Proposal: Tavares or Subban ?

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Mrb1p, I know Tavares is on a whole other level from Kessel. He is probably a top 5 center in the league in terms of offense and his ability to slow down / control the play.

But if you take a look at recent cup winners, they all have 1 thing in common: legit #1 centre and an elite defenseman. For the past 3 winners, Kopitar Toews and Bergeron are elite Two-Way centres. Tavares is easily a better offensive centre than all 3, but all 3 are much better two-way forwards than Tavares.

The past 3 winners also had elite two-way defenseman in Keith, Doughty, Chara. Without their respective elite defensemen, these teams would not even have made the SCF.

In short, trading a young budding two-way defenseman, who until recently was considered elite by most around the league, for an elite centre who for all intents and purposes is one dimensional (even if he is one of the best at that one dimension) is not a way to build a championship team nowadays. You win with good goaltending, strong defence, and good two-way forwards, in that order.

I would say the gap between Toews/Kopitar/Bergeron and Tavares (on whatever level of examination) is significantly narrower than the gap between Doughty/Keith/Weber and Subban (I'll take Tavares over Bergeron every time, honestly, and all 3 of those guys over Subban every time). Hate to sound like I'm ragging on PK, but this kind of homerism is kinda rubbing my the wrong way today.

 

[Lebowski]

I probably wouldn't. The value is obviously there, but from a team standpoint, we'd find ourselves in a bad position trading Subban away for yet another center.

P.K. is playing the worst hockey of his short career lately... So I get why people may be more tempted by trade scenarios. But from what I've seen over the years, Subban in his prime could be one of the best players in the league...

Would I be willing to move Galchenyuk + other pieces for Tavares though? Absolutely. But the + would have to be substantial. If they ask for Pacioretty, for example, I don't think I'd pull the trigger. Might as well be patient with Galchenyuk and hope he gets to the level that's expected of him, which isn't that far from the current Tavares.

I would say the gap between Toews/Kopitar/Bergeron and Tavares (on whatever level of examination) is significantly narrower than the gap between Doughty/Keith/Weber and Subban (I'll take Tavares over Bergeron every time, honestly, and all 3 of those guys over Subban every time). Hate to sound like I'm ragging on PK, but this kind of homerism is kinda rubbing my the wrong way today.

I disagree. Subban at is peak was just as good, if not better, than any of the bolded players' respective peaks... I get that PK has had a rough time lately, but let's not forget he was still in the mix for the Norris at the hallway mark this season... I honestly don't think there's any defenseman that can put up any sort of separation over Subban when he's playing at the level we all know he can play at.

 

[bobholly39]

I voted yes, but it's close.

I absolutely love Subban. However, i like the idea of having on of the top 5 forwards in league in Motreal. I've been a fan since 93, and we've never had such a player.

I wouldn't trade him for guys like Toews, or defensement like Doughty or Webber...I would only say yes for guys like Tavares, or obviously Crosby. Pure offensive talent.

 

[Mrb1p]

I voted yes, but it's close.

I absolutely love Subban. However, i like the idea of having on of the top 5 forwards in league in Motreal. I've been a fan since 93, and we've never had such a player.

I wouldn't trade him for guys like Toews, or defensement like Doughty or Webber...I would only say yes for guys like Tavares, or obviously Crosby. Pure offensive talent.

Exactly, the last time we had a player of Tavares calibre was with who ? Was it Lafleur ? Maybe Naslund ? Although I'm not sure if we consider era.

Meanwhile, we've had the likes of Markov, Chelios, Desjardins, Souray, Robinson, Lapointe.

Either we're good at finding elite Dmans or one commodity is rarer than the other.

 

[Mrb1p]

To note, we also developped our fair share of number one defenseman (Or drafted) like McDonagh.

 

[L4br3cqu3]

Damn, tough one... but I'd say yes, Subban is great, but Tavares ?? **** yeah !

After that, we'd have to dangle DD or Plekanec to get a top 4 RH D, and let Beaulieu/Tinordi/Pateryn try to become something in the NHL.

