palmateer:
1976-77 NHL 50 (8)
1977-78 NHL 63 (4)
1978-79 NHL 58 (3)
1980-81 NHL 49 (9)
1982-83 NHL 53 (7)

wins:

JF:
1920-21 NHL 13 (2)
1924-25 NHL 19 (1)

MP:
1977-78 NHL 34 (3)
1978-79 NHL 26 (3)

goals against average:

JF:
1920-21 NHL 3.83 (2)
1923-24 NHL 2.75 (3)
1924-25 NHL 1.96 (2)

MP:
1977-78 NHL 2.74 (9)
1978-79 NHL 2.95 (6)

shutouts:

JF:
1923-24 NHL 1 (3)
1924-25 NHL 6 (2)
1925-26 NHL 2 (5)
1926-27 NHL 8 (5)
Career NHL 19 (93)

MP:
1976-77 NHL 4 (5)
1977-78 NHL 5 (2)
1978-79 NHL 4 (2)
1979-80 NHL 2 (7)
1980-81 NHL 2 (3)

As discussed in our last series with the Indians, Forbes made it to the playoffs once, because throughout his career he played on much inferior teams to the ones who enjoyed success in the NHL in that era.

Palmateer has a short, but subpar playoff resume, had a good run with the Leafs in 1977-1978 when they went to the semi-finals, only to get destroyed by Montreal in four games, in which they scored 16 goals, making quick work of Palmateer in that series, although he was pretty good in the first two series'. Forbes was often spectacular for his dismal clubs, but just couldn't reach the playoffs because the team in front of him was not able to bail him out in most games. He was one of the prominent goaltenders of his era.

There's some statistics for thought, I'm not really sure how to compare because it's two very different goaltenders, in much different eras. But for anyone who thought Palmateer was running away as the top netminder, these stats are serious consideration to think otherwise, or at least place Forbes on a comparable level. Feel free to add anything else on this subject, BBS.

 

[Velociraptor]

I have said all along that Boudreau has not proven himself capable of doing anything when it matters most. Yeah, he got a star-studded cast to have a couple of great regular seasons, even got them to play against their nature and backcheck and be more defensive. But he tries to fit a round peg into a square hole. Just look at how he has MISUSED Semin (Is Klima this squad's Semin?). Great coaches adapt to their resources and get the most out of their players: not ram one style down their throat. Boudreau may be a one-trick pony whose ride is short and whose legacy is thin. There's nothing in the underachieving coach's career to suggest he has what it takes to lead a team to a championship. Shame on anyone who thought Boudreau a good pick but Bobrov a bad pick. His peak was greater than his career, though both weren't long or great, and some really overvalue his talent as coach. He is a Double-A draft assistant coach at best. There are at least four undrafted coaches with a better combination of peak, career and talent in hockey history.

And of course, the Boudreau hate parade continues, his firing couldn't have waited another week

Also to reiterate in my last two series' a few of Boudreau's top offensive guns are playoff underachievers

Semin's average TOI in the playoffs is as follows:
07-08: 19:45
08-09: 19:58
09-10: 19:21
10-11: 18:36

Mike Green's average TOI:
07-08: 26:59
08-09: 24:58
09-10: 26:01
10-11: 21:28

It's definitely not necessarily about Boudreau getting bad matchups, or misusing his players. They just aren't producing. Carson, Klima, Anderson, Legwand, Cavallini and a few more players have proved they can continue their production in the post-season. Yes, Boudreau has Ovechkin, who is lights out in the playoffs, it just so happens that some of the top players who have regular season success, but just can't come up big when it comes to the real deal. Boudreau is dealing with a team that possesses players with playoff scoring prowess, which is a change from players who tend to disappear when it really counts.

 

[seventieslord]

I have said all along that Boudreau has not proven himself capable of doing anything when it matters most....There's nothing in the underachieving coach's career to suggest he has what it takes to lead a team to a championship.

As opposed to every single other coach who has been drafted so far, and their record of proven sustained playoff success and multiple championships?

(Is Klima this squad's Semin?).

yes.

Shame on anyone who thought Boudreau a good pick but Bobrov a bad pick.

hmmm, "bad" is such a strong word.

