Steve Yzerman Thread
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Wood Stick
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jkutswings
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And yet not quite as ridiculous as the tangents in other threads that likely inspired its creation.
Hooray for Steves everywhere! Yzerman, Harvey, Martin...
Can't blame SY for Tampa not making the playoffs. Can't blame Holland for Detroit not making the playoffs. What we can blame is Holland handing out bad contracts....all of this while Stevie is getting out of binds with bad contracts and keeping the younger core together. He will win a cup in Tampa. Just has to find the right parts now.
Henkka
Registered User
Yzerman and Nill are so much better with their multiple non-playoff seasons and missing Stanley Cups as a manager. 
Yzerman also has a massive advantage when it comes to offering contracts because of Florida's tax situation.
Take Stamkos' deal for example. For him to make as much money playing in Detroit as he does in Tampa the Wings would have to pay him 77 million instead of the 68 he gets in Tampa. His cap hit would also go from the 8.5 it is on the Lightning to 11 million on the Wings.
I don't think that negates any of the great things Yzerman has done down there, but it is a factor in how he's able to keep his core together easier than teams in areas where state and provincial taxes are far higher.
Take Stamkos' deal for example. For him to make as much money playing in Detroit as he does in Tampa the Wings would have to pay him 77 million instead of the 68 he gets in Tampa. His cap hit would also go from the 8.5 it is on the Lightning to 11 million on the Wings.
I don't think that negates any of the great things Yzerman has done down there, but it is a factor in how he's able to keep his core together easier than teams in areas where state and provincial taxes are far higher.
I mean, technically the Red Wings have 5 players that are 30+ and 2 that are exactly 30.
I'd also argue that 3 of the those 5 30+ players are a lot better than mediocre (Z, Nielsen, Green).
I think you're blowing things out of proportion.
**i didn't count Franzen or Vitale
Ricelund
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There's no state income tax in Texas or Tennessee either and it won't be an issue in Nevada either. It never seemed to come up before the Stamkos. I'm thinking maybe it had more to do with Tampa was a better team, the team he's spent his whole career with and that Tampa could offer an extra year.
Yzerman seems to make all the right moves, but so far has nothing to show for it. Until he wins a Stanely Cup, there really is nothing to discuss.
Shaman464
No u
That's why no one wants to play for Chicago, any California teams or the Rangers
. Suter decided that Michigan's 4% tax rate was highway robbery and went to Minnesota, there it's only 10% for his income bracket.
jkutswings
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Nobody is claiming that most players are ignoring roster talent or market in favor of tax status. But there's nothing wrong with saying that it can play at least a small factor in an occasional decision, which makes it a tangible advantage.That's why no one wants to play for Chicago, any California teams or the Rangers
Shaman464
No u
It's not the reason players aren't choosing to play in Detroit. Do you think these guys pay much, if any taxes?
That's why no one wants to play for Chicago, any California teams or the Rangers
I only used the Wings as an example because we're on a Wings board.
The same holds true for just about every other team out there that has to pay a higher tax rate than the Florida teams do.
It was even worse for Toronto trying to sign Stamkos than it was Detroit, they would have to offer Stamkos just under 90 million to match Tampa's 68 Million with a cap hit of 12.7 million dollars. Even worse the Leafs have to pay their players in US dollars but make their money in Canadian Dollars, making offers even more expensive for them.
I do agree with Puck Dynasty that the issue really only came to light when Stamkos hit Free Agency, and that there were other factors that led him back there rather than just the money.
Regardless, the fact remains that a small group of teams have an edge that in a way gives them a larger cap to work with than the rest of the league.
You're getting hung up on Detroit.
There are many reasons why players wouldn't want to come to Detroit, that's entirely irrelevant to the advantage the Lightning, Panthers, Predators and Stars have over the other 26 teams in the league.
Shaman464
No u
SoupNazi
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HIFE
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That's a drastic standard to set for the value of a discussion. 11 teams have still never won it all and a low % of players even get the chance in the finals. For how extremely special it is to win the Cup I'd place that occasion in a category almost beyond human effort.
The Lightning making the conference and SC finals the year before is impressive. Their series vs. Pittsburgh was the best of the PO's (IMO) and in 7 games were that close. This may be a re-tooling year but Yzerman has set up his team with a much brighter near future than the Wings- that much is obvious.