A pretty good gamble IMO, Tavares is only 23...

 

[TimStrickland]

Good god, no they're not.

You guys really don't watch hockey outside of the Habs, and it disappoint me.

Don't want to derail the thread, but it's not scandalous to say Kessel is the same caliber as Tavares. Both have great offensive instincts and offensive IQ, although Kessel is more technical when it comes to use his hockey intelligence. He seems to rely more on muscle memory than fluid, spontaneous on the spot hockey intelligence. Kessel is a more prolific goalscorer. And he has JT beat when it comes to skating speed and acceleration.

Defensively? Tavares is better in that area, but defensive awareness and positioning can be taught and honed enough to reach adequacy. And its not like Kessel is a slouch defensively, he backchecks with speed.

Both have elite vision, playmaking, and can impact the flow of games. They both make their linemates better. Bozak was an undrafted college signing who looks like now a legit 1st liner because of Kessel. JVR improved his game because of Kessel and made him an Olympian. Lupul in 2011-12 had 67 points in 66 games, largely due to playing with Kessel, one year after being traded to Toronto. He ressurected his career.

Kessel is 3 years older, but its not like he's peaked as of now, and what we see now is what we will see for the rest of his career. His prime is like 2 seasons away, when he will be 28. He can evolve and round his game still.

 

[JoelWarlord]

There isn't a wrong answer here. I get there's a lot of silly negativity about PK on these boards but it isn't a slight against PK to say you would trade him for one of the premier centers in the game on a bargain deal at age 23. I'm not at all on the trade PK bandwagon and this is just a silly thought experiment. Both guys are the kind of player you can build a team around, and both are elite and one of the best in the world at their position. I'm of the opinion that Tavares is a slightly higher end player but there is an argument to be made either way.

That being said a lot of people are seemingly voting Tavares because they don't believe Subban is quite good enough to be called elite or is a substantial step below Keith/Weber which is disheartening because I would hope fans of this team don't fall for the BS narratives that the media parrots around. Subban is elite and on par with the best in the game and it's so frustrating when fans of this team can't see that.

Duncan Keith would never play with Sheldon Brookbank, but somehow Subban is supposed to carry Frankie freaking Bouillion who doesn't belong in this league. Give Subban Keith's deployment (easy minutes while Hjalmarsson-Oduya do the dirty work) and D partner and we're not having this discussion. Hell give him Andrei Markov and it's fine.

 

[Kriss E]

PK is a top athlete and a professional, and thus he is able to have a huge impact on games - and over extended periods. But he is not in the same "calibre" tier as Tavares. Sorry. Backing up, saying that one person's hockey I.Q. is distinctly greater than another =/= one of the two having "questionable" hockey I.Q if we're starting at the "good" end of the scale.

And Tavares has actually received Selke votes playing on the Islanders of '10-'14. Let that sink in for a second. When the Hart voting comes out this year, let that sink in for a second, too (obviously expecting Tavares to garner significantly more votes than Subban).

Subban has made team Canada, he's been our leading scorer for most of the year and is now 2nd, he's our most used player, he's 4th in the NHL for pts, he's 9th in the NHL for ice time. All this while on his worse career year. How about you letting that sink in.
He wasn't just nominated for a trophy, he won the Norris over guys you claim are better. Let that sink in too.

You will not win a Tavares vs PK debate. Nor will I. Both are at the cream of the crop of the NHL. There are arguments for Tavares, and some for PK.
But I think it's ridiculous to compare the hockey IQ of a forward vs a Dman. They look at the game completely different, and have different tasks.

Tavares will get more votes for the Hart? You mean the trophy that was given to a Dman once in more than 40 years?? Wow.
Actually, if Tavares gets some votes for the Hart when he hasn't even played 60games this year and his team is 27th, I'm gonna need some explanations.

But I'm not knocking on Tavares. I love that player. He is indeed one of the best centers in the game, so long as he stays healthy. Too bad he got injured this year, it was a career year for him.
But what PK has accomplished in what many consider his worse season is more impressive imo. It's more impressive because it shows that if this is what a bad PK is, then a good PK will without a doubt be at the top of the NHL for Dmen.
And as I previously stated, I value Dmen more than Forwards.

