Teemu Selanne HHOF ?

[Dark Shadows]

I can accept that argument. I never watched the real Bobby play except in highlight reels, unlike Bossy who played in my formative years...so I admit to personal bias there. I always thought of Bobby as more of a complete offensive player, but his scoring numbers really do mimic Bossy's more than I thought, and as you said...very different eras for their peaks. I'll stick with Bossy for sentimental reasons, but I won't argue with you at all for saying Hull.

Fair enough. I am among the bigger Bossy supporters in this section, and think he is certainly top 5, despite only 2 goal scoring titles.

 

[MXD]

You're missing one very important name of that list...not sure how: Mike Bossy. 9 straight 50+ goal seasons to start his career (he set the rookie mark Teemu broke, and even Gretz didn't do 9-in-a-row, only 9 total.). He was injured in his 10th season, still netted 38g and decided that was as good a time as any to retire. 573 goals in 752 games, 85 more in 129 playoff games. Epic career.

He is still, (to my mind) the best PURE goal scorer to lace up skates in the NHL... though Ovechkin is making a good case for surplaning him in my mind, game after game. He has a LOONG way to go to get there though.

I'm indeed not sure how I could have forgotten Bossy

 

[2faded]

I can accept that argument. I never watched the real Bobby play except in highlight reels, unlike Bossy who played in my formative years...so I admit to personal bias there. I always thought of Bobby as more of a complete offensive player, but his scoring numbers really do mimic Bossy's more than I thought, and as you said...very different eras for their peaks. I'll stick with Bossy for sentimental reasons, but I won't argue with you at all for saying Hull.

huh? what the...? am i at the right site? People making rational posts and getting along...this is too wierd im going back to trade rumors

Sry, never been in this part of the forums. It caught me off guard.


Anyways, i think he should be in the HHOF. Also, he is 39 and is still really fast. He cant stickhandle to save his life anymore but he still finds a way to score, and scores quite often.

 

[Lemurs]

huh? what the...? am i at the right site? People making rational posts and getting along...this is too wierd im going back to trade rumors

Sry, never been in this part of the forums. It caught me off guard.


Anyways, i think he should be in the HHOF. Also, he is 39 and is still really fast. He cant stickhandle to save his life anymore but he still finds a way to score, and scores quite often.

Sorry, I am both oldish (mid-30s) and newish (to HFboards) enoguh to not have quite figured out how argue with people for the hell of it while insulting their favorite players and teams. I'm sure I'll get a hang of it soon enough.

Also, back to the orignal post, which I never addressed: No question Teemu is a 1st-ballot HHOFer barring a very stacked "class". Given the era he played in, his numbers are almost eye-popping. Everything slowed down dramatically after his first couple of seasons, except for him...I was never a fan when he was younger, but the last 10 years have put him on top of my "veteran guys I admire and want on my team" list.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't particularly like Selanne after he refused a trade from the bottomfeeder San Jose Sharks to the contender (and soon to be champion) NJ Devils at the 2003 trade deadline because he didn't want to leave sunny California.

But his numbers are too big to ignore, especially considering the era he played in.

 

[supaman]

Sure. A notch below Belfour as far as "sureshot" is concerned.
Not necessarily first ballot.

I'd say far more than a notch ABOVE Belfour.

I don't particularly like Selanne after he refused a trade from the bottomfeeder San Jose Sharks to the contender (and soon to be champion) NJ Devils at the 2003 trade deadline because he didn't want to leave sunny California.

But his numbers are too big to ignore, especially considering the era he played in.

NJ plays(ed) the trap. No way he would want any part of that.

But yeah, he is a lock. First ballot.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'd say far more than a notch ABOVE Belfour.

Disagree. It's hard to compare goalies to forwards, but I'll try. I think Belfour is the 4th best goalie since the 70s. Selanne isn't nearly that close to the best forwards.

NJ plays(ed) the trap. No way he would want any part of that.

