U18: Team Switzerland

Speyer

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Our glorious federation already posted the preliminary roster for the upcoming U18 WJC.

Underagers Daniil Ustinkov (who already has some NLA experience), Leon Muggli, Jamiro Reber and Christian Kirsch find themselves on the list. Since the 06 birth year is much stronger than the 05 class Gian Meier and Jordan Forget should probably have been selected as well. There isn't much of an excuse for favoring some of the weaker 05 forwards like Gioele Peddrazini over Forget. The former may have some slick hands and good vision but he is a Jeremy Jabola Prada type player that will struggle at the WJC level because of his size.

Besides that it was surprising that Leo Braillard only appears on the roster as a possible reinforcement that could be selected later "on demand". I don't know if some injury or him playing in Canada is factoring into this but it would be borderline criminal to leave him of the team, as he was our most dangerous forward in last years Ivan Hlinka memorial tournament. But with Marcel "Schöggi" Jenni as our coach all bets are of regarding roster selection anyways.

Kimo Grubers absence is a bit more understandable since he had a downright terrible year in the OHL with only 3 goals in over 40 games for Oshawa. I still think he could be a valuable asset to the team, especially on the power play. But its no secret that Jenni does not hold him in very high regard, as he already left him of the team in the aforementioned Hlinka memorial tournament. Besides that there are some other semi questionable selections that are not worth mentioning though, as they wouldn't have changed the teams overall quality in a meaningful way.

As far as the goalies are concerned, I am already looking forward to Hinterlands opinion on the matter:popcorn:
 
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Our glorious federation already posted the preliminary roster for the upcoming U18 WJC.

Underagers Daniil Usitnkov (who already has some NLA experience), Leon Muggli, Jamiro Reber and Christian Kirsch find themselves on the list. Since the 06 birth year is much stronger than the 05 class Gian Meier and Jordan Forget should probably have been selected as well. There isn't much of an excuse for favoring some of the weaker 05 forwards like Gioele Peddrazini over Forget. The former may have some slick hands and good vision but he is a Jeremy Jabola Prada type player that will struggle at the WJC level because of his size.

Besides that it was surprising that Leo Braillard only appears on the roster as a possible reinforcement that could be selected later "on demand". I don't know if some injury or him playing in Canada is factoring into this but it would be borderline criminal to leave him of the team, as he was our most dangerous forward in last years Ivan Hlinka memorial tournament. But with Marcel "Schöggi" Jenni as our coach all bets are of regarding roster selection anyways.

Kimo Grubers absence is a bit more understandable since he had a downright terrible year in the OHL with only 3 goals in over 40 games for Oshawa. I still think he could be a valuable asset to the team, especially on the power play. But its no secret that Jenni does not hold him in very high regard, as he already left him of the team in the aforementioned Hlinka memorial tournament. Besides that there are some other semi questionable selections that are not worth mentioning though, as they wouldn't have changed the teams overall quality in a meaningful way.

As far as the goalies are concerned, I am already looking forward to Hinterlands opinion on the matter:popcorn:
Well, I agree 100% with everything you said. There should be more underagers on this roster as the 06 group is much stronger than the 05 guys. That also goes for the goalies so I wonder why they even bothered putting two 05 goalies on the roster. I mean Huet isn't all that bad but there's easily five (Kirsch, Neuenschwander, Solèr, McNutt, Hrdina) 06 goalies with higher upside. I hope that Neuenschwander makes the roster or that Kirsch is the starter at the very least.

This is a strange roster. On the one hand there should be more underagers because that group is just simply stronger but the best 05 players aren't on the roster as well.

Braillard listed as replacement. Lekic, Gruber and Hull left out completely. These are, together with Schneller and Graf, the best 05 players. Mindboggling.
 
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Speyer

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Well, I agree 100% with everything you said. There should be more underagers on this roster as the 06 group is much stronger than the 05 guys. That also goes for the goalies so I wonder why they even bothered putting two 05 goalies on the roster. I mean Huet isn't all that bad but there's easily five (Kirsch, Neuenschwander, Solèr, McNutt, Hrdina) 06 goalies with higher upside. I hope that Neuenschwander makes the roster or that Kirsch is the starter at the very least.

This is a strange roster. On the one hand there should be more underagers because that group is just simply stronger but the best 05 players aren't on the roster as well.