Shaman464
No u
Have you missed the last 10 years of US politics? Because the fact of the matter that the rich, by virtue of their wealth, are able to legally absolve themselves of their nominal tax burden, is common knowledge. This is common knowledge to the point that it was a major subject of the most watched US presidential debates in US history. While players selflessly give their time and money to charity, they also both have the right, and ability to use that to reduce their tax burden. They also, by virtue of their wealth and social standing have the ability to retain some of the best tax attorneys that also work to legally reduce their effective tax rate. As such, this makes their tax burden at minimum a non-factor towards their decision making process in UFA. There is nothing in here that points to me accusing anyone of anything other than working within the law, as it stands today.
And as an side to FlashyG, I would look up 'Jock Tax' which is nominally how pro athletes state taxes are calculated. But, Stamkos still, nominally, paying state taxes for at least a third of the games he plays.
Stevie's done a great job at turning an advantageous situation with some good pieces in place into an expected contender, mostly via some great late round picks and mostly good trades.
Credit where it is due. That said, most of his best moves have been made from initially a position of very little expectation and more recently from a position of relative strength. The next 3 years will tell us a lot. With Hedman, Stamkos, Kucherov there is a great core in each key position. They have some fantastic complementary pieces. But the older players added to take the team to playoff success are nearly all on the downward curve, and this year the team has significantly under-performed, even taking injuries into account.
Getting the right mix of coach, roster and upcoming talent is vital to get that cup win and remain a contender for any length of time, particularly in the cap era. Its also harder than the odd bit of great drafting or the odd great trade. I personally think he might well pull it off, but right now the jury's out about long term ability in the role. That said, he's already proven enough to be a good jump-start GM for a rebuilding franchise.
Credit where it is due. That said, most of his best moves have been made from initially a position of very little expectation and more recently from a position of relative strength. The next 3 years will tell us a lot. With Hedman, Stamkos, Kucherov there is a great core in each key position. They have some fantastic complementary pieces. But the older players added to take the team to playoff success are nearly all on the downward curve, and this year the team has significantly under-performed, even taking injuries into account.
Getting the right mix of coach, roster and upcoming talent is vital to get that cup win and remain a contender for any length of time, particularly in the cap era. Its also harder than the odd bit of great drafting or the odd great trade. I personally think he might well pull it off, but right now the jury's out about long term ability in the role. That said, he's already proven enough to be a good jump-start GM for a rebuilding franchise.
ricky0034
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yeah that's what I think makes any Yzerman talk so silly
showing a GM with Holland's resume the door literally a year after back to back finals appearances(and having just lost Hossa plus some really solid depth in Hudler and Samuelsson to the cap to excuse the worse but still decent season he had just had)and for an unproven guy to boot? what team does that?(and Illitch even floated the idea to Holland and Holland wasn't interested so it literally would have been forcing him out)
at least Nill is actually somewhat realistic coming a few years later and with his long tenure as the assistant GM
jkutswings
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Yes, the wealthy have tremendous advantages.
Yes, said advantages greatly reduce the taxes they're initially responsible for.
Yes, when done to max legal efficiency, this leaves them with an easily manageable tax responsibility.
But it's not handwaving it to zero, and Player X, with everything else being equal, still pays more if he plays in Toronto than Tampa.
(And not all players are smart with their money to begin with, so don't act like it's irrelevant because the league is filled with Warren Buffets.)
obey86
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It will be interesting to see how Yzerman builds his team moving forward without Bishop and now that Stamkos and Hedman have more expensive contacts.
The next two seasons are probably their sweet spot for contention before Kucherov needs a new and very expensive contract, and potentially the Leafs, Sabres, and/or Panthers become contenders within the division. Outside of Hedman, looks like all their defenders are pretty offensiveness as well (2nd highest this season is Stralman, with 15 points and they don't have another defender over 8 points.).
The next two seasons are probably their sweet spot for contention before Kucherov needs a new and very expensive contract, and potentially the Leafs, Sabres, and/or Panthers become contenders within the division. Outside of Hedman, looks like all their defenders are pretty offensiveness as well (2nd highest this season is Stralman, with 15 points and they don't have another defender over 8 points.).
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Players do pay taxes. There are a few threads on BOH that break down the amounts and jock taxes, where relevant, by state or city.
However, if they are clever and get good accountants, they may be able to invest some maximum amount to avoid paying more. I think real estate is probably still the biggest tax break they can get.
What we cannot do is say Player X is not paying his legal amount of taxation.