But yeah, he is a lock. First ballot.

Choosing personal stats over winning? Another knock against Selanne. But I do agree that he's likely first ballot at this point.

 

[Jumptheshark]

To the poster who brought up his refusal of a trade

There was something going on in his personal life that took precedant at the time and it did not come out till much later

 

[canucks4ever]

Ed Belfour is definetly better than Teemu Selanne. He's also better than Bure, Lindros, Fedorov, and Sundin.

 

[Kuhta]

Disagree. It's hard to compare goalies to forwards, but I'll try. I think Belfour is the 4th best goalie since the 70s. Selanne isn't nearly that close to the best forwards.

Can you count how many forwards has played in the league since the 70´s... and then same thing to the goalies... much appreciated !

 

[Chased By Trolls]

Anyways, i think he should be in the HHOF. Also, he is 39 and is still really fast. He cant stickhandle to save his life anymore but he still finds a way to score, and scores quite often.

Agreed, most probably a first ballot guy too. His speed really is remarkable at his age. You're right about the scoring too. He's on pace for 47 goals right now, and while he most likely won't be able to keep that pace up for the whole season, it's interesting to look at this in a historical context.

Top goal scoring seasons for players 39 and over:
1. Howe 40yo 44g
2. Howe 39yo 39g
3. Bucyk 40yo 36g
4. Howe 41yo 31g
5. Bucyk 39yo 29g
6. Ratelle 39yo 28g

With 14 goals already, it looks like a safe bet that he'll make that list and could even be placed behind only Howe, which would be very impressive.

 

[canucks4ever]

Can you count how many forwards has played in the league since the 70´s... and then same thing to the goalies... much appreciated !

There are many goalies that have been in the league, on top of that Goalie is harder to play. All Teemu has to do is score his goal, then thats it hes done for the game. Belfour has to stop 30+ shots and hes responsible for winning and lsoing games. Belfour> Selanne

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Can you count how many forwards has played in the league since the 70´s... and then same thing to the goalies... much appreciated !

I just don't think being a 3rd or 4th line forward compares to being a starting goaltending, but maybe that's just me. Again, hard to compare, but I'd compare starting goaltenders to first line forwards. Then you have a 3-1 ratio.

 

[FinnGoalie]

There are many goalies that have been in the league, on top of that Goalie is harder to play. All Teemu has to do is score his goal, then thats it hes done for the game. Belfour has to stop 30+ shots and hes responsible for winning and lsoing games. Belfour> Selanne

I've been a goalie myself and an Eddie the Eagle fan the whole time...
But man, this has to be one of the most ignorant arguments I've seen here in a while.

I don't go telling everyone now how hard it is to play goal, well, surely it is. Have you played in goal and base this argumenting on that? If you have, what is your reasoning here? If you haven't, what is your reasoning here?

We're talking about a lock for HOF of hockey here. You're saying that to be the BEST goal scorer in the BEST league in the world you JUST go about, score a goal or two and that's about it? From which page of "How to play ice hockey?" book did you read that?


So if Andrew Raycroft stopped 30+ shots in a game on a regular basis, is he ahead of this Wayne G. guy who just went there and scored, well, loads, and did nothing much more?

Still, Eddie was a beast and one of my idols, but how many great goal scorers (on Selanne's level and above) there's been after 70's (hint, truth is not just the numbers)?

 

[cupcrazyman]

Selannes fate has been sealed for almost a decade. Hall - yes!

edit: one of my favorite players growing up... I still remember getting that 91 Upper Deck rookie card at Christmas time.

i remember buying a box of UD his rookie year & the number of his rookies in that 1 box was awesome.

 

[canucks4ever]

I've been a goalie myself and an Eddie the Eagle fan the whole time...
But man, this has to be one of the most ignorant arguments I've seen here in a while.

I don't go telling everyone now how hard it is to play goal, well, surely it is. Have you played in goal and base this argumenting on that? If you have, what is your reasoning here? If you haven't, what is your reasoning here?