There are at least four undrafted coaches with a better combination of peak, career and talent in hockey history.

After 96 coaches have been drafted, Boudreau being 89th of them, the worst thing that his biggest critic can say is that maybe he is only the 100th-best? Considering how widely judgments can vary with coaches, he's not doing too bad.

[
Hart Voting:

Jake Forbes:
1923-24: 7th
1924-25: T-9th

Mike Palmateer:
1978-79: 5th

Palmateer has the higher placing, but Forbes was recognized more than once for being very valuable to his team.

It should be noted that in 1924 the NHL was one of three pro leagues and in 1925 it was one of two.

had a good run with the Leafs in 1977-1978 when they went to the semi-finals, only to get destroyed by Montreal in four games, in which they scored 16 goals

Something tells me that allowing 16 goals to that squad was actually an accomplishment.

 

[seventieslord]

By the way, to answer re: Boris and Dmitri - where did you get the idea Dmitri was better by reputation? I never heard this. I can tell you two things in the little time I have:

1. Boris averaged 22.3 minutes a game in his career to Dmitri's 20.0, and averaged it over 150 more games as well.

2. Boris was rated a top-20 defenseman in the game in two seasons by an independent source - THN. (18th-1998, 15th-1999) Dmitri was not.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

St. John's Ice Caps

General Manager: Velociraptor
Head Coach: Bruce Boudreau
Captain: Al MacNeil
Assistant Captains: Keith McCreary, Shawn McEachern

Armand Mondou - Jimmy Carson - John Anderson
Shawn McEachern - Walt McKechnie - Petr Klima
Curtis Brown - David Legwand - Ric Seiling
Keith McCreary - Bill Derlago - Floyd Smith
Spares: Real Chevrefils LW, Dennis Ververgaert RW

Al MacNeil - Paul Cavallini
Ed Kea - Yuri Shatalov
Dale Rolfe - Jean Potvin
Spares: Todd Gill, Brent Burns

Jake Forbes
Frank McCool

PP1: Klima - Carson - Anderson - Cavallini - Potvin
PP2: McEachern - McKechnie - Mondou - MacNeil - Potvin

PK1: Mondou - Derlago - MacNeil - Kea
PK2: Seiling - McKechnie - Rolfe - Shatalov
​

We'll move Potvin to our second unit as well, he won't be getting a heavy workload at even strength, so he'll be able to spend the majority of his time quarterbacking the power play.

and now you see precisely why I have Dmitri now double-shifted on the PP. Avoiding the double-shifting knock just for the sake of it really only limits your PP's potency, at least in the cases of our two teams.

Shatalov isn't overly offensive, but he was very quick, and able to make good breakout passes to his forwards.

Okay, we know now Cavallini isn't the best power play defenseman, but he's not out of place. Dmitri Mironov is also better than I anticipated.

I saw Shatalov could skate well but didn't know anything about his passing. He's definitely not as good a puckmover as Boris but he may have been better than Snepsts. Cavallini's not out of place for sure and the better ES player but he just didn't produce at the same PP level as the Mironovs.

Also, I see what you're getting at, but I wouldn't call Mondou underwhelming. He's essentially Alex Kaleta, but in an earlier era, and a little more renown for playing grittier. I wouldn't think Kaleta on your first line would be a negative at all. Mondou's combination of playmaking and forechecking is integral to the lines success, as he will be able to get Carson the puck from grinding it out, or he'll be able to get under the skin of the Mallards' forwards or defenseman, causing them to possibly commit penalties out of frustration. His place on the first line is very fitting, and at that point in the draft there was no better player who demonstrated a mix of what Mondou has been known to excel at.

The thing is though Mondou's offensive game really compares to Gerry Couture much more than Alex Kaleta.

This is what I got for Mondou's best % finishes of 2nd scoring leader. I'm new to this but with the overlap of Sheppard's career I had the outliers already defined by 70s last series. Either way I labeled the year after the finishes so you can set me straight if I'm offbase here.

