Post-Game Talk: Steelcroft: (Not) Far From Home

[Cloned]

Point is you’d have better luck packaging nurse + for Petriangelo or Doughty than you would trading Keith + for a better 2nd pair D. The market for Keith is like 3-4 teams maybe at best. Nurse would garner interest from 20+ teams.

It was an exaggerated hypothetical to make a point. Trading Keith is really, really unrealistic. Getting a better player back even more so.

From what I've read Keith basically saved the season by telling the guys to support Koskinen. Otherwise the team could have imploded and it would've been ugly.

 

[Satire]

Seen it before. As we've stated this team drags you in, and pushes you away. I need more time. To me this is the same club that just got a coach fired a week ago, again. So its going to take some time. tbh lately I'm finding the team aggravating, and by lately I mean the last few months of play. I think I'm getting too old for every game to be a nail biter. Maybe I just pvr the games and just watch knowing the result. Or not watching. Might be more enjoyable.

This is fair. I took a break from watching the games after about game 20 because I wasn't feeling it. I would still check the scores and watch highlights but I felt like the team wasn't invested much. It would lead to me feeling frustrated during the games. Still watched the games with my brother/dad on occassion though.

I started watching again when Tippett was fired. I don't have the same hate on for Tippett as the rest here, but I did not like the space the team was giving in the D Zone. The team looks to be invested out there which is nice to see. I'm hesitant to put too much stock into these improvements, but I'm enjoying the effort and the games so far. Maybe you just need a bit of break to get some fresh perspective. I think we still have a flawed team, but as long as the effort is there I'm happy.

Whether I'm watching actively or not, definitely still always on the side of the team and cheering them on. Always an Oilers fan. If I can continue to cheer through 2007-2015, this isn't so bad by comparison. Haha.

 

[LaGu]

From what I've read Keith basically saved the season by telling the guys to support Koskinen. Otherwise the team could have imploded and it would've been ugly.

Really, that is interesting and a great story if true. I have not followed much lately but is this reported somewhere? A quick google search did not give much at all.

 

[redgrant]

From what I've read Keith basically saved the season by telling the guys to support Koskinen. Otherwise the team could have imploded and it would've been ugly.

Wtf are you talking about? God the mental gymnastics some people go through to make someone look better.

This team had a million game losing streak and the "leader" duncan Keith didn't do anything. Just goes to show how much paying for these silly intangibles is irrelevant.

 

[redgrant]

Really, that is interesting and a great story if true. I have not followed much lately but is this reported somewhere? A quick google search did not give much at all.

There is no story he's just making up nonsense the same way people insist "Sam gagner is a good guy in the community" without ever having met him.

Keith was useless during our massive losing streak like the rest of the team and showed zero leadership.

 

[Cloned]

Wtf are you talking about? God the mental gymnastics some people go through to make someone look better.

This team had a million game losing streak and the "leader" duncan Keith didn't do anything. Just goes to show how much paying for these silly intangibles is irrelevant.

I don’t even particularly like Keith. I think he’s best served as a 3LD and he’s overpaid for that.

But he did apparently tell the guys to support Koskinen after Tippett threw him under the bus. The team could very well have imploded at that point.

 

[sOiled]

There is no story he's just making up nonsense the same way people insist "Sam gagner is a good guy in the community" without ever having met him.

I've met Sam Gagner - He's a really good guy. Same with his wife. Good people. Was very sad when he got shipped off to Detroit.

 

[harpoon]

You mean when the poster told me to "go to bed" and I'm the inappropriate one? Come on now. f*** off was probably a little extreme though and I shouldn't have said it, in retrospect, but it was late and I was getting lambasted with angry responses.

Along the scale of inappropriate responses to disagreement I’ll leave you to evaluate the difference between ‘go to bed’, ‘ridiculous’ and ‘f off’. Looking at the last page of this thread though, you seem to have started a trend. I know you’ve been here long enough to recall the days when that would have been an immediate infraction.

It was a valid opinion. I like Kane showing toughness but that was not the time or place for it IMO. Lemeiux baited him into it and it could have cost the Oilers the game in a game where scoring chances were few and far between.
If Kassian had done that, I bet a bunch of posters would have called him a bonehead etc. because he's on the hated list currently but with Kane being the new guy, perspective is different.

Disagree entirely with that first part. Since when have we started blaming losses on a guy for taking a two minute penalty? Oh wait, I remember. It was back when some guy went on and on and on about how Archibald cost the team a whole f***ing playoff series by making one ill-advised, poorly timed hit. Kassian definitely has his haters so you probably aren’t far wrong with that second part, but I would have been just as pleased with the play no matter who had done it. Certainly would have cheered if it had been Kassian. Lemieux didn’t ‘bait’ anyone. He ran around and paid the price. As it should be. Maybe one day he’ll learn to stop hiding behind the officials.

