Supreme court rules for college athletes

[KevFu]

except the G-league is honest . It existance is about developing NBA players . These are educational institutions who existance is and should be higher education not running quasi pro sport teams.

That's just a radio show talking point to sound good, and sound smart, but doesn't actually address anything of substance.

If the PROBLEM with the NCAA is that its members have become greedy-quasi professional teams instead of following the true mission of what college sports is supposed to be... why is the solution to just make them a full professional sports league?

What does that accomplish?

 

[KevFu]

then all schools should elimante there athletic departments and make them student run club teams.

Another good radio show talking point that sounds smart. But it's really very dumb because that is nothing more than a reset button back to the early 1900s that will never ever be pressed.

Game that out: Everyone has club teams and no one has athletics departments. You have actual students running teams, totally disorganized. What do they need to operate? Uniforms, and travel expenses. So what do they do? Sell tickets to their games!

And you have family and friends who'd like to watch their kids. And ESPN, CBS and Fox are willing to let their kids watch those games to fill air time and sell ads.

And you have "Wait a minute, your best player... does he actually GO to that school, or is he a ringer?" So now the competitions need better organizational structure and league officials to make sure it's on the level. And why don't we just put a responsible adult in charge of these programs? And "let's get the 8 of us nearby schools to just make a league of all our teams."

That's EXACTLY how we got TO HERE from the last 120 years.

 

[KevFu]

The downfall of college sports was the 1984 Supreme Court case of Oklahoma vs NCAA. The NCAA owned all the TV rights to college sports and Oklahoma and others sued them and won.

What happened after that was Darwinist Capitalism at the conference level: Schools pooled their TV rights into their conference to sell to TV.

In an effort to get more money from TV, conferences added schools for better TV markets and to have 12 teams so they could sell a football championship game to TV.

You went from having 20 conferences that were regionally based and each had good teams and every sport was wide open.... To a consolidation of power in the "Power 5" and then a few other decent conferences, and then 18 conferences who really just play, lose non-conference games, send a team to the NCAA tournament and lose.

But those 18 conferences are where the actual mission of college athletics is real and exists, and all the problems of the NCAA really only exist in the Power 5 and the group of other decent conferences where irresponsible people are hell bent on trying to keep up with the Power 5.


And that's why the PERCEPTION of college sports is a "quasi professional sports league." If the NCAA WON that case in 1984, and owned all the TV rights and had equal TV revenue sharing among all its members..

- You wouldn't have a Power 5 acting like a pro sports league, expanding for TV dollars; because there'd be no reason to change conference affiliations for money. You'd still have 20 relatively balanced conferences and 10 that had some bad teams. Actually, you'd probably have like 48 conferences because making SMALLER conferences would be BETTER financially.

- The coaches wouldn't be acting like scumbags because the ACCESS to the NCAA Tournaments and prestigious events would be far easier for everyone as there'd be more parity. You wouldn't have shady recruiting tactics and exploiting kids because the KIDS would have 200 options of good teams to play on instead of 65.


The solution isn't to formally make The Power 5 into a pro sports league. The solution is pass rules that prioritize the actual mission of college athletics and DESTROY THE CONCEPT OF A POWER FIVE.

Banning CONFERENCES and having all team schedules computer generated by the NCAA would solve far far far more things in college sports than paying the players.

 

[joelef]

Another good radio show talking point that sounds smart. But it's really very dumb because that is nothing more than a reset button back to the early 1900s that will never ever be pressed.

Game that out: Everyone has club teams and no one has athletics departments. You have actual students running teams, totally disorganized. What do they need to operate? Uniforms, and travel expenses. So what do they do? Sell tickets to their games!

And you have family and friends who'd like to watch their kids. And ESPN, CBS and Fox are willing to let their kids watch those games to fill air time and sell ads.