Mondou: 51 ('35), 45 ('36), 36 ('32) (I think my numbers were okay even though I called them first place finishes)
Sheppard: 59, 58, 51, 47
Kaleta: 88, 62, 52, 47, 45, 43
Couture: 52, 45, 44

He's matched up directly with Sheppard as well in first line LW and eras they played in and despite giving the edge in size Sheppard is much better offensively. When you bring up Kaleta though it just isn't even close offensively either. He was certainly grittier and tougher in general but Mondou's offensive game would have him in competition with the Mallards 4th liners. You could say this a luxury you can afford with Carson, especially with Mondou filling the role you want with Carson, but it's still worth noting how limited his offensive game is for a top line role.

Here's what I can begin with for a goaltending comparison, as it may be very difficult to actually compare.



Hart Voting:

Jake Forbes:
1923-24: 7th
1924-25: T-9th

Mike Palmateer:
1978-79: 5th

Palmateer has the higher placing, but Forbes was recognized more than once for being very valuable to his team.

Games played:

Forbes:
1922-23 NHL 24 (1)
1923-24 NHL 24 (1)
1924-25 NHL 30 (1)
1925-26 NHL 36 (1)
1926-27 NHL 44 (1)

Palmateer:
1976-77 NHL 50 (8)
1977-78 NHL 63 (4)
1978-79 NHL 58 (3)
1980-81 NHL 49 (9)
1982-83 NHL 53 (7)

wins:

JF:
1920-21 NHL 13 (2)
1924-25 NHL 19 (1)

MP:
1977-78 NHL 34 (3)
1978-79 NHL 26 (3)

goals against average:

JF:
1920-21 NHL 3.83 (2)
1923-24 NHL 2.75 (3)
1924-25 NHL 1.96 (2)

MP:
1977-78 NHL 2.74 (9)
1978-79 NHL 2.95 (6)

shutouts:

JF:
1923-24 NHL 1 (3)
1924-25 NHL 6 (2)
1925-26 NHL 2 (5)
1926-27 NHL 8 (5)
Career NHL 19 (93)

MP:
1976-77 NHL 4 (5)
1977-78 NHL 5 (2)
1978-79 NHL 4 (2)
1979-80 NHL 2 (7)
1980-81 NHL 2 (3)

As discussed in our last series with the Indians, Forbes made it to the playoffs once, because throughout his career he played on much inferior teams to the ones who enjoyed success in the NHL in that era.

Palmateer has a short, but subpar playoff resume, had a good run with the Leafs in 1977-1978 when they went to the semi-finals, only to get destroyed by Montreal in four games, in which they scored 16 goals, making quick work of Palmateer in that series, although he was pretty good in the first two series'. Forbes was often spectacular for his dismal clubs, but just couldn't reach the playoffs because the team in front of him was not able to bail him out in most games. He was one of the prominent goaltenders of his era.

There's some statistics for thought, I'm not really sure how to compare because it's two very different goaltenders, in much different eras. But for anyone who thought Palmateer was running away as the top netminder, these stats are serious consideration to think otherwise, or at least place Forbes on a comparable level. Feel free to add anything else on this subject, BBS.

I agree that comparing these statistics against one another is really hard to make much of. I've tried to look at these players' stats against the players in their era to sort of gauge how elite/good they really were within the context of their careers. I think this is important because we both have Hart recipient goalies which can really mean different things and it's just a bit confusing as it. I agree with you though, they're both worthy goalies here and it should be pretty close between them.

It should be noted that in 1924 the NHL was one of three pro leagues and in 1925 it was one of two.

Sounds like I have a bunch more to try to look up now as well. Actually '21 would only have PCHA.

 

[seventieslord]

BBS - for apples to apples with the percentages of those other players, compare to the #2 scorer, not #1.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

BBS - for apples to apples with the percentages of those other players, compare to the #2 scorer, not #1.

Thank you for this, I'll go back and fix them up.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

By the way, to answer re: Boris and Dmitri - where did you get the idea Dmitri was better by reputation? I never heard this. I can tell you two things in the little time I have:

1. Boris averaged 22.3 minutes a game in his career to Dmitri's 20.0, and averaged it over 150 more games as well.

2. Boris was rated a top-20 defenseman in the game in two seasons by an independent source - THN. (18th-1998, 15th-1999) Dmitri was not.

Yeah I'm not sure why it took me this long to put that all together, aside from the whole Popiel thing and not wanting him with Dmitri. I guess I just thought Dmitri was the much better offensive player, but that's just not true at all.