Anyway, lets move on. I have my opinion and you have yours. BTW, you see how I didn't call your opinion "ridiculous". There's a way of having a civil exchange even through disagreement.

Setting aside the irony of receiving a lecture on civil discourse from the guy telling other community members to f-off, I must admit that looking back at the comments from the GDT you may have a point here. I had mistaken you for the person who suggested several times that Kane be sent down to the AHL. That was the comment I intended to (accurately) label as ridiculous. So while your comments were imo grumpy and overstated, I retract the incorrect application of that adjective.

 

[Aerchon]

Okay, what are we gonna do with that contract? Can’t trade it.

he’s still miles better than everyone you want playing instead of him

and I’m sure he’ll look better under woodcroft, like every other defender has.

or do you not remember how bad broberg was under tippett?

Contract wise and factoring in his age it’s probably more realistic to trade nurse. Keith came here with the intent of playing out his final years here. He’ll retire before he accepts a trade.

Nurse’s contract is massive, few teams could absorb it even if they wanted to. Keith’s going into his final year you could retain enough to have him at ~3ish. Keith has shown enough that teams will expect to get at least a 3rd pairing player out of him, totally reasonable at that price. 20+ teams could fit him, and Keith was willing to go to a couple of different teams in the NW originally. He is on record saying he wants to sign another contract after this one and keep playing in the NHL. We could probably flip him to Calgary w/ retention for a 3rd tomorrow no problem.

Dealing Nurse would be stupid for a lot of reasons, but also incredibly difficult and impractical mid season. Those types of trades rarely happen because its such a massive complication for long term cap structures of most competitive cap teams. Even if you found a dance partner and got good value you would probably wind up taking weird players/contracts back out of necessity. Most importantly, the Oilers would probably lose the trade and the D core would be destroyed and we’d be rebuilding.
If you dealt Keith for a 3rd, you could probably flip that 3rd for a comparable D-man at the deadline. We got Kulikov for a 4th last year, and Kulikov >>>> Keith this year.

Point is you’d have better luck packaging nurse + for Petriangelo or Doughty than you would trading Keith + for a better 2nd pair D. The market for Keith is like 3-4 teams maybe at best. Nurse would garner interest from 20+ teams.

It was an exaggerated hypothetical to make a point. Trading Keith is really, really unrealistic. Getting a better player back even more so.

If only certain teams valued high cap hits with absurdly low actual dollar hits...

If only certain teams could actually use a #4 defenseman AND need a high cap hit with a low actual dollar amount...

Cough.... Arizona.... Cough... Montreal... Cough... Maybe others.

The Keith contract is actually somewhat valuable to the right team.

I will again repeat, as I stated from the start, I know its a pipe dream. Im purely speculating/drooling over all the wonderful players supposedly being shopped (Chychrun) or rentals that would improve upon our team and our cap situation in the event we "could" move out Keith.

At the end of the day doesn't Keith have a no movement clause as well? Not sure and too lazy to go look.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Really, that is interesting and a great story if true. I have not followed much lately but is this reported somewhere? A quick google search did not give much at all.

Cloned is lifting my stated theory that it was Keith that initiated. Keith had said some things before Drai, and then McD, praised Koskinen in post game availability. I also pointed out that of all the Oilers D it was Keith for several games making sure to give Koskinen a tap on the pads each time he made a stop. Little things like that created acceptance of players and pulled Koskinen back into the team. This is at the time that Lagesson was reporting rifts and that players felt not part of things and not included. So a vet like Keith knew the answers before other players on this team did.

 

[fuswald]

I was really impressed with Broberg. Made some boobs, ...

I resemble that remark. I like boobs.

 

[McBooya42]

We can see little Jay Woodcroft at 8:43 of this Youtube video...

The Littlest Hobo Set a High Bar by Parachuting a Dog into a Forest Fire in Its Very First Episode | Den of Geek

Don't eat it Woody!

 

[McBooya42]

I'm sorry but I'm so F#%/N feed up of watching both Mcdavid and Draisatl try some low percentage hail mary shots or dangling 1-2 guys and turning over the puck instead of passing the puck to Jesse.

I know Pulju has been struggling and you can lable me another finnish Bison king fan boy, but even the commentators can't stop blowing smoke up Mcdavid's a$$.

I hope for his sake Holland moves him for a top 4 D and or a solid defensive matchup 3 C in the offseason because he is never going to win any cups with the Oilers.

I pray for the day when Mcdavid will have a coach like Rod Brindamour/Rick Tocchet that would hold him accountable and force him to develop his overall game and leadership.

Does Mcdavid lack the hockey IQ to make the right defensive plays as a center or is he just not that interrested in defending/winning?

Hmmm...