Braillard listed as replacement. Lekic, Gruber and Hull left out completely. These are, together with Schneller and Graf, the best 05 players. Mindboggling.

I didn't even register that Lekic is not on the roster. Very weird since he is better than a lot of the dmen that made the list. But he was not at the Ivan Hlinka either, so Jenni probably just doesn't like him on a personal level. Hull on the other hand is one of the debatable cases for me. I am not nearly as high on him as others, but there is no way he should not at the very least be on the replacement list. There have been rumors of favoritism regarding the roster selection process in the junior national teams for years, but Jenni is really taking the cake so far. Any semi self-respecting hockey association would look into this ASAP. But our federation seems to be either eating up Jennis justifications (team chemistry, compete level etc.), or they just don't care. Some of the suits are probably involved in the process themselves in one way or another.

I also agree to your take regarding the goalies. Normally the extra year of development and experience would be a good argument against the underagers, but the gap in talent and physical attributes is just to steep to be ignored in this case. I fully expect Huet to be the starter though.
 
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I didn't even register that Lekic is not on the roster. Very weird since he is better than a lot of the dmen that made the list. But he was not at the Ivan Hlinka either, so Jenni probably just doesn't like him on a personal level. Hull on the other hand is one of the debatable cases for me. I am not nearly as high on him as others, but there is no way he should not at the very least be on the replacement list. There have been rumors of favoritism regarding the roster selection process in the junior national teams for years, but Jenni is really taking the cake so far. Any semi self-respecting hockey association would look into this ASAP. But our federation seems to be either eating up Jennis justifications (team chemistry, compete level etc.), or they just don't care. Some of the suits are probably involved in the process themselves in one way or another.

I also agree to your take regarding the goalies. Normally the extra year of development and experience would be a good argument against the underagers, but the gap in talent and physical attributes is just to steep to be ignored in this case. I fully expect Huet to be the starter though.
I mean if they played against each other the 06 team would probably just flat out beat the 05 team but if you still bother putting 05 players on the roster, you can't possibly leave out Gruber, Hull, Lekic and Braillard. That's just bad comedy by our "glorious federation" (I admit I laughed:laugh:

Nothing against Huet, I just think the 06 goalies are better and have higher upside. I don't know why Deussen and Simeoni are on the roster. Doesn't make sense at all.
 
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Speyer

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Pretty hilarious seasons for Gruber and Hull

Yeah, especially Grubers development, or lack thereof, has been incredibly disappointing. His stats were not that far of those of Timo Meier in the U17 league. And while he probably never could have turned out to be near Timos current level, even in the best case scenario, its still sad to see that he is now lightyears away from being drafted at all.
 

Kuracmugger

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I have watched most of the gwo games againsg germany and was impressed how good the team played however i think this won’t be germany‘s wc team since we had a similar situation last year. Where our guys beat germany like 8:1 but most of Germany’s names didn’t play in the tournament. Who did you guys like when watching the games. Simon Meier seems like the strongest player if braillard isn’t selected. Also ustinkov and muggli stood out to me.
 

Kuracmugger

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There is a 30 man roster on EP which doesn’t include Leo Braillard if this is the case for the WJC and Braillard doesn’t play i will call the Swiss coaches morons like Hinterland…
 

Speyer

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There is a 30 man roster on EP which doesn’t include Leo Braillard if this is the case for the WJC and Braillard doesn’t play i will call the Swiss coaches morons like Hinterland…

I just discovered that Jenni recently gave an Interview for some scouts hockey podcast. Here are some takeaways that I found Interesting. Its no secret that I am not a big fan of Jenni and most of the other coaches in our junior program but I 'll try to be as neutral as possible.

1. Lindemann and Braillard are apparently joining the training camp no, mention of Gruber though.

2. Jenni says the two most important traits for any prospect for him are compete level and a "team first attitude". He also mentioned that he doesn't like "egotistical players" ("Me players" in his words). So it seems like the coaching staff had issues with those kind of players in the past.

3. He says Huet is in the clear pole position for the starter job at the U18's. Then Kirsch slots in at number 2 and Deussen at number 3. Says that anything can happen though until the tournament starts.

4. Regarding general problems in our junior system he says that agents often are to involved in a prospects career and are filling their heads with promises that are hard to keep sometimes.