He averaged all of one less adjusted PP point than Dmitri and a handful less ES points despite having that substantial GP advantage and higher peak.

 

[VanIslander]

Maybe me and my friends were wrong about Dmitri>Boris. Maybe Boris should have played in an NHL all-star game instead of Dmitri. I dunno about stats and to hell with them! But I know we thought the older Dmitri the better of the brothers. Word.

Mironov made his debut at the Izvestia Cup tournament in 1991. That was followed by the World Championships in Finland, where he made the second All-Star team. It was at that championship that Mironov was spotted by scouts and put on the draft list of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

In 1992 the Russians sent a very young team to the Olympics in France. At 25, Mironov was the most experienced defenseman. But they won the ice hockey tournament, beating the Eric Lindros-led Team Canada in the final. Two-thirds of the players from that Russian team eventually played in the NHL.

He then played seven games for the Leafs at season's end, scored one goal and got a broken nose. His real debut came the next year. He had to get used to the tight game schedule, a completely new style of playing and constant changes of partners. Toronto head coach Pat Burns even tried Mironov out as a forward. It was the best season for the Maple Leafs in the 1990s.

Before the season started, bookmakers were giving them 150-1 odds. But Mironov came to the team with one of the best young coaches in the NHL, Ron Wilson, and upcoming stars Paul Kariya and Teemu Selanne. It could be said that the years with Anaheim were the best in Mironov's NHL career. And the power-play unit led by Mironov, Kariya and Selanne was considered one of the best in the league. Dmitri also took part in the silver medal win by Russia at the Olympic tournament in Nagano.

This is the stage of his career I remember the most. He rocked the 1992 Olympics and the Mighty Ducks. Anything else, *shrug* guess it's a wash with his bro'.

I hate re-visionist history personally.

Like trying to say Modano was more important to the Stars than Nieuwendyk (*shake head*), or Forsberg as less dominant than Sakic. These statements don't pass the smell test of those who watched the era.

Perhaps this is why I enjoy discussion of pre O6 era hockey SO MUCH MORE than any hockey that any of us have seen!

I am no ignorant hockey fan, and while I can see the Lemieux vs. Gretzky argument and Ovechkin vs. Crosby argument, I can't for the life of me see some of the stat-supported claims made around here. But how do you argue against stats with "Uh, me and my friends didn't think so!" Bah. the thing is: I don't care to argue against an obvious falsehood! Zhitnik as AT ALL decent defensively?! I still can't get over that. The guy throws hits and carries the puck but has the hockey sense of an end boards and the decision making of a gambling addict.

Anyways, both Mironov's on the same squad gives the coaching staff many options. Let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Maybe me and my friends wwere wrong about Dmitri>Boris. Maybe Boris should have played in an NHL all-star game game instead of Dmitri. I dunno about stats and to hell with them! But I know we thought the older Dmitri the better of the brothers. Word.


This is the stage of his career I remember the most. He rocked the 1992 Olympics and the Mights Ducks. Anything else, *shrug* guess it's a wash with his bro'.

I hate re-visionist history personally.

Like trying to say Modano was more important to the Stars than Nieuwendyk (*shake head*), or Forsberg as less dominant than Sakic. These statements don't pass the smell test of those who watched the era.

Perhaps this is why I enjoy discussion of pre O6 era hockey SO MUCH MORE than any hockey that any of us have seen!

I'm not sure you have to be a re-visionist to suggest that despite Dmitri's excellence in Anaheim-look at his numbers it was the best pace and time of his career-which led to him making an an ASG that there is still a clear edge in terms of longevity for Boris. Obviously Dmitri came over later but it's still a substantial less amount of games played, which has to count for something if they produced similarly the whole time, right? Hence you shruggingly suggesting it's probably close to a wash?

Perhaps saying peak is objectionable when one made an ASG and the other didn't, but it seems like the only thing Dmitri has over Boris are those two years. I guess we can hold that up as a discernible edge in peak but when we provide the context I'm still going to have Dmitri anchoring my third pair and all accounts seem to suggest Boris was the better defensive player. I know stats be damned but I needs that D in the top 4 and this way I can give Dmitri more time to do his thing on the PP like he did so well during those years in Anaheim.

