Tatar and Nyquist, are they really the answer?

[dtones520]

I am definitely in the minority on my thoughts on these two, but I frankly don't understand what all the fuss is about these guys. They both seem like Filppula and Hudler v2. They are small, skilled players who both play incredibly small. Neither of them are elite goal scorers, they are more playmaker type players, neither of them are guys who can score the mucky goals. They don't really help open up space for guys like Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

I see people on here clam,wring for them both to be in the top 6, so we would have 5 playmaking guys in our top six and one guy, Brunner, who is a bit more of a sniper. When this team has been good it has had a mix of skill and guys who can score the dirty goals in their lineup. When Franzen was tearing it up and Holmstrom was scoring 20-30 goals a year is when this team was really good in the top six. Heck, even Danny Cleary was playing well in that role. Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still playing like they did in those times, as is Filppula, but Franzen lost his game. Holmstrom is gone and Cleary sucks now. The one guy on this team that has played well in that role this year, Bertuzzi, hasn't been healthy at all.

So what is this team really lacking? I don't think it is skill players up front. This team needs power forwards who can play and get in the dirty areas and get those ugly goals that win games. That and a 3rd line that can actually produce and play a physical brand of hockey. But just throwing more small skill players into our top six isn't going to solve anything or make us into a bigger postseason threat.

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[Mort Divine]

Tatar doesn't play small. at all.

 

[sully6one]

Watch a few games of Tatar and repost this thread

 

[PullHard]

I am definitely in the minority on my thoughts on these two, but I frankly don't understand what all the fuss is about these guys. They both seem like Filppula and Hudler v2. They are small, skilled players who both play incredibly small. Neither of them are elite goal scorers, they are more playmaker type players, neither of them are guys who can score the mucky goals. They don't really help open up space for guys like Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

I see people on here clam,wring for them both to be in the top 6, so we would have 5 playmaking guys in our top six and one guy, Brunner, who is a bit more of a sniper. When this team has been good it has had a mix of skill and guys who can score the dirty goals in their lineup. When Franzen was tearing it up and Holmstrom was scoring 20-30 goals a year is when this team was really good in the top six. Heck, even Danny Cleary was playing well in that role. Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still playing like they did in those times, as is Filppula, but Franzen lost his game. Holmstrom is gone and Cleary sucks now. The one guy on this team that has played well in that role this year, Bertuzzi, hasn't been healthy at all.

So what is this team really lacking? I don't think it is skill players up front. This team needs power forwards who can play and get in the dirty areas and get those ugly goals that win games. That and a 3rd line that can actually produce and play a physical brand of hockey. But just throwing more small skill players into our top six isn't going to solve anything or make us into a bigger postseason threat.

Tatar has been doing exactly what you just described. Haven't all of his goals been within feet of the net? Or at least most of them? Donno if you're watching him closely enough. Nyquist I agree with, not the type of guy who can be called up right now and succeed unless given the prime minutes being on a line with Pav and on the PP with great players. Doesn't have the other physical tools to be as effective as Tatar has been in a bottom 6 role. One direction to go would be to call them both up and have Nyquist replace Flip by the trade deadline, then trade Flip+ for defensive help (longterm solutions only).

 

[solo16]

Tartar is dangerous. He is hard to compare players too because few play his game.

He is like a Grittier less accurate Brunner. The guy just loves to get in the slot and sling the puck at the net. His cycle is actually pretty decent as well. He is without a doubt the best bottom 6er on this team right now. I cant wait to see a Helm Tartar Abdelkader line. (Tartar shows the most chemistry with Abdelkader so far).

I think he notched a spot on this team for the rest of the year. He just plays the way Babcock wants. (similar to Brunner). Of course that means Nyquist might be waiting till next year.

 

[WesNichols14]

better Tatar stick in the line up as well. Tatar has spent 4 years in the AHL Gus is in his 2nd full season. its down there in the A that Tatar learned how to be a quality 3rd line player, Nyquist could really use that. not only that but this removes a lot of the worry of Tatar going to the KHL. note I'm not saying bolting since he has done everything he could do to make this team and if they told him no again no one could blame him for leaving.
I still hate thinking this but I want us to lose this year and draft a blue chip superstar. that way if Gus and Tats just turn out to be just good to great secondary scoring which I think they both could be stars. We would have a superstar to carry the team.
also Lindholm fell to 9th overall in the latest ratings last I saw

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Tatar shoots on goal and takes the puck on goal.
Whether or not he'll ever be elite... who knows?
Could be be a 30 to 35 goal scorer? Is that elite?