We're talking about a lock for HOF of hockey here. You're saying that to be the BEST goal scorer in the BEST league in the world you JUST go about, score a goal or two and that's about it? From which page of "How to play ice hockey?" book did you read that?


So if Andrew Raycroft stopped 30+ shots in a game on a regular basis, is he ahead of this Wayne G. guy who just went there and scored, well, loads, and did nothing much more?

Still, Eddie was a beast and one of my idols, but how many great goal scorers (on Selanne's level and above) there's been after 70's (hint, truth is not just the numbers)?

O wow a biased finnish fan is trying to make a case saying Selanne is better than Belfour. The hockey news made a list of who they thought were the best players since 67 and they chose Beflour and left selanne off the list.

Selanne has his critics, lack of intangibles and poor playoff success. The only knock somone can make on belfour is that he was a jerk and not as good as roy/broduer. He certainly has the more high profile career than Teemu.

Ed Belfour is better than goalies like cujo, beezer, liut, vachon, cheevers, giacomin, fuhr, and billy smith. He's about as good as Tony Esposito and Bernie Parent.

Teemu Selanne isnt necessarily even better than forwards like savard, hawerchuk, ratelle, francis, lemaire, stastny, brett hull, adam oates, pavel bure. I dont think Teemu is a top 10 forward since expansion. top 20 at most.

 

[Big Phil]

Ed Belfour is definetly better than Teemu Selanne. He's also better than Bure, Lindros, Fedorov, and Sundin.

It's fairly close really. Both won a Cup, Selanne led the league in goals three times, Belfour was a Vezina winner twice. When they both won the Cup neither was in their prime but still a good core of their teams.

Both should get in to be honest on their first shot permitting the log jam isn't overwhelming and a bunch of other higher profile players aren't eligible for the HHOF.

A little off topic, but since we all know Belfour was a pr*ck to the media and got drunk and headlocked that hotel security guard do you consider his career to be too great to not get in over that? Personally I think he is above the borderline scenario to where the Hall can't ignore him. He's past Barrasso/Fleury territory IMO of where the Hall can't use his off ice antics against him. But what do others think can that keep him out?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It's fairly close really. Both won a Cup, Selanne led the league in goals three times, Belfour was a Vezina winner twice. When they both won the Cup neither was in their prime but still a good core of their teams.

Both should get in to be honest on their first shot permitting the log jam isn't overwhelming and a bunch of other higher profile players aren't eligible for the HHOF.

A little off topic, but since we all know Belfour was a pr*ck to the media and got drunk and headlocked that hotel security guard do you consider his career to be too great to not get in over that? Personally I think he is above the borderline scenario to where the Hall can't ignore him. He's past Barrasso/Fleury territory IMO of where the Hall can't use his off ice antics against him. But what do others think can that keep him out?

Belfour is one of the last of the recent retirees to get the full respect he deserves, I believe. I'll post my ATD profile of him here. Apologies to those in the ATD who I'm sure are sick of me repeating myself. But I really do want to see Belfour get the respect he deserves. To me, he's every bit as good as Johnny Bower or Frank Brimsek, guys who were stuck behind all-time greats, but were still (lesser) all-time greats themselves.

Ed Belfour

-7 times Top 5 in Vezina voting (1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 4)
--2 Vezina Trophies against a prime Patrick Roy (1991, 1993)
--2nd in Vezina Voting to a prime Hasek (1995)
--3rd in Vezina Voting in 2003
--4th in Vezina voting in 92, 98, 00

-2 First Team All Star nods (91, 93)
-1 Second Team All Star nod (95)'
-3 "Third Team" All Star nods (92, 98, 03)

-4 Jennings Trophies (91, 93, 95, 99)
-Regular season save % leader in 91 and 00

-Stanley Cup Champion in 1999
-Stanley Cup Runner up in 1992, 2000

-161 career playoff games (3rd all-time)
-88 career playoff wins (tied with Billy Smith for 4th all-time)
-career playoff save % of .920 - tied with Martin Brodeur and behind only Dominik Hasek among goalies with more than 60 career playoff games.