If I look at our team, Markov close to retiring, without PK, it would be an atrocious defense. Keep PK, without Tavares, well we still have Galchenyuk that is pegged to become a top line center, with Plek-DD-Eller still in the mix, I'm not overly worried about the center position. It would be a stupid organizational move.

 

[chosen]

If you're willing to deal Subban for Tavares, you could do the same with Kessel.

Kessel and Tavares are in the same ballpark when it comes to elite offensive players. Kessel is a top 5 offensive force like Tavares. 2 80+ seasons in 3 years, and 6-time 30+ goal scorer, and he's barely 26 years old.

I'd pick Tavares over Kess solely because of his better, cap-friendly contract. 5.5 millions for a player like him is the best bargain in the league. But its easily a wash on pure hockey comparaisons, and Kessel is not as injury-prone as Tavares.

Thing is most people in Habs fandom would never deal PK for Kessel yet would not hesitate to pull the trigger for Tavares.

BTW I voted no.

Tavares is light years better than Kessler.

 

[HockeyF3ind]

With Garth Snow as gm we might not even have to trade Subban for Tavares

The rights to Vanek at the draft for Tavarse. Book it.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Subban has made team Canada, he's been our leading scorer for most of the year and is now 2nd, he's our most used player, he's 4th in the NHL for pts, he's 9th in the NHL for ice time. All this while on his worse career year. How about you letting that sink in.
He wasn't just nominated for a trophy, he won the Norris over guys you claim are better. Let that sink in too.

You will not win a Tavares vs PK debate. Nor will I. Both are at the cream of the crop of the NHL. There are arguments for Tavares, and some for PK.
But I think it's ridiculous to compare the hockey IQ of a forward vs a Dman. They look at the game completely different, and have different tasks.

Tavares will get more votes for the Hart? You mean the trophy that was given to a Dman once in more than 40 years?? Wow.
Actually, if Tavares gets some votes for the Hart when he hasn't even played 60games this year and his team is 27th, I'm gonna need some explanations.

But I'm not knocking on Tavares. I love that player. He is indeed one of the best centers in the game, so long as he stays healthy. Too bad he got injured this year, it was a career year for him.
But what PK has accomplished in what many consider his worse season is more impressive imo. It's more impressive because it shows that if this is what a bad PK is, then a good PK will without a doubt be at the top of the NHL for Dmen.
And as I previously stated, I value Dmen more than Forwards.

If I look at our team, Markov close to retiring, without PK, it would be an atrocious defense. Keep PK, without Tavares, well we still have Galchenyuk that is pegged to become a top line center, with Plek-DD-Eller still in the mix, I'm not overly worried about the center position. It would be a stupid organizational move.

You don't have to make a case for what's good about PK, or describe your expectations of a parallel Habs universe without him. He plays on my favourite team, too. He's on the board at least a peg below guys like Crosby, Toews, Tavares, Stamkos, etc (maybe pulling level with someone like Bergeron - a fellow NON-1st overall draft pick incidentally) in the grand scheme of things, though, sorry. Whatever anyone's personal philosophies regarding how they would build a team first, or what positions get recognized for what awards more than others, or who gets what votes for whatever awards this year either, I'm willing to bet all 30 GMs easily value Tavares over Subban right now, and I doubt that will change any time in the (near-ish) future unless Tavares ends up more affected by his injury than anyone suspected. That's really all you need to know, although I'll grant you that it's just close enough to prevent that from being a /thread moment.

Put another way, Crosby, Tavares, and Stamkos are the 3 crown jewels of the last two decades of drafting. Subban, while a steal where he went, is not in their skills category, not in the same university of hockey I.Q., simply not as good relative to his peers as those guys, and I suspect not valued as highly by those who ultimately assign value to these guys. Are there teams that could use a(nother) top defenseman more than a(nother) top centre? Probably.