And you have "Wait a minute, your best player... does he actually GO to that school, or is he a ringer?" So now the competitions need better organizational structure and league officials to make sure it's on the level. And why don't we just put a responsible adult in charge of these programs? And "let's get the 8 of us nearby schools to just make a league of all our teams."

That's EXACTLY how we got TO HERE from the last 120 years.

The ACHA , NCBA, NCVA, and the thusands of other club sport governing bodies seem to know how to handle it.

 

[joelef]

That's just a radio show talking point to sound good, and sound smart, but doesn't actually address anything of substance.

If the PROBLEM with the NCAA is that its members have become greedy-quasi professional teams instead of following the true mission of what college sports is supposed to be... why is the solution to just make them a full professional sports league?

What does that accomplish?

it dosent i agree but it was already looking like a pro lesague with multi million dollar for coaches, training facilities that are better then many pro teams reserve for a few atheltes, sponsership galore on bowl games, billion dollar tv deals, million dollar venues for NON_REVENUE sports . The NCAA didnt have a problem with all that;

 

[golfortennis]

That's just a radio show talking point to sound good, and sound smart, but doesn't actually address anything of substance.

If the PROBLEM with the NCAA is that its members have become greedy-quasi professional teams instead of following the true mission of what college sports is supposed to be... why is the solution to just make them a full professional sports league?

What does that accomplish?

Why does a guy who can get to the quarterback need to go through the charade of a calculus class? The G league is honest. Look at Ben Simmons. What on earth did him spending time at LSU do for anyone? He missed out on a year of getting paid an NBA salary, he made a joke of any academics that are supposed to be the "mission of college sports," and LSU got a disappointing season, and I'm pretty sure the coach got fired.

The solution is make it so the professional leagues take in the guys who are wanting to play professionally, and get rid of this interim step. Dexter Manley(among others) made a complete mockery of an educational institution by remaining eligible all four years. There are guys who don't belong in college, and that is ok.

The only thing I can really say that is positive having sports tied to schools the way they are is that rather than having the mish mash of Olympic development programs other countries have, the NCAA is the US' development system in a lot of ways. But that's it.

 

[joelef]

The downfall of college sports was the 1984 Supreme Court case of Oklahoma vs NCAA. The NCAA owned all the TV rights to college sports and Oklahoma and others sued them and won.

What happened after that was Darwinist Capitalism at the conference level: Schools pooled their TV rights into their conference to sell to TV.

In an effort to get more money from TV, conferences added schools for better TV markets and to have 12 teams so they could sell a football championship game to TV.

You went from having 20 conferences that were regionally based and each had good teams and every sport was wide open.... To a consolidation of power in the "Power 5" and then a few other decent conferences, and then 18 conferences who really just play, lose non-conference games, send a team to the NCAA tournament and lose.

But those 18 conferences are where the actual mission of college athletics is real and exists, and all the problems of the NCAA really only exist in the Power 5 and the group of other decent conferences where irresponsible people are hell bent on trying to keep up with the Power 5.


And that's why the PERCEPTION of college sports is a "quasi professional sports league." If the NCAA WON that case in 1984, and owned all the TV rights and had equal TV revenue sharing among all its members..

- You wouldn't have a Power 5 acting like a pro sports league, expanding for TV dollars; because there'd be no reason to change conference affiliations for money. You'd still have 20 relatively balanced conferences and 10 that had some bad teams. Actually, you'd probably have like 48 conferences because making SMALLER conferences would be BETTER financially.

- The coaches wouldn't be acting like scumbags because the ACCESS to the NCAA Tournaments and prestigious events would be far easier for everyone as there'd be more parity. You wouldn't have shady recruiting tactics and exploiting kids because the KIDS would have 200 options of good teams to play on instead of 65.


The solution isn't to formally make The Power 5 into a pro sports league. The solution is pass rules that prioritize the actual mission of college athletics and DESTROY THE CONCEPT OF A POWER FIVE.

