Post-Game Talk: Talbot deep sixes the Oilers from center ice (Lose 6-2)

[Aerrol]

Well maybe we are agreeing then.

This team has historically been mentally frail. It's a loser attitude and they will never be able to win consistently until they lose it. It's what Chia has been talking about... the futility that creeps in if you lack a champion's resolve.

Is a goalie more likely to influence team morale than any other player?... yeah... most of us reluctantly learn to deal with that. Our job is 1) not make any mistakes, and 2) bail you out from your mistakes and 3) deal with the double-standard that you will not be held accountable to your mistakes since we are there to hide them.

I think my point is that blaming the goalie for a mental error like that is just so ironic... if the Oilers team had 50% of the mental fortitude and attention to detail as even a replacement level, average NHL goalie... then we'd be winning 67% of our games given our talent level.

Talbot is better than that... most nights he's one of our better players and sets the stage for the rest of the team to realize that there is a game being played. We rely on him that way in most 1st periods. He deserves better than the attitudes being thrown around in this thread... the idea that it was OK for the team to fold on him after a bad goal, simply because it was THAT bad. That implies a serious lack of leadership on this team.

This sums up what I've been trying to get across very well. Talbot was unacceptably bad, but how the team responded is a troubling sign that the team still hasn't improved meaningfully in culture/leadership.

 

[Aerrol]

Maybe wants to get into coaching, the Oilers definitely could use an extra set of eyes on their goalies right now. Anyone have word on Monster?

There was a score article that said he wasn't dressing vs the Canes.

 

[McTedi]

Well maybe we are agreeing then.

This team has historically been mentally frail. It's a loser attitude and they will never be able to win consistently until they lose it. It's what Chia has been talking about... the futility that creeps in if you lack a champion's resolve.

Is a goalie more likely to influence team morale than any other player?... yeah... most of us reluctantly learn to deal with that. Our job is 1) not make any mistakes, and 2) bail you out from your mistakes and 3) deal with the double-standard that you will not be held accountable to your mistakes since we are there to hide them.

I think my point is that blaming the goalie for a mental error like that is just so ironic... if the Oilers team had 50% of the mental fortitude and attention to detail as even a replacement level, average NHL goalie... then we'd be winning 67% of our games given our talent level.

Talbot is better than that... most nights he's one of our better players and sets the stage for the rest of the team to realize that there is a game being played. We rely on him that way in most 1st periods. He deserves better than the attitudes being thrown around in this thread... the idea that it was OK for the team to fold on him after a bad goal, simply because it was THAT bad. That implies a serious lack of leadership on this team.

You are over analyzing this. There was no losers attitude displayed last night and I think the better team won. Talbot was no where near as good as Lehner and that 3rd goal against was kind of a back breaker after the team responded late in the first. I think most here do believe that Talbot can and will get better. I think McLellan was pissed at his team's effort from the get go and maybe overreacted just slightly causing even more disruption. Kassian who has been flying definitely deserved more ice and RNH needs to find some touch because the team isn't paying him to be Lestestu.

 

[joestevens29]

Just throwing it out there, but can we even play JDD as a backup even if we needed him? Don't really remember being allowed to sign a guy who was a pro to one of those amateur one day contracts.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

This sums up what I've been trying to get across very well. Talbot was unacceptably bad, but how the team responded is a troubling sign that the team still hasn't improved meaningfully in culture/leadership.

The team responded after two SHGs by Calgary. They responded after their bad first period the next game. They responded by tying the game last night after a bad start. They finally ran into something they couldn't overcome: An atrocious goal.

 

[St8Sh00ter]

​

Do you even understand goaltending.

Goalies stop the shots that get to them.
and
save the ones that are targeted at open areas in the net.

Puck that hit a goalie were never going to go in.
things like
1. into the Chest protector
2. shot into the golaies glove before any movement. then the goalie glove swing
3. shot into the blocker before goalie movement.
Shot into the pads before goalie movement.

75% of goals come form on average 10.5 High scoring chance shots in a game.

Talbot faced 23 shots in the game.
21 HSC shots 2 LSC shots.

LSC shots:
1 that hit him (closed hole) and one that bounced to an open hole situation which he filed to save.

HSC shot results are driven by the shots targeted at open holes.

there are a whole collection of shots directed into blocker; glove; chest protector and pads that a goalie does not have to move on.