Put a poll up on the mainboard, though, make a separate option for Canadiens and Islanders fans to filter them out, and see what you get from the other 28 fanbases out there. I would expect enough of a landslide in Tavares' favour to kick up a stink on this board, for sure, but that's how homerism works.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Tavares is light years better than Kessler.

How about Kessel, though.

 

[Cedream]

Yes any day of the week

 

[Lebowski]

You don't have to make a case for what's good about PK, or describe your expectations of a parallel Habs universe without him. He plays on my favourite team, too. He's on the board at least a peg below guys like Crosby, Toews, Tavares, Stamkos, etc (maybe pulling level with someone like Bergeron - a fellow NON-1st overall draft pick incidentally) in the grand scheme of things, though, sorry. Whatever anyone's personal philosophies regarding how they would build a team first, or what positions get recognized for what awards more than others, or who gets what votes for whatever awards this year either, I'm willing to bet all 30 GMs easily value Tavares over Subban right now, and I doubt that will change any time in the (near-ish) future unless Tavares ends up more affected by his injury than anyone suspected. That's really all you need to know, although I'll grant you that it's just close enough to prevent that from being a /thread moment.

Put another way, Crosby, Tavares, and Stamkos are the 3 crown jewels of the last two decades of drafting. Subban, while a steal where he went, is not in their skills category, not in the same university of hockey I.Q., simply not as good relative to his peers as those guys, and I suspect not valued as highly by those who ultimately assign value to these guys. Are there teams that could use a(nother) top defenseman more than a(nother) top centre? Probably.

Put a poll up on the mainboard, though, make a separate option for Canadiens and Islanders fans to filter them out, and see what you get from the other 28 fanbases out there. I would expect enough of a landslide in Tavares' favour to kick up a stink on this board, for sure, but that's how homerism works.

Won't make an in depth analysis of all your previous posts, but I can't help but point out that Tavares is no where close to Crosby, in any way. We're talking about someone that played above a PPG for the first time of his career this season, and only over 59 games.

As for the three crown jewels comment, no, not at all. What separation has Tavares put up with anyone to warrant that kind of title? Hell, even Stamkos is a huge stretch at this point... May go down as one of the best goalscorers of all-time, but he himself is also quite a bit below Crosby...

If there's any such thing as a trio of Crown jewels drafted players over the last 20 years, it's Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin. Tavares doesn't belong there.

 

[Kriss E]

You don't have to make a case for what's good about PK, or describe your expectations of a parallel Habs universe without him. He plays on my favourite team, too. He's on the board at least a peg below guys like Crosby, Toews, Tavares, Stamkos, etc (maybe pulling level with someone like Bergeron - a fellow NON-1st overall draft pick incidentally) in the grand scheme of things, though, sorry. Whatever anyone's personal philosophies regarding how they would build a team first, or what positions get recognized for what awards more than others, or who gets what votes for whatever awards this year either, I'm willing to bet all 30 GMs easily value Tavares over Subban right now, and I doubt that will change any time in the (near-ish) future unless Tavares ends up more affected by his injury than anyone suspected. That's really all you need to know, although I'll grant you that it's just close enough to prevent that from being a /thread moment.

Well, first off, I disagree with your opinion that Tavares is as high as Crosby, or even Stamkos.
I also disagree that every GM would pick Subban over Tavares. Not to mention, you are talking about today, when Tavares is injured and PK is arguably having his worst career year. But it's all pretty irrelevant as we'll never actually know the answer.
I think you would change your own opinion if PK was having a great year too.

Put another way, Crosby, Tavares, and Stamkos are the 3 crown jewels of the last two decades of drafting. Subban, while a steal where he went, is not in their skills category, not in the same university of hockey I.Q., simply not as good relative to his peers as those guys, and I suspect not valued as highly by those who ultimately assign value to these guys. Are there teams that could use a(nother) top defenseman more than a(nother) top centre? Probably.

Well again, I disagree with your 3 crown jewels to begin with, but I also find it's comparing apples and oranges when discussing hockey IQ between forwards and Dmen. They are all very smart hockey players. That's all.