Banning CONFERENCES and having all team schedules computer generated by the NCAA would solve far far far more things in college sports than paying the players.

No the bigger thing would be the NFL stop being cheapskates and start there own minor league system and the usopc embracing the european model.

 

[joelef]

Why does a guy who can get to the quarterback need to go through the charade of a calculus class? The G league is honest. Look at Ben Simmons. What on earth did him spending time at LSU do for anyone? He missed out on a year of getting paid an NBA salary, he made a joke of any academics that are supposed to be the "mission of college sports," and LSU got a disappointing season, and I'm pretty sure the coach got fired.

The solution is make it so the professional leagues take in the guys who are wanting to play professionally, and get rid of this interim step. Dexter Manley(among others) made a complete mockery of an educational institution by remaining eligible all four years. There are guys who don't belong in college, and that is ok.

The only thing I can really say that is positive having sports tied to schools the way they are is that rather than having the mish mash of Olympic development programs other countries have, the NCAA is the US' development system in a lot of ways. But that's it.[/QUOTE]
even that is not postitive . Only half of the olympics sport are ncaa sports anyways.

 

[KevFu]

it dosent i agree but it was already looking like a pro lesague with multi million dollar for coaches, training facilities that are better then many pro teams reserve for a few atheltes, sponsership galore on bowl games, billion dollar tv deals, million dollar venues for NON_REVENUE sports . The NCAA didnt have a problem with all that;

You're talking about the 65 Power 5 programs. Look at facility pictures and coaches salaries of the OTHER 278 Division I schools who don't have that.

Those 65 schools have facilities like that, salaries like that BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE TV MONEY and as NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATIONS the revenue HAS to be reinvested towards things that bring in new recruits.

Which is actually no different than the college itself. They fundraise and build stuff and advertise to bring in more applications so they can be more selective, so they can raise their tuition and increase their endowment... so they can build stuff and advertise to bring in more applications so they can be more selective, so they can raise their tuition and increase their endowment...

 

[joelef]

You're talking about the 65 Power 5 programs. Look at facility pictures and coaches salaries of the OTHER 278 Division I schools who don't have that.

Those 65 schools have facilities like that, salaries like that BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE TV MONEY and as NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATIONS the revenue HAS to be reinvested towards things that bring in new recruits.

Which is actually no different than the college itself. They fundraise and build stuff and advertise to bring in more applications so they can be more selective, so they can raise their tuition and increase their endowment... so they can build stuff and advertise to bring in more applications so they can be more selective, so they can raise their tuition and increase their endowment...

and all that stuff VIOLATES the "mission of college sports,"

 

[joelef]

You're talking about the 65 Power 5 programs. Look at facility pictures and coaches salaries of the OTHER 278 Division I schools who don't have that.

Those 65 schools have facilities like that, salaries like that BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE TV MONEY and as NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATIONS the revenue HAS to be reinvested towards things that bring in new recruits.

Which is actually no different than the college itself. They fundraise and build stuff and advertise to bring in more applications so they can be more selective, so they can raise their tuition and increase their endowment... so they can build stuff and advertise to bring in more applications so they can be more selective, so they can raise their tuition and increase their endowment...

And thats why so many students are in debt and refuse to take up vocational trades

 

[PCSPounder]

except the G-league is honest . It existance is about developing NBA players . These are educational institutions who existance is and should be higher education not running quasi pro sport teams.

Joelef is generally right… although youth development is perennially the shady side of any development system. I’ve got soccer stories and I’m only hesitant to use them because time is holy.

I know a little something about the Portland Winterhawks, so just assume I reignited the old major junior vs college debate.

I will respect college athletics because it’s kind of where America has been landing, but this soccer fan has been watching how the American youth system has made a mess of itself, yet given a lot of people second thoughts about the whole college system. It’s not going away quietly, but it is going to take much harder hits than it already has.