5. Says its super important not to leave any player behind, since we have so few of them. He also says he hopes to have two national teams in each age group in the future one consisting of early, one of late birthdays. No mention of Gruber in that context either:D.

6. He seemed to imply that Sweden is in his opinion a better destination for our junior players than the CHL, especially regarding individual development, training drills, education and of ice support.

7. He sees the fault regarding our recent prospect drought mostly at the club level. Says he has to talk to junior coaches at the club level that "his" players get enough ice time. Says that communication with those coaches is difficult.

8. Then he sees a double standard at the pro level between (young) domestic players and imports. He alludes that imports have a guaranteed spot on the roster and are forgiven lacking work ethic. In contrast a young Swiss players often get demoted again after making small mistakes on the ice.

9. When asked about psychological support and mental training he said that he does those things himself. Says in that context that he doesn't like any "interference" from outside.

So take away from those bullet points what you will.
 
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I just discovered that Jenni recently gave an Interview for some scouts hockey podcast. Here are some takeaways that I found Interesting. Its no secret that I am not a big fan of Jenni and most of the other coaches in our junior program but I 'll try to be as neutral as possible.

1. Lindemann and Braillard are apparently joining the training camp no, mention of Gruber though.

2. Jenni says the two most important traits for any prospect for him are compete level and a "team first attitude". He also mentioned that he doesn't like "egotistical players" ("Me players" in his words). So it seems like the coaching staff had issues with those kind of players in the past.

3. He says Huet is in the clear pole position for the starter job at the U18's. Then Kirsch slots in at number 2 and Deussen at number 3. Says that anything can happen though until the tournament starts.

4. Regarding general problems in our junior system he says that agents often are to involved in a prospects career and are filling their heads with promises that are hard to keep sometimes.

5. Says its super important not to leave any player behind, since we have so few of them. He also says he hopes to have two national teams in each age group in the future one consisting of early, one of late birthdays. No mention of Gruber in that context either:D.

6. He seemed to imply that Sweden is in his opinion a better destination for our junior players than the CHL, especially regarding individual development, training drills, education and of ice support.

7. He sees the fault regarding our recent prospect drought mostly at the club level. Says he has to talk to junior coaches at the club level that "his" players get enough ice time. Says that communication with those coaches is difficult.

8. Then he sees a double standard at the pro level between (young) domestic players and imports. He alludes that imports have a guaranteed spot on the roster and are forgiven lacking work ethic. In contrast a young Swiss players often get demoted again after making small mistakes on the ice.

9. When asked about psychological support and mental training he said that he does those things himself. Says in that context that he doesn't like any "interference" from outside.

So take away from those bullet points what you will.
Oh, so he hates players who are like him? In the sense of back when I played that was all completely fine but now that I'm the coach I want none of it from my players? Cool. Great role model.
 

Speyer

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Oh, so he hates players who are like him? In the sense of back when I played that was all completely fine but now that I'm the coach I want none of it from my players? Cool. Great role model.
I think its more that he is delusional and has his own way of remembering the past. When asked to describe himself as a player he only went on for several minutes to express how great his compete level and desire to win was. Wich is what this generation is lacking so desperately and the national team can't get enough of as it seems.
 
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I think its more that he is delusional and has his own way of remembering the past. When asked to describe himself as a player he only went on for several minutes to express how great his compete level and desire to win was. Wich is what this generation is lacking so desperately and the national team can't get enough of as it seems.
Cool, so he's either suffering from schizophrenia or from dementia. We're lucky our federation is so glorious that it would never hire this guy. Imagine promoting a completely delusional mickey mouse coach from U18 to U20 head coach. That would never happen in Switzerland.
 

Kuracmugger

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I just discovered that Jenni recently gave an Interview for some scouts hockey podcast. Here are some takeaways that I found Interesting. Its no secret that I am not a big fan of Jenni and most of the other coaches in our junior program but I 'll try to be as neutral as possible.

1. Lindemann and Braillard are apparently joining the training camp no, mention of Gruber though.

2. Jenni says the two most important traits for any prospect for him are compete level and a "team first attitude". He also mentioned that he doesn't like "egotistical players" ("Me players" in his words). So it seems like the coaching staff had issues with those kind of players in the past.

3. He says Huet is in the clear pole position for the starter job at the U18's. Then Kirsch slots in at number 2 and Deussen at number 3. Says that anything can happen though until the tournament starts.