These are closed hole shots.
They have almost 0% chance of going in.

Talbot faced twice as many HSC shots as a goalie should in a Game.
so he should have given up 5 GA in the game.

He had one bounce ang redirect to an open hole in the net.


Elite dmen like Larsson usually give up 2.1 HSC shots in 18 min EVTOI.

the guy faced 7 in 20 minutes of EV, PP, PK

that game was Awful defensively.

Could be worse could have been the OTT goalie in the Toronto Ott game.
in the top 20% of worst HSC shot games in the modern ERA.

You kind of want the best HSCA save% golaies in the game.
when you look at the last 3 years all situations.
1. Price .8404
2. Schnieder .8356
3. Halak .8332
4. Jones .8294
5. Elliot .8275
6. Holtby .8273
7. Crawford .8262
8. Talbot .8253
9. Bernier .8216
10. Mrazek .8183

here is the key factor:
over a season the open hole to closed hole ratio might move towards the median.
the HSCA # will vary from team to team.

Talbot faced 3 times as many open hole shots than a goalie normally faces in a game
he should have given up 3 X 2.62= 7.9 Goals.


Our Defence was brutally awful.
The 1st and 3rd games GA were all about the Dmen.

The open hole shot count the Ottawa golaies faced against Toronto was historically bad.

How many HSC shots does talbot have to face when pouliot is in the box for a dumb penalty?

 

[DreamTheatre]

I’m worried about Talbot. I remember when I had my first kid, I was so nervous leading up to it and then you don’t sleep at all for so long.

I gotta feeling he will have a few more bad games here.

 

[Aerrol]

The team responded after two SHGs by Calgary. They responded after their bad first period the next game. They responded by tying the game last night after a bad start. They finally ran into something they couldn't overcome: An atrocious goal.

They had more than half a game left to play after that. I'd have hoped they could at least push back in that time.

 

[McClelland]

A goalie can LOSE a 3-2 game.

A goalie does not LOSE a 6-2 game unless he allows 4+ weak goals, which he did not.

If you think otherwise, I would submit that you have become infected with what qualifies as acceptable TEAM PLAY by this brand of Oilers-loser hockey.

It may be too long since you saw Fernando Pisani adjust his forecheck route on a FAILED Jared Stoll forecheck, which then lead to one of his GWGs in 2006. Good teams recover from teammate's mistakes. They do it in real time and they ESPECIALLY do it after they have time to compose themselves.

Our recent teams have had no composure and therefore you are all accepting butterfly-effect hockey, where one guys mistake sets about am immutable sequence of catastrophia that cannot be stopped by professional behaviour. That's a losers' attitude.

I defended Dubnyk to the bitter end, he had problem with equipment rules and then lost confidence! Talbot hasnt showed yet in his career that he is a no 1 goalie, hes born a backup behind a strong no 1.

Did you even look at the game last night? Last night was a close game and Talbot spread stress to the team when everything went in on him. The others didnt make a strong game, but enough to win a close game if they had normal goaltending.

Team sending out goons to change momentum and wake up their team. How many times have we seen teams dominate , but suddenly a unexpected goal and everything changes, its in the mankinds nature. Talbot showed no spirit and let in everything and the team had no answer to come back one more time,

And praise for lehner for some A+ saves especially early in the game.
Nothing more to discuss, people view things differently and has bias to different players. If Talbot wasnt our goalie alternative this season, then Mclellan had runnned him over with a bus after the game(see Fayne).

Cheers!

 

[BoldNewLettuce]

I’m worried about Talbot. I remember when I had my first kid, I was so nervous leading up to it and then you don’t sleep at all for so long.

I gotta feeling he will have a few more bad games here.

just get fayne to babysit for him or something

 

[bucks_oil]

The Oilers recovered from their own mistakes but not Talbot's. Yes they were full marks for their early deficit but battled back.

To me the goals that came after were largely a result of the 3rd goal. The Oilers worked to tie the game and to see a no effort, completely stoppable goal go in just crushes a team that needs every player on board, especially their goalie.

If Talbot doesn't let that in I fully believe the Oilers win the game.

Them vs Him.

People often ask what makes goalies so crazy... and they wonder if it is the pucks flying at their heads and other such things. It isn't... it is backwards attitudes about what team play is... like yours.