 

[VanIslander]

Quad City has a clear edge on the blueline. Convince us that the goaltending isn't in St. John's favour by as much as it seems! That's an important factor in this series imo.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I hate re-visionist history personally.

Like trying to say Modano was more important to the Stars than Nieuwendyk (*shake head*), or Forsberg as less dominant than Sakic. These statements don't pass the smell test of those who watched the era.

.

Are you talking about just the 1999 playoffs (and the Smythe) or the franchise as a whole when they played together? Because anyone who watched the era should have noticed Modano was more important on a season by season basis, even if Niewy stepped up in the 1999 playoffs.

Agree that Forsberg and Sakic were equally dominant.

Quad City has a clear edge on the blueline. Convince us that the goaltending isn't in St. John's favour by as much as it seems! That's an important factor in this series imo.

I think it's the reverse actually.

 

[jkrx]

Are you talking about just the 1999 playoffs (and the Smythe) or the franchise as a whole when they played together? Because anyone who watched the era should have noticed Modano was more important on a season by season basis, even if Niewy stepped up in the 1999 playoffs.

Agree that Forsberg and Sakic were equally dominant.



I think it's the reverse actually.

I think they have a pretty equal defensive set up but Quad has an advantage with Palmateer.

PS. Did you get my PM, TDMM? I think my inbox was full so I dont know if it got sent.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think they have a pretty equal defensive set up but Quad has an advantage with Palmateer.

PS. Did you get my PM, TDMM? I think my inbox was full so I dont know if it got sent.

I think MacNeil and Cavallini are the best two overall defensemen in this series, which is a big difference.

Potvin is the best PP guy too, IMO.

I might have been underrating Snepst on Quad City's second pairing though - 2 All Star games for a defensive defenseman is quite impressive at this point.

Yeah, I got your PM. I get a ton of PMs about the defensemen project on the HOH board now (which is my Hfboards priority at the moment), so I don't have time to respond to most PMs.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

I think MacNeil and Cavallini are the best two overall defensemen in this series, which is a big difference.

Potvin is the best PP guy too, IMO.

I might have been underrating Snepst on Quad City's second pairing though - 2 All Star games for a defensive defenseman is quite impressive at this point.

I don't disagree with either of those assessments. Just as before Dewsbury doesn't hold up to his opponent's #1 and it's the lack of a voting record that causes trouble. He was certainly more offensive than MacNeil and plenty physical but that doesn't hold up here. Cavallini too has that nice voting record and is probably better than Dewsbury.

Potvin's definitely the best PP guy here but I think the Mironovs and Dewsbury take the 2-4 spots with Cavallini and MacNeil trailing so I prefer my defenders PP-wise in this series.

I think our second and third pairs match up pretty well. Snepsts is probably better than Shatalov, the two enforcer types, as his international career was limited by fighting and displeasing the Soviet brass and his domestic career doesn't seem very notable either. Kea might stand up ahead of Snepsts as he probably didn't have the same limitations, but Boris would have to be weighed here as well. The rotating door of Mironovs gave me a boost over most 3rd pairs but Potvin and Dmitri seem pretty even as well so I think overall these groups are close despite the edge for St. John's top pair.

 

[Velociraptor]

Who accumulated the divisional voting? Can we find out who had the better regular season finish? Just to see who gets home ice advantage to start the series off, for argument's sake

and now you see precisely why I have Dmitri now double-shifted on the PP. Avoiding the double-shifting knock just for the sake of it really only limits your PP's potency, at least in the cases of our two teams.



I saw Shatalov could skate well but didn't know anything about his passing. He's definitely not as good a puckmover as Boris but he may have been better than Snepsts. Cavallini's not out of place for sure and the better ES player but he just didn't produce at the same PP level as the Mironovs.



The thing is though Mondou's offensive game really compares to Gerry Couture much more than Alex Kaleta.

This is what I got for Mondou's best % finishes of 2nd scoring leader. I'm new to this but with the overlap of Sheppard's career I had the outliers already defined by 70s last series. Either way I labeled the year after the finishes so you can set me straight if I'm offbase here.

