Steven Stamkos vs Jonathan Toews: who ranks higher all time right now?

[LightningStorm]

As of the 2022 offseason, which center do you rank higher all time? In several ways, they are opposites of one another. Stamkos has clearly been the better scorer, while Toews definitely the better 2 way player. Toews's peak/prime coincided with the team around him, while Stamkos's supporting cast got better after he started having injury problems. Basically, Toews's best years were while his team was winning cups, while Stamkos had his before his team was contenders.

Peak wise, Stamkos from 2010-2013 was better than Toews ever was. Prime Toews from 2008-2017 I'd give the edge over Stamkos for extended prime, especially factoring in the playoffs. Longevity wise I give Stamkos the edge with his 2018 revival, though one could instead count that more as a 2nd prime.

Who do you currently rank higher all time between Stamkos and Toews, as of the 2022 offseason?

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[Siludin]

Stamkos just had his best season in terms of point totals and he went to the SCF.

 

[JungleBeat]

Stamkos. Pretty easy.

 

[Cape]

So, Stamkos now NHL Top 100 player ever and intangibles Toews not?

 

[LightningStorm]

Stamkos. Pretty easy.

So, Stamkos now NHL Top 100 player ever and intangibles Toews not?

I expected Stammer to win this poll, but I'm genuinely surprised at how lopsided it is. If this were held 5 years ago, Toews would've won comfortably, albeit not this lopsided. And 2017 was roughly a decade into their careers, and roughly 2/3 of their career up until now. This isn't even factoring Toews being selected in the 100 greatest players, as most on this forum considered it a joke.

Of course it makes sense how Stamkos has passed him in the 5 ensuing years. Having a career revival and playing his best hockey post 2013 leg injury, winning 2 cups (I hate using cups to measure players, but I know the reality of many doing it), as well as the decline in Toews's play, plus the Beach scandal causing his leadership/intangibles reputation to take a hit. So I could see how the pendulum swung from one to another these 5 years, though this much has genuinely surprised me, even if Toews wasn't the darling on HFBoards that he was in the Canadian media.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, because Toews is a meme at this point and Stamkos has been the definition of shitty injury luck, but I like Toews’ career more. Dude was a warrior early on in the playoffs. Never liked Stamkos’ playoff game. Just my opinion, no interest in discussing or debating it.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Stamkos by a country mile.

 

[Johnny Tomala]

Stamkos, simply better player. Enough with this intangibles myth. Toews was never at his peak close to Stamkos at his peak.

 

[Regal]

I would still take Toews over his best 5-6 years, but I think Stamkos has the better career, and that’s despite getting hurt right when he looked at his best. I think it’s hard to say Toews was a better player all time at this point.

 

[LightningStorm]

Another question, in light of Stamkos overwhelmingly winning this poll. is around what season do you think he passed Toews?

 

[HFpapi]

Honestly I take Toews if I can draft either one from the start of their careers.

The pendulum has swung way too far in the opposite direction against Toews. To give a snapshot in time, Stamkos didn’t even make Team Canada in 2010 in the midst of his absolute peak whereas Toews was Canada’s best player and forward of the tournament.

Something about Stamkos game despite the high point totals just feels like empty calories. His reputation is bolstered by winning two cups where he wasn’t even top 5 most important players on his team.

Toews is the opposite. At his best he was one of the most complete players in the game and brought so much more value to the ice than his numbers suggest.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Stamkos from 2010-2013 was better than Toews ever was.

I'll say it, no he wasn't. Toews was a possession and shutdown force, a 70+ point player, and a perennial Selke candidate. Stamkos was a goal scoring and point producing machine for sure but I would rather have Toews as the Hawks 1C in those years than Stamkos easily.

 

[Umingmak]

Stamkos. He’s still in his prime now, while Toews’ prime was quite short.

 

[Nihiliste]

Toews has become underrated at this point. Ask me when starting a team, I take 09-15 Toews over any version of Stamkos, who still isn’t a particularly good playoff performer

 

[Nihiliste]

I’m blown away by these poll results. Stamkos has essentially been a complementary player for these great Bolts squads. They won without him one season and the other they had Point/Cirelli/Gourde down the middle.

Conversely, Toews was an elite play driving and defensive center that won 3 cups with guys like Michael Handzus and a washed up Brad Richards behind him. Better at his peak than Bergeron and Kopitar, both of whom I would also take over Stamkos. No chance in hell that Stamkos shows up to a best on best tournament, steals a starting position on a star studded team Canada, and then proceeds to outshine every other forward in the tournament.

I don’t know what kind of health problems Toews has been dealing with, but if analytics had been as robust and popular as they are now then no one would doubt the value he brought in his prime.