The tolerance for mistakes that most goalies have for themselves is close to zero. If you want a save percentage above .900 you pretty much need to make no mistakes. And thus you expect the same attention to detail from your better teammates and in trade you are willing to mask their mistakes and bail them out. That's team play.

On the flip side, (some) players can allow themselves multiple mistakes and simply "try harder" next shift... most of their mistakes lead nowhere because a team mate will bail them out and there won't even be a shot against. Sometimes it's a larger mistake, and even then, there is a 80-90% chance the goalie will bail them out.

And if a goal goes in? Some will recognize their mistake, but often... the real culprit. You know, that guy with no skill who tried to dangle at the opposite blueline instead of dumping it in like his coach said? There's like a 50-50 chance he doesn't even realize he made a mistake.

And then it gets worse... if the goalie makes a mistake, some of those players that share your views on team play will absolve themselves of complete responsibility for the rest of the game. I mean the goalie let in a REALLY bad goal... so what could we do?

 

[Defsta]

Holy ****, it sounds like season is over after one loss.

 

[Up the Irons]

aahh. guys, we are over analyzing this loss. It was just a really bad game by our goalie (he is allow a few over 60 games, hopefully < 5)

and a whole team that was a bit over confident, and.... it was Sunday, the day after Saturday night, and this team is still pretty immature.

no need for changes just yet. they just have to take this wake up call for what it is and grow up .... quickly.

if not, there will be more changes.

 

[McDynasty]

Warm body would not be better but just the same. Our defensive unit is a complete joke. Larrson is just a turd. Rest of the league laughs at that deal still. Execs and the like.

I found someone who actually does not watch the games this year. Execs and the like, lol

 

[DipsyMcDoodles]

I found someone who actually does not watch the games this year. Execs and the like, lol

Yeah no kidding this is hilarious

 

[A91]

Former Oilers goalie Jeff Drouin-Deslauriers is skating with the team as the extra netminder.

Cool guy. Used to be a frequent cutomer at the SaveON i worked at a few years ago. Just a massive french dude.
Not the ideal backup but could do worse.

 

[joestevens29]

I found someone who actually does not watch the games this year. Execs and the like, lol

The fact that the guy is a lot more nastier than I expected is just a bonus. No reason to hate on the player at all.

 

[oilerbear]

I defended Dubnyk to the bitter end, he had problem with equipment rules and then lost confidence! Talbot hasnt showed yet in his career that he is a no 1 goalie, hes born a backup behind a strong no 1.

Did you even look at the game last night? Last night was a close game and Talbot spread stress to the team when everything went in on him. The others didnt make a strong game, but enough to win a close game if they had normal goaltending.

Team sending out goons to change momentum and wake up their team. How many times have we seen teams dominate , but suddenly a unexpected goal and everything changes, its in the mankinds nature. Talbot showed no spirit and let in everything and the team had no answer to come back one more time,

And praise for lehner for some A+ saves especially early in the game.
Nothing more to discuss, people view things differently and has bias to different players. If Talbot wasnt our goalie alternative this season, then Mclellan had runnned him over with a bus after the game(see Fayne).

Cheers!

Goalies stop shots.

Since most of the goals come from in front of the net in the High scoring chance area were they go in 8.5 to 30% of the time.
.915 to .700 save %

you might want the best in the game.

But price is not available.

So we get one of the top 8 in all siutations
and
#2 in Even and Pk situation.

His PP save% is one of the lowest in the league for some reason.
Tmac you might want to watch Nelson's PP video!

------------------------------------------------

People view things differently is just saying they Guess!
you are making up Stuff.

You stating normal goaltending is a lie.

Normal goal tending is .7200 save % for PP hsc shots.
Normal goaltending is .7900 for even HSC shots.

Normal goaltending for open hole shots is .5500


I looked at shot chart results.
Video of shots
Video of shots in elevation.
that would be data and facts.
Reality!

to come up with a indicated system.

The feed back from the coaching community I meet in Salmon arm Hockey fest was an Ego rush!

 

[joestevens29]

Cool guy. Used to be a frequent cutomer at the SaveON i worked at a few years ago. Just a massive french dude.
Not the ideal backup but could do worse.

Well outside of grabbing posters from HF I don'n think we can do worse.

Really just think we needed a body for practice.