I'm excited about the kid. I see a 30 goal 60 point kind of guy
We'll see about Nyquist. I've seen flashes of really nice skill. But I haven't seen it translate yet. I see him as a 24-goal 65 point guy.

But who knows?

Tatar has goal scoring in his blood. Any fool can see that. He's not one of the Red Wings' pass-first guys.

If all he does is reach Hudler level... I'm fine with that.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

They obviously aren't THE answer, but they are most certainly a part of it. The Filppula/Hudler comparison is valid in terms of overall value. They aren't going to be franchise players, but they will be above average ones, ones that we will desperately need for depth in a few years.

I have seen absolutely zero people on this board proclaim them to be franchise player level

 

[Kyleftlx]

It isn't that Nyquist and Tatar are "the answer", it's just that Nyquist and Tatar are two players who are in Detroit's system right this moment that can come in and make Detroit a better hockey club right this moment. Playing Tatar and Nyquist at the NHL level is an improvement over x player that Babcock would be willing to scratch in favor of them.

Clearly, those two hockey players aren't going to be enough alone to change Detroit from a 6-10 seed to a 1-5 seed, but the fact that they can help out, develop themselves, improve to become better hockey players that are fixtures in Detroit's future lineup is good enough for fans on this board to want them in the NHL over guys who are quickly approaching the end of their time here in Detroit, and wearing out their welcome here.

 

[Winger98]

I don't understand the desire to have a crash&bang third line...isn't that what fourth lines are for? I don't think either player is soft, and both up our skill level - something that has taken a big hit with the injuries. Of course, I also disagree with the OP that Franzen has "lost his game," so I probably just see things differently on some of these issues.

 

[Frk It]

You should be asking if Sproul, Ouellet, Brendan Smith are the answer. Because the defense needs a hell of a lot more work than the offense at this point.

 

[19 for president]

Tatar is exactly what this team needs, which is a gritty scorer that plays with some energy. He is perfect for our bottom 6 because he can actually score. Having two pure grind lines means that this team can't score. He has played very well and is physically suited to this game.

On the other hand Nyquist has looked pretty weak thus far, but I wouldn't say he has been much weaker than say Brunner. The difference is that Brunner is a shooter while Nyquist is a bit more of a playmaker. When the Wings signed Brunner they pretty much gave Nyquists spot to him this year. The Wings would have one of the weakest top 6 in the game if they had both Brunner and Nyquist in it. Wings simply need to bring in some bigger compliment players. The defense is getting bigger but the O remains abnormaly small. Now don't get me wrong I think Nyquist is going to be a great player but he needs another 10lbs of muscle and to play in a lineup without a bunch of other "small" players. If the Wings could deal Flip for a dman or bigger forward I would seriously consider it.

 

[Flowah]

If all he does is reach Hudler level... I'm fine with that.

He'd be a slightly bigger, somewhat faster Hudler.

Who the hell could complain about that?

As for the topic itself.

Imagine if we could dump Cleary and put Tatar or Nyquist in his place. Especially on our struggling PP.

Or what we could do with the extra money.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

The "answer" would be a clear replacement to Datsyuk and Zetterberg.... as well as the next Lidstrom.

It's what we all want, and yet all realize is a pipe dream.

This team needs to be a roll 4 lines team again, and I am optimistic they have the talent in the pipeline to become that - and the Wings could be a very dangerous team.

At the same time - I am really homeristic about the chances of Mrazek, Jarnkrok, Quine, Sproul, Backman - finding at least one superstar. I'm still optimistic.

 

[pdd]

He'd be a slightly bigger, somewhat faster Hudler.

Who the hell could complain about that?

Nobody. The only complaints about Hudler were his size, his slow skating, and his defensive game which was poor compared to other Detroit forwards.

Basically you'd have a faster, bigger Hudler where the only (potential) complaint is his defense.

I should also note that I'm quite amused that during the offseason and lockout everyone was more than happy to let Hudler go, but now "Hudler level" seems to be a goal we're hoping Nyquist, Tatar, etc. reach and would be satisfied if they do so.