 

[LaGu]

Cloned is lifting my stated theory that it was Keith that initiated. Keith had said some things before Drai, and then McD, praised Koskinen in post game availability. I also pointed out that of all the Oilers D it was Keith for several games making sure to give Koskinen a tap on the pads each time he made a stop. Little things like that created acceptance of players and pulled Koskinen back into the team. This is at the time that Lagesson was reporting rifts and that players felt not part of things and not included. So a vet like Keith knew the answers before other players on this team did.

Thanks! I was asking in good faith, even though some didn’t read it that way. I like what Keith brings, both on and off the ice. For me that kind of behaviour makes a lot of sense in a player like that, he knows what it takes to win, he knows you have bring everyone along. That’s the game in the cap era, and it’s probably pretty important to accept that if you want to win.

 

[McShogun99]

There is no story he's just making up nonsense the same way people insist "Sam gagner is a good guy in the community" without ever having met him.

Keith was useless during our massive losing streak like the rest of the team and showed zero leadership.

Sam Gagner is an awesome guy. I've met him numerous times thru work over the years. Anything good people say about him is most likely true.

 

[LaGu]

Hmmm...

Drai with 16 mins under Tippett??? Drai went 6 games in a row with 0 EV goals against under Tippett.

Just because the poster says “yes it’s a small sample size” does not excuse that it is a small sample size. Not small, ridiculously small, these are season stats as corsi. Not game by game basis, it’s not relevant at all. Or by the same measure if let’s say Lagesson is on ice for a goal against and none for in the next game I can compare that with the first three. Saying look at his 0 GF% after the new-coach bump wore off. I don’t like this, I really hope we’ve turned a corner here, but this is not any proof of it.

also when your keepers are letting in less than a goal per game, these stats mean even less than usual. Look if this continues for the next 15-20 games then I’m on-board. But before that no.

 

[CupofOil]

Along the scale of inappropriate responses to disagreement I’ll leave you to evaluate the difference between ‘go to bed’, ‘ridiculous’ and ‘f off’. Looking at the last page of this thread though, you seem to have started a trend. I know you’ve been here long enough to recall the days when that would have been an immediate infraction.
Disagree entirely with that first part. Since when have we started blaming losses on a guy for taking a two minute penalty? Oh wait, I remember. It was back when some guy went on and on and on about how Archibald cost the team a whole f***ing playoff series by making one ill-advised, poorly timed hit. Kassian definitely has his haters so you probably aren’t far wrong with that second part, but I would have been just as pleased with the play no matter who had done it. Certainly would have cheered if it had been Kassian. Lemieux didn’t ‘bait’ anyone. He ran around and paid the price. As it should be. Maybe one day he’ll learn to stop hiding behind the officials.
Setting aside the irony of receiving a lecture on civil discourse from the guy telling other community members to f-off, I must admit that looking back at the comments from the GDT you may have a point here. I had mistaken you for the person who suggested several times that Kane be sent down to the AHL. That was the comment I intended to (accurately) label as ridiculous. So while your comments were imo grumpy and overstated, I retract the incorrect application of that adjective.

I think you're coming on too strong with some of these comments and took what I said about Kane way out of context but I sent you a PM so we can continue the conversation there, if you wish, for the sake of everybody else on this board.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Thanks! I was asking in good faith, even though some didn’t read it that way. I like what Keith brings, both on and off the ice. For me that kind of behaviour makes a lot of sense in a player like that, he knows what it takes to win, he knows you have bring everyone along. That’s the game in the cap era, and it’s probably pretty important to accept that if you want to win.

The wife gave me Mark Messier's book for an Xmas present. Pretty much must read, and I even suspect the players have, because Mess would be the first to say that you have to have a team, and make everybody part of that team. Without team you don't find traction. The days of players looking on and scorning if a goalie let in a weak goal here are in the past. Hopefully. Fans can be very fickle when it comes to players and their parts, but teams cannot be that way. You accept each other as long as you are on the same team.

Holland gets a lot of criticism for his "The solutions are in the room" quote but a lot of what gets stated can be taken many ways. One possible way is that the players have to find the solutions in the room. Which good teams tend to do. Not absolving that you need good personnel at all positions, but a different way to look at everybody rowing harder to find the solution. So that our goalies of course look better when all the D and forwards are rowing in time.

 

[McBooya42]

Drai with 16 mins under Tippett??? Drai went 6 games in a row with 0 EV goals against under Tippett.

Just because the poster says “yes it’s a small sample size” does not excuse that it is a small sample size. Not small, ridiculously small, these are season stats as corsi. Not game by game basis, it’s not relevant at all. Or by the same measure if let’s say Lagesson is on ice for a goal against and none for in the next game I can compare that with the first three. Saying look at his 0 GF% after the new-coach bump wore off. I don’t like this, I really hope we’ve turned a corner here, but this is not any proof of it.

also when your keepers are letting in less than a goal per game, these stats mean even less than usual. Look if this continues for the next 15-20 games then I’m on-board. But before that no.