 

[Esko]

Awful performance by the team- not sure if I am more disappointed in the 3rd goal allowed or how the Oilers rolled over and died afterwards. Obviously Talbot should have been better but I'm more intrigued to see how the team responds tomorrow night. Put this one behind you and beat a Carolina team that has given up two 3 goal leads. It would be a step in the right direction if Edmonton wasn't considered a "slump-busting" team this season.

 

[McTedi]

Well maybe we are agreeing then.

This team has historically been mentally frail. It's a loser attitude and they will never be able to win consistently until they lose it. It's what Chia has been talking about... the futility that creeps in if you lack a champion's resolve.

Is a goalie more likely to influence team morale than any other player?... yeah... most of us reluctantly learn to deal with that. Our job is 1) not make any mistakes, and 2) bail you out from your mistakes and 3) deal with the double-standard that you will not be held accountable to your mistakes since we are there to hide them.

I think my point is that blaming the goalie for a mental error like that is just so ironic... if the Oilers team had 50% of the mental fortitude and attention to detail as even a replacement level, average NHL goalie... then we'd be winning 67% of our games given our talent level.

Talbot is better than that... most nights he's one of our better players and sets the stage for the rest of the team to realize that there is a game being played. We rely on him that way in most 1st periods. He deserves better than the attitudes being thrown around in this thread... the idea that it was OK for the team to fold on him after a bad goal, simply because it was THAT bad. That implies a serious lack of leadership on this team.

Goalies stop shots.

Since most of the goals come from in front of the net in the High scoring chance area were they go in 8.5 to 30% of the time.
.915 to .700 save %

you might want the best in the game.

But price is not available.

So we get one of the top 8 in all siutations
and
#2 in Even and Pk situation.

His PP save% is one of the lowest in the league for some reason.
Tmac you might want to watch Nelson's PP video!

------------------------------------------------

People view things differently is just saying they Guess!
you are making up Stuff.

You stating normal goaltending is a lie.

Normal goal tending is .7200 save % for PP hsc shots.
Normal goaltending is .7900 for even HSC shots.

Normal goaltending for open hole shots is .5500


I looked at shot chart results.
Video of shots
Video of shots in elevation.
that would be data and facts.
Reality!

to come up with a indicated system.

The feed back from the coaching community I meet in Salmon arm Hockey fest was an Ego rush!

I appreciate the stats but I find your posts difficult to read and ascertain who you talking about most of the time. Sorry man

 

[McClelland]

Goalies stop shots.

Since most of the goals come from in front of the net in the High scoring chance area were they go in 8.5 to 30% of the time.
.915 to .700 save %

you might want the best in the game.

But price is not available.

So we get one of the top 8 in all siutations
and
#2 in Even and Pk situation.

His PP save% is one of the lowest in the league for some reason.
Tmac you might want to watch Nelson's PP video!

------------------------------------------------

People view things differently is just saying they Guess!
you are making up Stuff.

You stating normal goaltending is a lie.

Normal goal tending is .7200 save % for PP hsc shots.
Normal goaltending is .7900 for even HSC shots.

Normal goaltending for open hole shots is .5500


I looked at shot chart results.
Video of shots
Video of shots in elevation.
that would be data and facts.
Reality!

to come up with a indicated system.

The feed back from the coaching community I meet in Salmon arm Hockey fest was an Ego rush!

I spoked about last night!!! Talbot has 1 season as a starter. Price had looked like a god in the stats if playing Talbots games last season and almost every real no 1 goalie had better theirs.

So if i understand you right, if the 7 before Talbot in your charts was taken in a let say redraft, and it was your turn, then you had chosen Talbot.

 

[Renly Baratheon]

I'm still confident the team will be competitive this year but wowsers what a rude wake-up call.

 

[Mr Positive]

at least it seems there is some chaos in the rest of the division. We will likely continue to be inconsistent, but Anaheim is missing Lindholm, LA missing Quick, and Calgary looks just as lost as we do for now, if not more.

So, we appear to have some cushion for the team to find a way to win and get some consistency. I have faith Talbot will be great for us too.

 

[rboomercat90]

Well, I prefaced in my comment earlier today that historically this is exactly the nature of game this club would take lightly and not be prepared for. Its one game AND its indicative of not much changing with attitude. 2 wins against the lowly flames and its easy street..

This club gets so ahead of itself so easily. Its so typical of the Oilers.

Wonder what Klefbom is saying right now about showing up for big games.

In all fairness to Klefbom, Buffalo isn't one of the better teams.