-All this while playing in the most competitive era ever for goaltending.
--Without Roy or Hasek (argubly the two best goalies ever), Belfour would have 3 1st team and 2 2nd team All Star nods.
--Without Roy, Hasek, or Brodeur (as good a trio as Sawchuk, Plante, and Hall), Belfour would have 4 1st team and 2 2nd team All Star nods.
--Belfour had to compete with one-season wonders who wouldn't even be in the league if there were still only 6 teams. (See a couple of the Vezina winners during Belfour's career).

___

In my opinion, a peak Belfour was just as good as peak Brodeur and a tiny hair behind peak Roy at stopping pucks. He wasn't the quite the puckhandler Brodeur is/was, but he was certainly above average.

Edit: Sorry if this is off topic for the Selanne thing. But I guess I feel okay going off topic when every answer to the original question is basically, "yes, first ballot."

 

[FinnGoalie]

O wow a biased finnish fan is trying to make a case saying Selanne is better than Belfour. The hockey news made a list of who they thought were the best players since 67 and they chose Beflour and left selanne off the list.

Selanne has his critics, lack of intangibles and poor playoff success. The only knock somone can make on belfour is that he was a jerk and not as good as roy/broduer. He certainly has the more high profile career than Teemu.

Ed Belfour is better than goalies like cujo, beezer, liut, vachon, cheevers, giacomin, fuhr, and billy smith. He's about as good as Tony Esposito and Bernie Parent.

Teemu Selanne isnt necessarily even better than forwards like savard, hawerchuk, ratelle, francis, lemaire, stastny, brett hull, adam oates, pavel bure. I dont think Teemu is a top 10 forward since expansion. top 20 at most.

Thanks. Well, to start, exactly where I was saying I was even comparing them? Please tell me.

The last question I asked, didn't have anything to do with Eddie, it was just to bring up names Selanne could be associated with. So, you bring up savard, hawerchuk, ratelle, francis, lemaire, stastny, brett hull, adam oates, pavel bure, but also Cujo, Beezer, Liut, Vachon, Cheevers, Giacomin, Fuhr, and Billy Smith, Tony Esposito and Bernie Parent.

If you read my post, you see that I was questioning your argumenting, not the case for Eddie. You know what, as a highly biased Finn, I pretty much agree with your Eddie assessment. Who would have thought...I guess you, even after the first post, couldn't see this. Does saying Selanne is a lock make me biased? Might want to take a look in the mirror. I know his critics, have been a critic of his overall play for better part of his career myself. Yet he's a rare breed in goal scoring (insert the biased comment here).

You didn't answer my original questions about what is your reasoning behind that "easier/harder" argument and "all you have to do is just score", but chose to play "biased" card in very educated way, instead. Want to mock my English language/spelling too?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Thanks. Well, to start, exactly where I was saying I was even comparing them? Please tell me.

The last question I asked, didn't have anything to do with Eddie, it was just to bring up names Selanne could be associated with. So, you bring up savard, hawerchuk, ratelle, francis, lemaire, stastny, brett hull, adam oates, pavel bure, but also Cujo, Beezer, Liut, Vachon, Cheevers, Giacomin, Fuhr, and Billy Smith, Tony Esposito and Bernie Parent.

If you read my post, you see that I was questioning your argumenting, not the case for Eddie. You know what, as a highly biased Finn, I pretty much agree with your Eddie assessment. Who would have thought...I guess you, even after the first post, couldn't see this. Does saying Selanne is a lock make me biased? Might want to take a look in the mirror. I know his critics, have been a critic of his overall play for better part of his career myself. Yet his a rare breed in goal scoring.

You didn't answer my original questions about what is your reasoning behind that "easier/harder" argument and "all you have to do is just score", but chose to play "biased" card in very educated way, instead. Want to mock my English language/spelling too?

