Systems versus raw talent

[Gally11]

Over the last few years I've become a pretty big Carolina Panthers fan, to the point I'm currently in a hotel room in San Fran waiting for them to play on Sunday. One thing that's very clear about the direction of this team is they encourage their players to be themselves and they've let their high end prospects mature and develop into their own personalities, and even let them grow outside of what is considered their "roles" and built their systems and team around their core player and personalities.

Obviously this strategy was something that took patience and risk and it's working this year... But I'm wondering how behind the 8-ball we are as an organization by trying to make our high end prospects and talent to mold into what we expect them to be as opposed to what they think hockey is. Meaning we force **** systems down their throat to the point we take all the fun out of it for them and we take their instincts away that made them great

Instead of taking advantage of players and people that live in that box we've created a box we can't get out of. We could have had the Cam Newton of the NHL in Subban if we unleashed him for a few years and let him recreate the mold of what the league considers to be expected in his role. But instead we had a coach tell him every time he was wrong instead of every time he was right. It just drives me crazy how we live and die by a language instead of innovation and creativity, and it's going to be the idealogy we die by. I know we talk about coaching management etc in some other threads but I want this one to be about how we try to control personality and how it's affected us and the NHL as a whole the last few years and if you agree that we completely missed the boat on this one.

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[HBDay]

Listen the NHL has been sucking the life out of the game for awhile now. They have intentionally created parity to the point where teams are playing so rigid and so mistake free that the excitement is virtually gone.

The salary cap has been tough on us as far as acquiring raw talent.

- We can't get them to come here because the money we offer with taxes etc. doesn't equate to the money offered in most states.

- You can't draft raw talent that would have an immediate impact without being one of the worst teams in the league for a season.

The cycle continues. I wish someone would atleast give a try to starting to a new professional league in this country. Even if it fails it would be cool to see. Remember the XFL... ha ha ha.

 

[elsubz]

This is how far behind we are




and this:
https://streamable.com/uyjm

Just noticed the smirk on Subban at the end of the streamable one^^^ Must be telling himself how useless the coach is.

 

[DAChampion]

The NHL undermines its stars.

It's not just a Habs problem.

 

[DAChampion]

Part of the above is that the NHL encourages "blue collar" goonery, so nearly every great talented player of recent history has had his career undermined by injuries.

The expansion of goalie equipment probably undermines offensive systems.

We won't see any offensive records broken any time soon.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I like burkes idea to widen ice surface. Quite frankly it would open things up and eliminate the tight grind game NHL is becoming.

 

[MasterDecoy]

I like burkes idea to widen ice surface. Quite frankly it would open things up and eliminate the tight grind game NHL is becoming.

im all for adding about a foot each side, but not too much. counter-intuitively enough, international ice surface as far slower play

 

[HankyZetts]

I hear what you are trying to say, but Carolina has a system in place first and foremost. That attacking 4-3 is a staple for a few teams in the league. They have a way they want to play, and they draft players accordingly. They happen to have drafted extremely well in the last few years and it shows on the field.

Now, how they call plays and apply that system, is certainly personnel dependent. They put players in situations to succeed based on their talents. That is a testament to how good that coaching staff is. A lot like Quenneville; we're gonna coach you hard, you will do your job in all facets, no shortcuts or you won't play, BUT we are going to put you in positions to best display your unique talent and abilities. And then it's perpetual right? That breeds something in a team that is hard to define but impossible not to notice.

Habs are in a sad state. No eye for talent at the pro level, it seems. Timmins is giving them talent, but Lefebvre, Therrien and Bergy apparently have no idea what to do with it.

Bergevin the loser, would've traded Seguin, both Kane's, Karlsson, Ovechkin, Yakupov, etc. because of their "character's" instead of firing "his guy".

#FreeHudon #FreeReway

 

[OldCraig71]

I agree with everything said here, I find it difficult to watch any NHL game and I have been this way for the last 4-5 years. It is so structured and watered down that a grinder is now a valued part of most rosters and making multi million dollar amounts to score 5 goals and have no talent. I wish the game was more wide open with mistakes and odd man rushes much like it was in the 80s when the high flying Oilers ruled the league . That was a more entertaining time for the game. There is also no protection for star players in our game, watch McDavid get abused by a scrub player and have no one respond. In Gretzky's day there would be hell to pay if he was even touched and that is what gave him the ability to make great plays and today's star players have nowhere near that type of freedom.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Part of the above is that the NHL encourages "blue collar" goonery, so nearly every great talented player of recent history has had his career undermined by injuries.