Better than Mackinnon, better than Draisaitl, better than Point (who’s better than Stamkos), comparable to and arguably better than Matthews

 

[Sky04]

I’m blown away by these poll results. Stamkos has essentially been a complementary player for these great Bolts squads. They won without him one season and the other they had Point/Cirelli/Gourde down the middle.

Conversely, Toews was an elite play driving and defensive center that won 3 cups with guys like Michael Handzus and a washed up Brad Richards behind him. Better at his peak than Bergeron and Kopitar, both of whom I would also take over Stamkos. No chance in hell that Stamkos shows up to a best on best tournament, steals a starting position on a star studded team Canada, and then proceeds to outshine every other forward in the tournament.

I don’t know what kind of health problems Toews has been dealing with, but if analytics had been as robust and popular as they are now then no one would doubt the value he brought in his prime.

View attachment 566809

Pretty sure this thread takes into account their entire careers and that easily goes to Stamkos

 

[wetcoast]

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, because Toews is a meme at this point and Stamkos has been the definition of shitty injury luck, but I like Toews’ career more. Dude was a warrior early on in the playoffs. Never liked Stamkos’ playoff game. Just my opinion, no interest in discussing or debating it.

This is how I saw it as well but Stammer was my gut choice and he has simply stayed relevant for much longer and was probably the better pure player at his peak....maybe?

 

[Nihiliste]

Pretty sure this thread takes into account their entire careers and that easily goes to Stamkos

I couldn’t care less how many more years Stamkos has as a great but clearly lesser player when the comprable was one of the best peaks of the cap era that was one of the clear driving forces behind 3 cups. Maybe from a lightning fan point of view an example could be like pitting Stamkos’s whole career against Kucherov’s past few seasons. Though Toews was arguably even more valuable than Kucherov because even though Kuch was much better offensively, Toews was elite defensively and elite at driving play and possession so net impact was arguably slightly higher

Another way to put it, if you took all the centers that have played in the league in the cap era and asked me to pick a player to build a championship team around, Stamkos would be nowhere near the top of my list. I like the guy and he’s had some great accomplishments but that’s just the way I see it.

This is how I saw it as well but Stammer was my gut choice and he has simply stayed relevant for much longer and was probably the better pure player at his peak....maybe?

He wasn’t better in terms of value/WAR, even in his 60 goal season

 

[wetcoast]

I couldn’t care less how many more years Stamkos has as a great but clearly lesser player when the comprable was one of the best peaks of the cap era that was one of the clear driving forces behind 3 cups. Maybe from a lightning fan point of view an example could be like pitting Stamkos’s whole career against Kucherov’s past few seasons. Though Toews was arguably even more valuable than Kucherov because even though Kuch was much better offensively, Toews was elite defensively and elite at driving play and possession so net impact was arguably slightly higher

Another way to put it, if you took all the centers that have played in the league in the cap era and asked me to pick a player to build a championship team around, Stamkos would be nowhere near the top of my list. I like the guy and he’s had some great accomplishments but that’s just the way I see it.



He wasn’t better in terms of value/WAR, even in his 60 goal season

I grew up in Vancouver and first heard the DOA version on soundproof (awesome video show before MTV or MM or TDM)



Stammer just has more staying power and will be seen by most to have the better career and I really like Toews.

 

[bobbyking]

Stamkos looks to be getting his old mojo back . had an amazing playoffs

 

[Regal]

I couldn’t care less how many more years Stamkos has as a great but clearly lesser player when the comprable was one of the best peaks of the cap era that was one of the clear driving forces behind 3 cups. Maybe from a lightning fan point of view an example could be like pitting Stamkos’s whole career against Kucherov’s past few seasons. Though Toews was arguably even more valuable than Kucherov because even though Kuch was much better offensively, Toews was elite defensively and elite at driving play and possession so net impact was arguably slightly higher

Another way to put it, if you took all the centers that have played in the league in the cap era and asked me to pick a player to build a championship team around, Stamkos would be nowhere near the top of my list. I like the guy and he’s had some great accomplishments but that’s just the way I see it.



He wasn’t better in terms of value/WAR, even in his 60 goal season

While I agree with the general idea of Toews’ all around play being better over their best 5-6 years, I do think Stamkos is likely undervalued in terms of a lot of “advanced” stats, because his finishing ability made his lack of possession less important offensively. Stamkos’ on ice goals for is consistently much higher than his expected numbers.