4. Regarding general problems in our junior system he says that agents often are to involved in a prospects career and are filling their heads with promises that are hard to keep sometimes.

5. Says its super important not to leave any player behind, since we have so few of them. He also says he hopes to have two national teams in each age group in the future one consisting of early, one of late birthdays. No mention of Gruber in that context either:D.

6. He seemed to imply that Sweden is in his opinion a better destination for our junior players than the CHL, especially regarding individual development, training drills, education and of ice support.

7. He sees the fault regarding our recent prospect drought mostly at the club level. Says he has to talk to junior coaches at the club level that "his" players get enough ice time. Says that communication with those coaches is difficult.

8. Then he sees a double standard at the pro level between (young) domestic players and imports. He alludes that imports have a guaranteed spot on the roster and are forgiven lacking work ethic. In contrast a young Swiss players often get demoted again after making small mistakes on the ice.

9. When asked about psychological support and mental training he said that he does those things himself. Says in that context that he doesn't like any "interference" from outside.

So take away from those bullet points what you will.
I am happy about 1 the final roster was announced today and braillard is playing(i don’t see a reason why he wouldn’t).
Those are some interesting opinions he states. Statement number 2 kinda depends a player can be a non team first player but this doesn’t mean he’s an egoistic self centered locker room cancer obvious comparison but Mcdavid shows this. I agree on 9 and 5 and 6. And i can’t comment much about the rest i just think he needs to let go uf the team first mentality a bit maybe imply it against a team like canada but we aren’t on the level of belarus or denmark anymore we have Players who are well developed and should be able to atleast compete at this level…

1D213C9F-837D-4E08-96DA-00AF4D1AB49D.jpeg

Final team…
I am intrested what this team can do, maybe the home ice advantage helps us to get an upset but i feel like quarter final is the end…
 

Kuracmugger

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I am happy about 1 the final roster was announced today and braillard is playing(i don’t see a reason why he wouldn’t).
Those are some interesting opinions he states. Statement number 2 kinda depends a player can be a non team first player but this doesn’t mean he’s an egoistic self centered locker room cancer obvious comparison but Mcdavid shows this. I agree on 9 and 5 and 6. And i can’t comment much about the rest i just think he needs to let go uf the team first mentality a bit maybe imply it against a team like canada but we aren’t on the level of belarus or denmark anymore we have Players who are well developed and should be able to atleast compete at this level…

View attachment 691081
Final team…
I am intrested what this team can do, maybe the home ice advantage helps us to get an upset but i feel like quarter final is the end…
I just realised that valdemar Hull isn’t on the team i don’t know how he played in the CHL but i would give him the edge over most these guys. And i kinda feel like most of those player weren’t playing on the national team regularly before.
 

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I am happy about 1 the final roster was announced today and braillard is playing(i don’t see a reason why he wouldn’t).
Those are some interesting opinions he states. Statement number 2 kinda depends a player can be a non team first player but this doesn’t mean he’s an egoistic self centered locker room cancer obvious comparison but Mcdavid shows this. I agree on 9 and 5 and 6. And i can’t comment much about the rest i just think he needs to let go uf the team first mentality a bit maybe imply it against a team like canada but we aren’t on the level of belarus or denmark anymore we have Players who are well developed and should be able to atleast compete at this level…

View attachment 691081
Final team…
I am intrested what this team can do, maybe the home ice advantage helps us to get an upset but i feel like quarter final is the end…
This roster doesn't make sense at all. We're Switzerland, not Canada. This roster includes a whopping four (!!!) underagers despite our 05 group being weak and our 06 group being very strong. The only 05 players clearly deserving of a spot are Braillard, Schneller, Gruber, Lekic and Hull but most of them didn't even make the roster. There's some 05 guys I'm sort of okay they made the roster like the Meiers, Zehnder, Zürcher, Lindemann or Wagner but the rest of them have no business on this team and there would have been 06 kids who are much better than them already.

When you name a squad with not even a handful of underagers that means you expect to win medals. I'm curious to see how Jenni wants to achieve that with this team.
 