Your English is better than quite a few of the native English speakers around these boards

To be fair to ushvinder, there are a couple of biased Selanne fans (mostly on the main board and I think all Finnish) who will jump into any Selanne thread by saying he's much better than anyone he's being compared with.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Why is Selanne being compared to Belfour?

Why not compare him to Baron Davis?

Yes, Selanne is a hall of famer. Sometimes people overthink the HHoF

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yes, Selanne is a hall of famer. Sometimes people overthink the HHoF

Good point! People (myself included) are like "blah blah blah top 10s."

This is how the committee will probably look at it:

1. 600 goals in a low scoring era? Impressive!
2. Stanley Cup to check off on the resume? He's in!

 

[canucks4ever]

Thanks. Well, to start, exactly where I was saying I was even comparing them? Please tell me.

The last question I asked, didn't have anything to do with Eddie, it was just to bring up names Selanne could be associated with. So, you bring up savard, hawerchuk, ratelle, francis, lemaire, stastny, brett hull, adam oates, pavel bure, but also Cujo, Beezer, Liut, Vachon, Cheevers, Giacomin, Fuhr, and Billy Smith, Tony Esposito and Bernie Parent.

If you read my post, you see that I was questioning your argumenting, not the case for Eddie. You know what, as a highly biased Finn, I pretty much agree with your Eddie assessment. Who would have thought...I guess you, even after the first post, couldn't see this. Does saying Selanne is a lock make me biased? Might want to take a look in the mirror. I know his critics, have been a critic of his overall play for better part of his career myself. Yet he's a rare breed in goal scoring (insert the biased comment here).

You didn't answer my original questions about what is your reasoning behind that "easier/harder" argument and "all you have to do is just score", but chose to play "biased" card in very educated way, instead. Want to mock my English language/spelling too?

Well, Goalie is a harder position to play and I would say an elite goalie is more valuable than an elite forward. I do believe Hasek gets ranked higher than Jagr and Mikita. If Hasek had a longer nhl career he would rank higher than Bobby Hull. A forward can score as many points as he wants, if your goalie is cold, you lose the game.

 

[FinnGoalie]

Your English is better than quite a few of the native English speakers around these boards

To be fair to ushvinder, there are a couple of biased Selanne fans (mostly on the main board and I think all Finnish) who will jump into any Selanne thread by saying he's much better than anyone he's being compared with.

Cheers buddy. You know, it just cannot be ignored at some point, once you start getting these "bias" comments just based on being from somewhere, without any proper arguments... I might want to get that flag off from the avatar to make it easier here

 

[FinnGoalie]

Well, Goalie is a harder position to play and I would say an elite goalie is more valuable than an elite forward. I do believe Hasek gets ranked higher than Jagr and Mikita. If Hasek had a longer nhl career he would rank higher than Bobby Hull. A forward can score as many points as he wants, if your goalie is cold, you lose the game.

Well, to play in goal, that's difficult I know well enough. But if you try to compare the best of the best in the world at something, there shouldn't be such arguments. Being forward/goalie is so different from each other. Those positions are just not comparable. You cannot say that if Hasek had laced them up as kid to be a forward, he would become the NHL's top scorer.

That kind of scoring talent/skills as, say, Selanne has - it's one in a million(don't take this amount literally). Same thing goes with Dominator (who is the best goalie ever, in my books) who had many individual skills/talents that nobody else had in the same package, thus became something special in that position.

There's lots of examples in hockey history when the player has all the "tools" but quite just can't make it. All of the "elite" players have put in a massive amount of work to get there. It's very possible that for Brodeur, as an example, it was a lot "easier" to become elite in goal and would have been impossible to be HOFer as a forward.
You need the tools, which includes physical potential, mental toughness and balance, motivation, game smarts, etc. When you have what it takes in your tool box, then you try to put those into use in the best possible way. That makes the difference.