 

[KevFu]

He missed out on a year of getting paid an NBA salary

The solution is make it so the professional leagues take in the guys who are wanting to play professionally

There are guys who don't belong in college, and that is ok.

No the bigger thing would be the NFL stop being cheapskates and start there own minor league system and the usopc embracing the european model.

First off, I hope everyone has a happy Canada Day, and I love Canada and Canadians and hate any type of ethnocentric or nationalist non-sense. But it is so hard to talk about this topic with Canadians, or Europeans, or anywhere else, because no one else already HAS the college athletics system in place, and think we can just tear down one structure and build a totally new one when literally no one has the power to do so:

- The NCAA CANNOT FORCE THE NBA TO CHANGE ITS DRAFT RULES.
Does Ben Simmons BELONG in college? No.
Can Ben Simmons SKIP COLLEGE and play Pro right away before he's draft eligible? Yes. Absolutely.
Should NCAA Schools NOT RECRUIT guys like that because they have no place in college athletics? Sure, but there's no way to legislate that and coaches aren't going to skip an elite recruit because they might not lose them.

- The NCAA CANNOT FORCE THE NFL TO CHANGE ITS DRAFT RULES, OR CREATE A MINOR LEAGUE.

When every talks about paying athletes, NO ONE talks about the value of college BASEBALL players or college HOCKEY players. Because MLB and NHL have minor leagues, and Draft Rules that aren't completely stupid.

And of course, Ben Simmons and Dexter Manley and all the other examples of guys who don't belong in college sports -- they all go to the Power 5 schools! That's a problem that exists BECAUSE of the pro leagues, not the NCAA, and in the POWER FIVE
because the Power 5 (or schools outside it who are close to getting in) are the ones doing whatever it takes to win because the stakes are so big for them, not in the "THE NCAA" as a whole.

 

[KevFu]

and all that stuff VIOLATES the "mission of college sports,"

Yeah, no crap. EVERYONE KNOWS IT'S BAD. But "Being honest" and changing the mission statement is not a solution.

You're NOT FIXING anything by paying players, you're just formalizing the corruption and greed of Power Five and telling the 80% of Division I that doesn't have those problems that they sucked too much at Darwinist Capitalism to play sports at the highest level.

That's called "Giving Up" not "Fixing."

 

[joelef]

Yeah, no crap. EVERYONE KNOWS IT'S BAD. But "Being honest" and changing the mission statement is not a solution.

You're NOT FIXING anything by paying players, you're just formalizing the corruption and greed of Power Five and telling the 80% of Division I that doesn't have those problems that they sucked too much at Darwinist Capitalism to play sports at the highest level.

That's called "Giving Up" not "Fixing."

i did have a solution but you called it a "radio talking point"

 

[KevFu]

Joelef is generally right… although youth development is perennially the shady side of any development system. I’ve got soccer stories and I’m only hesitant to use them because time is holy.

I know a little something about the Portland Winterhawks, so just assume I reignited the old major junior vs college debate.

I will respect college athletics because it’s kind of where America has been landing, but this soccer fan has been watching how the American youth system has made a mess of itself, yet given a lot of people second thoughts about the whole college system. It’s not going away quietly, but it is going to take much harder hits than it already has.

It's easy to be "generally right" when you're talking about idealistic mission statements and ignoring any discussion of HOW TO REFORM a massive structure deeply entrenched into STATES BUDGETS.

I can sound incredibly smart about how bad and stupid the system of American Politics is, but in a conversation about HOW TO FIX IT, I have to bring something more to the table than just "burn it to the ground."


I'm largely ignorant of the details of Junior Hockey compensation, but I'm guessing the same protections the NCAA just lost are what junior hockey has. They're getting room and board and travel expenses and a stipend, they're not making minimum wage or more, are they? So if you're in a place where your junior hockey team is beloved and you have great host families, and coaches and administrators with integrity and you're an organization your small community is proud of for doing things the right way.... do you want it to be COMPLETELY BLOWN UP?