Mondou: 51 ('35), 45 ('36), 36 ('32) (I think my numbers were okay even though I called them first place finishes)
Sheppard: 59, 58, 51, 47
Kaleta: 88, 62, 52, 47, 45, 43
Couture: 52, 45, 44

He's matched up directly with Sheppard as well in first line LW and eras they played in and despite giving the edge in size Sheppard is much better offensively. When you bring up Kaleta though it just isn't even close offensively either. He was certainly grittier and tougher in general but Mondou's offensive game would have him in competition with the Mallards 4th liners. You could say this a luxury you can afford with Carson, especially with Mondou filling the role you want with Carson, but it's still worth noting how limited his offensive game is for a top line role.



I agree that comparing these statistics against one another is really hard to make much of. I've tried to look at these players' stats against the players in their era to sort of gauge how elite/good they really were within the context of their careers. I think this is important because we both have Hart recipient goalies which can really mean different things and it's just a bit confusing as it. I agree with you though, they're both worthy goalies here and it should be pretty close between them.



Sounds like I have a bunch more to try to look up now as well. Actually '21 would only have PCHA.

Especially where we have come to a conclusion Shatalov is unspectacular offensively.

I also discussed giving Potvin additional PP time last series, but never formally made the announcement to do so. Even though the percentage suggests him and D. Mironov are close when it comes to power play presence, Potvin was much more effective at the power play in his career, having seasons at 91, 88, 87, 84 and 83. But in seasons where he was more noted for his defensive play, he was seldomly used on the power play, but was really a lethal weapon when it came to the man advantage. Whereas Dmitri had good years, but not to the consistency Potvin once held, his best five seasons were 92, 80, 79, 78 and 65.

Mondou is not relied on to be the best offensive player on the line, his playmaking finesse and positively remarked two-way ability are his key assets. He is not the strongest offensive player, but he'll be able to create plays while adding strong, gritty play. The reason I selected Mondou over Kaleta was definitely the higher degree of defensive prowess he possessed, which makes him very valuable to the first line and hardly makes him an outcast. His offense isn't spectacular, but he's on the line for the assets that he has been acclaimed to perform well at.

Quad City has a clear edge on the blueline. Convince us that the goaltending isn't in St. John's favour by as much as it seems! That's an important factor in this series imo.

I think it's the other way around as well, I think what we have discovered that both topics are closer as they seem. So far is that Quad City's defense is definitely near par with the Ice Caps' defensive core, I still believe I have a stronger and more consistent core, that can definitely contend with the Mallards' offensive attack. We've also found that Jake Forbes is not far off from Mike Palmateer at ll, I think the two goalies are extremely comparable, and I would like to see any more possible evidence to conclude one is proven better than the other (may be impossible).

I don't disagree with either of those assessments. Just as before Dewsbury doesn't hold up to his opponent's #1 and it's the lack of a voting record that causes trouble. He was certainly more offensive than MacNeil and plenty physical but that doesn't hold up here. Cavallini too has that nice voting record and is probably better than Dewsbury.

Potvin's definitely the best PP guy here but I think the Mironovs and Dewsbury take the 2-4 spots with Cavallini and MacNeil trailing so I prefer my defenders PP-wise in this series.

I think our second and third pairs match up pretty well. Snepsts is probably better than Shatalov, the two enforcer types, as his international career was limited by fighting and displeasing the Soviet brass and his domestic career doesn't seem very notable either. Kea might stand up ahead of Snepsts as he probably didn't have the same limitations, but Boris would have to be weighed here as well. The rotating door of Mironovs gave me a boost over most 3rd pairs but Potvin and Dmitri seem pretty even as well so I think overall these groups are close despite the edge for St. John's top pair.

I will concur with TDMM's statement, I also believe MacNeil and Cavallini are the best defensemen in the series, and the fact they are paired together is very lethal. Dewsbury is a good two-way defenseman, but falls short to his comparative Cavallini in both ends of the ice.

I think even though Potvin's overall PP percentage isn't flattering, he's far and away the most effective power play defenseman in the series, as he mustered 43 points one season on the man advantage, where Mironov's best count was 24 points, still a good PP defenseman at this level, but he isn't as strong as Jean Potvin is.