Speyer

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This roster doesn't make sense at all. We're Switzerland, not Canada. This roster includes a whopping four (!!!) underagers despite our 05 group being weak and our 06 group being very strong. The only 05 players clearly deserving of a spot are Braillard, Schneller, Gruber, Lekic and Hull but most of them didn't even make the roster. There's some 05 guys I'm sort of okay they made the roster like the Meiers, Zehnder, Zürcher, Lindemann or Wagner but the rest of them have no business on this team and there would have been 06 kids who are much better than them already.

When you name a squad with not even a handful of underagers that means you expect to win medals. I'm curious to see how Jenni wants to achieve that with this team.

I agree with the notion that more 06 born players should have made the cut. I think guys like Neuenschwander, Gian Meier, Forget, Ponzetto and maybe even a few others are better or at least as good as some of the 05 players selected. Then Lekic and Tim Horak should have been on the team too over guys like Martin and (probably) Rhyn (don't know him). I am looking forward to see Timo Bünzli play though, as he was touted the most talented 05 player before a big injury set him back.

While I am not a big fan of Hull he would probably have been more effective in this tournament than the undersized Peddrazzini. Gruber should have been on the roster for his role as a PP specialist alone, despite his terrible season. Its not like we are having many players that can pull the trigger like he can.

All in all I think this an ok roster by our recent standards. Definitely better than last years team but worse than the one from two years ago with consisting of the fairly deep 03 class and Bichsel.
 

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I agree with the notion that more 06 born players should have made the cut. I think guys like Neuenschwander, Gian Meier, Forget, Ponzetto and maybe even a few others are better or at least as good as some of the 05 players selected. Then Lekic and Tim Horak should have been on the team too over guys like Martin and (probably) Rhyn (don't know him). I am looking forward to see Timo Bünzli play though, as he was touted the most talented 05 player before a big injury set him back.

While I am not a big fan of Hull he would probably have been more effective in this tournament than the undersized Peddrazzini. Gruber should have been on the roster for his role as a PP specialist alone, despite his terrible season. Its not like we are having many players that can pull the trigger like he can.

All in all I think this an ok roster by our recent standards. Definitely better than last years team but worse than the one from two years ago with consisting of the fairly deep 03 class and Bichsel.
Probably just should have selected a team full of Meier's in order to confuse the opposition.
 
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Kuracmugger

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I agree with the notion that more 06 born players should have made the cut. I think guys like Neuenschwander, Gian Meier, Forget, Ponzetto and maybe even a few others are better or at least as good as some of the 05 players selected. Then Lekic and Tim Horak should have been on the team too over guys like Martin and (probably) Rhyn (don't know him). I am looking forward to see Timo Bünzli play though, as he was touted the most talented 05 player before a big injury set him back.

While I am not a big fan of Hull he would probably have been more effective in this tournament than the undersized Peddrazzini. Gruber should have been on the roster for his role as a PP specialist alone, despite his terrible season. Its not like we are having many players that can pull the trigger like he can.

All in all I think this an ok roster by our recent standards. Definitely better than last years team but worse than the one from two years ago with consisting of the fairly deep 03 class and Bichsel.
I just haven’t really heard the names like gredig,kaderli or Dorthe before this doesn’t mean they don’t deserve the spot i just feel like jenni just let’s random grinders play. For example i felt like the team last your consisted out of 2/3 2 way hard working kind of players:example almost all the langnau players (kilchenmann,liechti,naber) and kevin zürcher pauli etc
 

Speyer

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Quick update from me after the first game. Take it with a grain of salt, because my stream was about as stable as my ex girlfriend.

Overall it was an OK game for our talent level. We lost against Finland but stayed in the game for long stretches of it. The lack of offensive skill on the team was really evident but the compete level was good. We were still taking way too many stupid penalties as usual, even though it wasnt punished as hard this game as in past tournaments. Huet had a couple of decent stops but his rebound control seemed very weak. I hope Kirsch gets his chance in the next game. Ustinkov had a disappointing game. Looked outmatched at times physically and couldnt create much offensively. Reber was solid. Not that much offense but a good 200 foot game and hustle. Muggli was probably the best swiss player. Very solid in his own zone, used his body very well in board battles and even had a couple of good offensive plays. Seems to be a good skater too. Other than him Balestra, Graf and Rafael Meier looked pretty good too. Braillard was not as noticeable as hoped on 5 vs 5 but scored with a laster beam on the PP.
 

Kuracmugger

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Quick update from me after the first game. Take it with a grain of salt, because my stream was about as stable as my ex girlfriend.