The expansion of goalie equipment probably undermines offensive systems.

We won't see any offensive records broken any time soon.

It has NOTHING to do with goalie equipment size. This fallacy is ridiculous, the last time we shrunk equipment, save percentage went UP and GAA went DOWN.

If games were low scoring and a high percentage of scoring chances were being created, you'd have an argument, but the truth is, there's low scoring and low amount of scoring chances. Its the ice surface, it's the coaching, its the risk-adverse systems and it is officiating.

Go to the hybrid style rinks.
Promote and give preferential treatment to teams like Dallas, Pittsburgh, Edmonton and Chicago who play up tempo and offensively creative ways.
Increase penalties for obstruction, interference and tripping.
Make it a penalty to leave your feet to block and a shot, or slide to block a pass. Not only will that reduce the amount of injuries to star players force to block shots, it will also increase the amount of chances.

 

[sandviper]

On the topic of personalities, I was listening to Leafs Lunch and they were discussing how it would be great to let players cut loose and be themselves. A star player should not be a regional star but a national or international one. They mentioned some backlash Subban gets, but see no issue if on-ice performance holds up. On that note, they really should make the TSN 690 shows available for podcast.

 

[Habsrule]

Funny because I was thinking about this just the other day.

If I were a coach I would want to implement a really structured defensive system as you need that in today's NHL. As for offense especially five on five I would want the players to create on their own. If players can create then maybe they will score more goals. Scoring goals and just having the ability to create offense would be more fun. Having more fun leads to trying harder to satisfy the coach for more playing time. Hockey has got to be more fun for NHL players.

 

[habalifeok]

First of all expansion has created talent dilution.
Secondly goaltending equipment has increased in size since the 80s.
Thirdly goaltending style has changed from the standup style to butterfly syle.
Then overall player size has increased effectively making the ice surface seem smaller.
With talent dilution and an evening out or parity in teams most coaches employ a defensive system to try and win the close games.
The salary cap has created even more parity, making it more important again for coaches to employ strategies to win close games.

 

[Gally11]

I hear what you are trying to say, but Carolina has a system in place first and foremost. That attacking 4-3 is a staple for a few teams in the league. They have a way they want to play, and they draft players accordingly. They happen to have drafted extremely well in the last few years and it shows on the field.

Now, how they call plays and apply that system, is certainly personnel dependent. They put players in situations to succeed based on their talents. That is a testament to how good that coaching staff is. A lot like Quenneville; we're gonna coach you hard, you will do your job in all facets, no shortcuts or you won't play, BUT we are going to put you in positions to best display your unique talent and abilities. And then it's perpetual right? That breeds something in a team that is hard to define but impossible not to notice.

Habs are in a sad state. No eye for talent at the pro level, it seems. Timmins is giving them talent, but Lefebvre, Therrien and Bergy apparently have no idea what to do with it.

Bergevin the loser, would've traded Seguin, both Kane's, Karlsson, Ovechkin, Yakupov, etc. because of their "character's" instead of firing "his guy".

#FreeHudon #FreeReway

Yeah I agree, that makes more sense than what I was trying to say. Either way they recognized the talent they had and built around it instead of the trying to force a certain system on their players. It's sad to watch and even when they're winning I think most of us agree it's still sad to see what they're doing to these players.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Systems are deployed by teams who don't have talent to stifle the ones that do. Plain and simple.

Most talented teams in NHL history had a system. It was score more goals than you allow. Go out and have fun = Watch cups roll in.

 

[groovejuice]

I like burkes idea to widen ice surface. Quite frankly it would open things up and eliminate the tight grind game NHL is becoming.

I've been pushing this for years. Very few arenas have the infrastructure to widen the rinks without it being prohibitive in costs, though. Not to mention lost revenues from fewer seats.

 

[Brainiac]

Bergevin and Therrien got a little mixed up.

We have a raw system and no talent.