Put a poll up on the mainboard, though, make a separate option for Canadiens and Islanders fans to filter them out, and see what you get from the other 28 fanbases out there. I would expect enough of a landslide in Tavares' favour to kick up a stink on this board, for sure, but that's how homerism works.

On the mainboard? Really? How desperate are you to prove your point?
PK is one of the most hated players by other fans, and you're expecting to get a fair poll out of it?
Make a poll now and I bet you don't even get a vast majority agreeing that PK is a top 30 D in the NHL anyways. I don't need to tell you how bad the mainboard is.
Not to mention, everybody prefers forwards.

There is no point in arguing about this really. You prefer Tavares, which is fine. It's not a knock on PK. I'd rather keep PK for various reasons, and it's not a knock on Tavares.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Won't make an in depth analysis of all your previous posts, but I can't help but point out that Tavares is no where close to Crosby, in any way. We're talking about someone that played above a PPG for the first time of his career this season, and only over 59 games.

As for the three crown jewels comment, no, not at all. What separation has Tavares put up with anyone to warrant that kind of title? Hell, even Stamkos is a huge stretch at this point... May go down as one of the best goalscorers of all-time, but he himself is also quite a bit below Crosby...

If there's any such thing as a trio of Crown jewels drafted players over the last 20 years, it's Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin. Tavares doesn't belong there.

Do you... watch Tavares at all? I mean, actually watch him night in and night out literally carry half of a sad-sack squad of hockey players at least a safe distance from the land of complete humiliation? Not just with effort, mind you. The guy can grind, skate (no doubt there'll be a recovery period here), defend, shoot, dangle, and pass with the best of them. Stick Malkin and Ovechkin in there if you like (not that I think they needed mentioning in the first place), and it doesn't change anything. To clarify something you've perhaps misunderstood, in any "elite" tier, Crosby occupies my very top position, not some middle of the road position, so if I include anyone in that tier with him, they obviously follow not "equal" him.

For your reference, here's a list of the top scorers on the Islanders since Tavares joined them: List. Over 5 years, the next highest scoring Islander averages 45 points/year... thanks to playing with Tavares. Really is too bad that he has missed such a chunk of this year (not to mention basically the whole Olympics). The Islanders could have played even better spoilers down the stretch at the very least (5-5 isn't a bad record over the last 10, but the wins weren't exactly meaningful to anyone's playoff standings aside from Columbus).

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Well again, I disagree with your 3 crown jewels to begin with

Well, even I have to disagree with the 3 part of it at this point, lol. But put it this way: if everyone went into a dispersal draft tomorrow, and teams alternated picking from the entire NHLPA until teams were full (so existing team chemistry/composition/etc is irrelevant), you can pretty much assume that GMs are going to target the best centre possible to build around first, and right now I don't think there are (perhaps were, before the injury) any names higher than Crosby, Stamkos, Toews, Malkin (I'll give you that one), and Tavares on the wish list. I think they'd go above everyone that's left; from Getzlaf to Thornton, Giroux to Duchene, Backstrom to Krejci or Bergeron. Those five guys ARE that good.

 

[S Bah]

I was just wondering what the Board thinks about this. Lets just pretend that it was possible to trade P. K. Subban straight up for John Tavares.

Would you do it ?

I said No!, but I would love to have Tavares join his buddy Subban as a Hab. They could pick-up where they left off winning for Team Canada, both as Juniors & NHLers at the Olympics. The Habs could be even better with a couple more Canadians playing for them, especially ones as talented as those two.

 

[Tarasenko]

I would trade Subban for Tavares every day of the year, 100 times out of 100.

 

[Hackett]

I would go with tavares. That is no knock on subban, its just how highly I think of tavares.

If there is one center that I could pick to go punch for punch against Crosby in a series, its tavares. I don't think tavares gets enough credit, but that could be due to the market he plays in.

 

[Puckinfilet]

Neither team is doing this.

MTL would in a heartbeat. NYI wouldn't consider it.
I'm a subban fan. Tavares is simply the better player. And his contract!