 

[Sky04]

I couldn’t care less how many more years Stamkos has as a great but clearly lesser player when the comprable was one of the best peaks of the cap era that was one of the clear driving forces behind 3 cups. Maybe from a lightning fan point of view an example could be like pitting Stamkos’s whole career against Kucherov’s past few seasons. Though Toews was arguably even more valuable than Kucherov because even though Kuch was much better offensively, Toews was elite defensively and elite at driving play and possession so net impact was arguably slightly higher

Another way to put it, if you took all the centers that have played in the league in the cap era and asked me to pick a player to build a championship team around, Stamkos would be nowhere near the top of my list. I like the guy and he’s had some great accomplishments but that’s just the way I see it.



He wasn’t better in terms of value/WAR, even in his 60 goal season

That's fine, I also view Toews a major anchor to his team in recent years and one of the reasons Chicago has fallen off a cliff. I also see that Kane/Keith were the bigger driving forces between the cups.

 

[Rengorlex]

I’m blown away by these poll results. Stamkos has essentially been a complementary player for these great Bolts squads. They won without him one season and the other they had Point/Cirelli/Gourde down the middle.

Conversely, Toews was an elite play driving and defensive center that won 3 cups with guys like Michael Handzus and a washed up Brad Richards behind him. Better at his peak than Bergeron and Kopitar, both of whom I would also take over Stamkos. No chance in hell that Stamkos shows up to a best on best tournament, steals a starting position on a star studded team Canada, and then proceeds to outshine every other forward in the tournament.

I don’t know what kind of health problems Toews has been dealing with, but if analytics had been as robust and popular as they are now then no one would doubt the value he brought in his prime.

View attachment 566809

Better than Mackinnon, better than Draisaitl, better than Point (who’s better than Stamkos), comparable to and arguably better than Matthews

Stamkos actually led the league over that timeframe by that WAR model, due to how big of an outlier his shooting was at that time. Now I personally think that model by design overrates shooters that play with elite playmakers and Stamkos obviously wasn't able to bring his A-game to the playoffs at any point.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Honestly I take Toews if I can draft either one from the start of their careers.

The pendulum has swung way too far in the opposite direction against Toews. To give a snapshot in time, Stamkos didn’t even make Team Canada in 2010 in the midst of his absolute peak whereas Toews was Canada’s best player and forward of the tournament.

Something about Stamkos game despite the high point totals just feels like empty calories. His reputation is bolstered by winning two cups where he wasn’t even top 5 most important players on his team.

Toews is the opposite. At his best he was one of the most complete players in the game and brought so much more value to the ice than his numbers suggest.

That wasn't peak Stamkos. But either way, it was only his 2nd season in the league and he turned 20 basically when the Olympics started. Proves nothing.

I'll say it, no he wasn't. Toews was a possession and shutdown force, a 70+ point player, and a perennial Selke candidate. Stamkos was a goal scoring and point producing machine for sure but I would rather have Toews as the Hawks 1C in those years than Stamkos easily.

Toews has hit 70+ pts 2x in his career. He's not a 70pt player, more like a 60pt player.

I’m blown away by these poll results. Stamkos has essentially been a complementary player for these great Bolts squads. They won without him one season and the other they had Point/Cirelli/Gourde down the middle.

Conversely, Toews was an elite play driving and defensive center that won 3 cups with guys like Michael Handzus and a washed up Brad Richards behind him. Better at his peak than Bergeron and Kopitar, both of whom I would also take over Stamkos. No chance in hell that Stamkos shows up to a best on best tournament, steals a starting position on a star studded team Canada, and then proceeds to outshine every other forward in the tournament.

I don’t know what kind of health problems Toews has been dealing with, but if analytics had been as robust and popular as they are now then no one would doubt the value he brought in his prime.

View attachment 566809

Better than Mackinnon, better than Draisaitl, better than Point (who’s better than Stamkos), comparable to and arguably better than Matthews

LMAOOOO yeah a guy who has never been a 1st AST, never been nominated for the hart or lindsay is better than guys who have swept the awards while putting up 30+ more pts than him. Peak Toews was a 60pt player. Matthews just put up 60 goals. Thanks for the laugh.

 

[Nihiliste]

LMAOOOO yeah a guy who has never been a 1st AST, never been nominated for the hart or lindsay is better than guys who have swept the awards while putting up 30+ more pts than him. Peak Toews was a 60pt player. Matthews just put up 60 goals. Thanks for the laugh.

The results speak for themselves. Toews consistently outplayed all of his counterparts in terms of net impact during his prime head to head, or when on the same team like at the Olympics. People point to Toews’s teammates to try to detract from his impact but playing with Kane/Keith is not any different than playing with Kucherov/Hedman/Vasi. Both playing on elite championship teams, Toews was a primary play driver and Stamkos was a complementary player.

Matthews, I know it’s a controversial statement and I don’t want to open a can of worms with Leafs fans so I’ll leave it at that