Overall it was an OK game for our talent level. We lost against Finland but stayed in the game for long stretches of it. The lack of offensive skill on the team was really evident but the compete level was good. We were still taking way too many stupid penalties as usual, even though it wasnt punished as hard this game as in past tournaments. Huet had a couple of decent stops but his rebound control seemed very weak. I hope Kirsch gets his chance in the next game. Ustinkov had a disappointing game. Looked outmatched at times physically and couldnt create much offensively. Reber was solid. Not that much offense but a good 200 foot game and hustle. Muggli was probably the best swiss player. Very solid in his own zone, used his body very well in board battles and even had a couple of good offensive plays. Seems to be a good skater too. Other than him Balestra, Graf and Rafael Meier looked pretty good too. Braillard was not as noticeable as hoped on 5 vs 5 but scored with a laster beam on the PP.
Agree on most of these points. Muggli really stood out to me too seemed like almost the only player who tried something offensively. Considering braillard i just feel like this is his play style and he’s more of a PP specialist. Ustinkov was solid but could’ve been better. However i felt like Huet had a great game and made some big saves he was the best swiss player to me. I really didn’t like gioele pedrazzini and jan dorthe-pedrazzini is just not good enough for this level and dorthe couldn’t stop talking Penaltys. Simon Meier played overwhelming too he seemed physically outmatched.
 

pgfan66

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Does anyone know why Lindemann didn’t make the team? I didn’t know about him until a few days ago but watched some games and liked what I saw (especially for Swiss standards).
 

Speyer

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Does anyone know why Lindemann didn’t make the team? I didn’t know about him until a few days ago but watched some games and liked what I saw (especially for Swiss standards).

I know for a fact that Lindemann was at least at the preparation camp for the tournament. I can't really rule out the possibility that he got hurt or sick before the tournament. But it wouldn't surprise me if he just wasn't selected. Our U18 coach has somewhat of a strange philosophy when it comes to roster selection. He seems to really overvalue what is often called "intangibles" on this board. So traits like team first mentality, character etc. Still even if you factor those aspects of the game into the equation, there is just no way Lindemann would't make the team under most other coaches. He is easily a better player than a lot of forwards that are actually on the team. And he played in an actually decent junior league with a high pace of play last season, wich is usually hugely beneficial in such tournaments. And Lindemanns omission wasn't the only questionable choice regarding the team composition either. I mean its not the case that we would be super competitive all of a sudden with our best possible roster but its still frustrating to see that we are not even making the best use of our already limited talent pool.

Unfortunately we can already look forward to see our U18 coach (Marcel Jenni) taking over the U20 team for the next WJC. Yay! :help:
 
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I know for a fact that Lindemann was at least at the preparation camp for the tournament. I can't really rule out the possibility that he got hurt or sick before the tournament. But it wouldn't surprise me if he just wasn't selected. Our U18 coach has somewhat of a strange philosophy when it comes to roster selection. He seems to really overvalue what is often called "intangibles" on this board. So traits like team first mentality, character etc. Still even if you factor those aspects of the game into the equation, there is just no way Lindemann would't make the team under most other coaches. He is easily a better player than a lot of forwards that are actually on the team. And he played in an actually decent junior league with a high pace of play last season, wich is usually hugely beneficial in such tournaments. And Lindemanns omission wasn't the only questionable choice regarding the team composition either. I mean its not the case that we would be super competitive all of a sudden with our best possible roster but its still frustrating to see that we are not even making the best use of our already limited talent pool.

Unfortunately we can already look forward to see our U18 coach (Macel Jenni) taking over the U20 team for the next WJC. Yay! :help:

Correct. We wouldn't be competitive this year no matter what the selection looks like because our 05 group is just too weak. Our 06 group is very strong though and that's why it would have been smart to select mostly underagers in order for them to have international experience next year. You're never favourite if you're Switzerland but with good groups we've won medals before and the 06 group is definitely competitive.

Instead, Jenni decided to select just four underagers and while doing that he didn't even select most of the top 05 players either. That guy is as dumb as it gets. I'd have selected a team of underagers plus Gruber, Braillard, Lekic, Schneller and Hull because they're the only 05 kids clearly better than their 06 peers. There's a few 05 selections I'm sorta cool with but this roster is mostly just dumb.
 
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