I find that interesting.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Nobody. The only complaints about Hudler were his size, his slow skating, and his defensive game which was poor compared to other Detroit forwards.

Basically you'd have a faster, bigger Hudler where the only (potential) complaint is his defense.

I should also note that I'm quite amused that during the offseason and lockout everyone was more than happy to let Hudler go, but now "Hudler level" seems to be a goal we're hoping Nyquist, Tatar, etc. reach and would be satisfied if they do so.

I find that interesting.

What's interesting about it?
1) Tatar and Nyquist might provide the same production at far less than $4M.
2) Tatar and Nyquist should prove better defensively and perhaps on the boards too.
3) Babcock didn't like Hudler. So he wasn't going to thrive here as long as Babcock was here. Same can be said for Kindl -- unless he can just turn into a stud overnight.
Apparently, no-talent, poor defensive players like Lashoff can just step right in and play every night with Datsyuk Zetterberg and Kronwall.

 

[VladTheImpaler]

What the top-six needs is top-six forwards who PLAY like top-six forwards. Look at a team like Chicago...Toews, Hossa, Kane, Sharp, Bolland and Saad...those guys can all carry the load. By comparison, we have Pav, Z and Brunner that we can rely on pretty much night after night. We don't know what kind of play we can count on from Filppula or Mule; Cleary (lol), Sammy and Bert are plugs; and Babs won't give legit top-six minutes to Nyquist or Tatar, so as much as Babs and Kenny like to say, "we know what we have in them" in reality, we really don't know what those two are capable of.

I'm not saying that bringing Tatar and Nyquist into the top-six full-time would give us an equal group to the one in Chicago, but sooner or later we need to give them a shot.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

The only two forwards who have been better than Tatar the past few games are 13 and 40. He's a better skater than I had imagined, is patient with the puck, and has a real good feel for the offensive zone. Not only does he need to stay with the big club the rest of the year, but his role needs to expand until we get healthy. Once healthy, I think him and Helm could be a great combo for pressuring opponents as a 3rd line.

 

[RedWinger10]

I will say this, in the last few games Tatar played with heart and intensity. He wants that roster spot and he's earning it in my book. I wish the way he plays would rub off on his teammates. You can definitely tell he wants it.

 

[joe89]

Whenever you can get top six forwards from the 2nd round and beyond, take it and run. Grooming own top six forwards saves you A LOT of $.

If they ever hit off beyond that is just bonus, that is not something you know before they enter the league.

 

[Claypool]

Tatar and Nyquist are still in their early 20's. I don't think anyone expected Datsyuk to evolve into one of the best players in the game back in 2002. Same with Zetterberg. Things take time.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Tatar and Nyquist are still in their early 20's. I don't think anyone expected Datsyuk to evolve into one of the best players in the game back in 2002. Same with Zetterberg. Things take time.

Datsyuk wasn't hyped from my recollection, but it didn't take long to see that he had an abnormal level of skill. When he started doing things with the puck that I had literally never seen before, I really didn't know what his ceiling was. He just needed to get stronger and less passive offensively. I never, ever imagined his overall game becoming so complete though. Hats off to Hull though. He was constantly talking about how Datsyuk could become one of the best players in the world during his first few years.

Z was more hyped by the time he entered the NHL. It took him a while to get there, but for a year there was a lot of talk about him. Because once Datsyuk took off during his rookie year I remember the broadcasters talking about the other kid who was on the way as well. I remember hearing Forsberg comparisons and I even believe that quite a few people considered him the best player not in the NHL.

With Nyquist, we've seen flashes of a high skill level and creativity. Not on a Datsyuk level, but enough to believe he could be a real good top 6 forward that sparks the offense. Much like Datsyuk though, he has to get a lot stronger to maximize his skill. So there's definitely a lot of potential there, but he has to want it and be committed to it like Pav and Z were.

Tatar on the other hand doesn't have the pure skill or creativity as the other 3 IMO, but he still has the skill set to be a real good player. And as we've recently seen, he's further along than Nyquist and more of a sure thing. Nyquist has a higher ceiling though. But Tatar's skating, puck control, and offensive sense is already at an NHL ready. He can be an effective 3rd liner with some offensive flare, or he could develop into a 1st or 2nd line winger. I really like the growth we've seen out of him and I love the passion and intensity in his game. His time in the AHL should effectively be over with now.