 

[KevFu]

i did have a solution but you called it a "radio talking point"

You most certainly did not have a solution.

You said "Eliminate athletics departments and make them student-run club sports." Which is ridiculous. College sports are advertising for the school where instead of having to BUY publicity, there's massive sports networks throwing money at them to put them on TV.

You might as well suggest the NHL eliminate tickets and let people into the arena for a hug.

 

[joelef]

You most certainly did not have a solution.

You said "Eliminate athletics departments and make them student-run club sports." Which is ridiculous. College sports are advertising for the school where instead of having to BUY publicity, there's massive sports networks throwing money at them to put them on TV.

You might as well suggest the NHL eliminate tickets and let people into the arena for a hug.

the NHL is a private run buisness who buiness is to make money.... the ncaa are educational institutions who preach amatuerism and purity.

 

[joelef]

You most certainly did not have a solution.

You said "Eliminate athletics departments and make them student-run club sports." Which is ridiculous. College sports are advertising for the school where instead of having to BUY publicity, there's massive sports networks throwing money at them to put them on TV.

You might as well suggest the NHL eliminate tickets and let people into the arena for a hug.

buying publicity is MUCH cheaper thne running a sports program. Akron isnt going deep into debt over buying publicity.

 

[joelef]

You most certainly did not have a solution.

You said "Eliminate athletics departments and make them student-run club sports." Which is ridiculous. College sports are advertising for the school where instead of having to BUY publicity, there's massive sports networks throwing money at them to put them on TV.

You might as well suggest the NHL eliminate tickets and let people into the arena for a hug.

and this myth is why the P5 continue to be out of control in the first place. Your proving my point. The NCAA and many college sport backers want there cake and eat it to. You cant use it a "advertizing" tool and still have the "purity" of college athletics. That why NIL exist in the first place.

 

[PCSPounder]

“I know I’m wasting half my advertising budget. I just don’t know which half.”

That is a quote that’s pretty much standard business school instruction.

Kev, you (and not only you) way overrate athletics as “gateway to the school.” Most students are too busy paying for their school (aka working) to either go to games or to take begged increases in fees to school athletics programs seriously.

 

[PCSPounder]

Junior Hockey… BTW, their incentive package tends to include an offer for college education after playing, a year for each year on the roster. Part of the lawsuit issue was clubs encouraging players to attend pro tryouts… which negates their ability to get the scholarship.

Most of the world has an in-house youth development program and something of a reserve program. Not just soccer. Instead of minor leagues, Japanese baseball has reserve teams.

 

[PCSPounder]

BTW… smaller school football is going to die of rising insurance costs. The rest will die of overprofessionalism. Sort of.

There’s another way. Many Mexican pro clubs (and some South American clubs) are named for schools by alumni who started the teams. Including some big clubs. No need to send players to school (meanwhile, halfway around the world, there’s a Norwegian pro team that requires players to attend one class of their choosing each term while playing). So there’s plenty of possibilities.

 

[KevFu]

the NHL is a private run buisness who buiness is to make money.... the ncaa are educational institutions who preach amatuerism and purity.

Yeah, and Darwanist capitalism entered the NCAA because they LOST a Supreme Court case and things got worse. Now 40 years later, they lose another Supreme Court case and things are going to go to hell.

The reason behind every NCAA rule is not to shackle student athletes, because no one expected college athletes to be worth anything in terms of endorsements; the rules were set to keep colleges from buying recruits.

 

[KevFu]

buying publicity is MUCH cheaper thne running a sports program. Akron isnt going deep into debt over buying publicity.

Incorrect.

The average TV ad costs $115,000 for a 30-second commercial on a national network.

Akron's athletics budget is $34.9 million. Which is 303.478 30-second commercials, aka 151.7 minutes of National TV time.

Their football team had three games on national TV (9 hours), their men's basketball team five (10 hours). Buying 19 hours worth of ads would cost about $262 million.