 

[polymath]

 

[Henkka]

I am definitely in the minority on my thoughts on these two, but I frankly don't understand what all the fuss is about these guys. They both seem like Filppula and Hudler v2. They are small, skilled players who both play incredibly small. Neither of them are elite goal scorers, they are more playmaker type players, neither of them are guys who can score the mucky goals. They don't really help open up space for guys like Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

I see people on here clam,wring for them both to be in the top 6, so we would have 5 playmaking guys in our top six and one guy, Brunner, who is a bit more of a sniper. When this team has been good it has had a mix of skill and guys who can score the dirty goals in their lineup. When Franzen was tearing it up and Holmstrom was scoring 20-30 goals a year is when this team was really good in the top six. Heck, even Danny Cleary was playing well in that role. Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still playing like they did in those times, as is Filppula, but Franzen lost his game. Holmstrom is gone and Cleary sucks now. The one guy on this team that has played well in that role this year, Bertuzzi, hasn't been healthy at all.

So what is this team really lacking? I don't think it is skill players up front. This team needs power forwards who can play and get in the dirty areas and get those ugly goals that win games. That and a 3rd line that can actually produce and play a physical brand of hockey. But just throwing more small skill players into our top six isn't going to solve anything or make us into a bigger postseason threat.

Agree mostly with you. We need those big-sized forwards who have ability to screen nowadays monster goalies and win board battles, and exhaust the opposing defence. Small forwards aren't going to do that. Goalies can see easily over them and small guys cheking does not exhaust defencemen. They just take the hit and smile.

Tatar does that hard work, but he isn't a big player. But I'm not saying that's a bad thing. He really is impressive guys to watch, he inspires the team with his 110% effort and that gets other lazyasses going who have bad habits to sleep down there during the games. He will be important complimentary part of the team in the future for sure. He could be what we lost in Igor Grigorenko a decade ago.

Nyquist is still a project, he will be there next season and he will be a big help with the tighter salary cap (production related to salary).

One direction to go would be to call them both up and have Nyquist replace Flip by the trade deadline, then trade Flip+ for defensive help (longterm solutions only).

I smell the same. We could let Filppula go, because othervise he could turn to be too expensive 2nd line player, and we replace him with Nyquist, whose career peak is much nearer of our current wave of top prospects (Ouellet, Sproul, Mrazek, Järnkrok, Smith).

I still hate thinking this but I want us to lose this year and draft a blue chip superstar. that way if Gus and Tats just turn out to be just good to great secondary scoring which I think they both could be stars. We would have a superstar to carry the team.

Yes, this is the best possible year to tank if are going to tank, half of the entertainment was already lost during the lockout. I still have the ultimate dream of Alexander Barkov.

Tatar has goal scoring in his blood. Any fool can see that. He's not one of the Red Wings' pass-first guys.

If all he does is reach Hudler level... I'm fine with that.

He is like "Hudler" with better speed and grit (and ability to play also in defensive lines/cheking role). That's a pretty nice package.

I don't understand the desire to have a crash&bang third line...isn't that what fourth lines are for? I don't think either player is soft, and both up our skill level - something that has taken a big hit with the injuries. Of course, I also disagree with the OP that Franzen has "lost his game," so I probably just see things differently on some of these issues.

I don't understand either. Usually that is a mark of a weak team. Great teams have three lines that can score, but that 3rd line has to be great defensively. Just like Anaheim has at the moment.

I also agree Franzen hasn't lost anything exept health. He is adjusting in a new role of that "floating sniper" to a net-front specialist we need after Homer. That takes some time.

You should be asking if Sproul, Ouellet, Brendan Smith are the answer. Because the defense needs a hell of a lot more work than the offense at this point.

Nailed it. Pretty much of this.

 

[mindfly]

Tank and draft Jones with 1st overall and Hägg with 31st overall

Kronwall-Jones
Ouellet-Sproul
Bäckman-Smith

HM's: Hägg, Marchenko

There's the solution. Two pairs has one righty and one lefty (if marchenko turns out great replace smith with him), each pair has a more defensive minded Dman and one offensive. (Kronwall is not the no.1 D, they're listed as they would play as Left D and right D)