So you take the warning, disregard the warning, and then complain about what you were warned about?

 

[LaGu]

So you take the warning, disregard the warning, and then complain about what you were warned about?

Of course!

I mean you posted it. I get what you are getting at, and you may be right, but it is a logical fallacy saying you’re using a small (which in this case means irrelevant) sample size and the go on to talk about “changes that has amazed you” (you as in the poster). No, does not make sense, not yet.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Drai with 16 mins under Tippett??? Drai went 6 games in a row with 0 EV goals against under Tippett.

Just because the poster says “yes it’s a small sample size” does not excuse that it is a small sample size. Not small, ridiculously small, these are season stats as corsi. Not game by game basis, it’s not relevant at all. Or by the same measure if let’s say Lagesson is on ice for a goal against and none for in the next game I can compare that with the first three. Saying look at his 0 GF% after the new-coach bump wore off. I don’t like this, I really hope we’ve turned a corner here, but this is not any proof of it.

also when your keepers are letting in less than a goal per game, these stats mean even less than usual. Look if this continues for the next 15-20 games then I’m on-board. But before that no.

Yep. I don't get it either. I never really do when people say. "the sample is really small" i.e. can't be concluded to mean anything, and yet go on to make a wallchart of columns of advanced stats that even have the proviso of small samples not meaning anything.

I don't think Drai has even played that well in this stint. He's been very slow and plodding on breaks where he could instead jump the plays and leading to an odd man break for us and a scoring opportunity. seeing him stop up when the other team is caught is painful to look at. That said could be a temporary look while he's figuring out where to be, in the new scheme, vs what his instinct would be prior.

The one thing that Tippett did OK was not constrain his top stars. Too early to tell but I'm getting some indication Drai production will go down under. Woodcroft. Which is no benefit to club unless Drai GA goes down more.

 

[McBooya42]

Of course!

I mean you posted it. I get what you are getting at, and you may be right, but it is a logical fallacy saying you’re using a small (which in this case means irrelevant) sample size and the go on to talk about “changes that has amazed you” (you as in the poster). No, does not make sense, not yet.

That's not my post on Reddit. All I posted (here) was Hmmm and a link to the Reddit post.
READ BETTER, ASSUME LESS.

 

[LaGu]

Yep. I don't get it either. I never really do when people say. "the sample is really small" i.e. can't be concluded to mean anything, and yet go on to make a wallchart of columns of advanced stats that even have the proviso of small samples not meaning anything.

I don't think Drai has even played that well in this stint. He's been very slow and plodding on breaks where he could instead jump the plays and leading to an odd man break for us and a scoring opportunity. seeing him stop up when the other team is caught is painful to look at. That said could be a temporary look while he's figuring out where to be, in the new scheme, vs what his instinct would be prior.

The one thing that Tippett did OK was not constrain his top stars. Too early to tell but I'm getting some indication Drai production will go down under. Woodcroft. Which is no benefit to club unless Drai GA goes down more.

Yes, I said before that Drai is a bit of a hidden resource so far (wording may be wrong, but the idea should be clear). He’s been slow under woodcroft, maybe you are right and he’ll be less productive, but I tend to think (hope) the German Gretzky cannot be stopped by coaching

 

[McTedi]

Yep. I don't get it either. I never really do when people say. "the sample is really small" i.e. can't be concluded to mean anything, and yet go on to make a wallchart of columns of advanced stats that even have the proviso of small samples not meaning anything.

I don't think Drai has even played that well in this stint. He's been very slow and plodding on breaks where he could instead jump the plays and leading to an odd man break for us and a scoring opportunity. seeing him stop up when the other team is caught is painful to look at. That said could be a temporary look while he's figuring out where to be, in the new scheme, vs what his instinct would be prior.

The one thing that Tippett did OK was not constrain his top stars. Too early to tell but I'm getting some indication Drai production will go down under. Woodcroft. Which is no benefit to club unless Drai GA goes down more.

Meh, maybe. But if the end result is we win more games then so be it. Drai is too good to be snakebit forever. Mcdrai were obviously overplayed early in the year and I think we are witnessing the result of that over the last month. Both have dragged ass at times during the drought. It also shows in the execution on the PP, they aren't moving the puck quick enough or getting off good shots. Look at Drai early in the year and he was getting his shots off extremely quick and accurate. Fresh players make better reads, better shots and have legs late in games. I think Woodcroft coming in has been a wakeup call and new ideas/structure can rejuvenate everyone. Not worried about Mcdrai at all, they are elite talents.

 

[Drivesaitl]

That's not my post on Reddit. All I posted (here) was Hmmm and a link to the Reddit post.
READ BETTER, ASSUME LESS.

Just my own part here, I didn't take it as your wall of text. So my comment was just in general about somebody doing the limited sample mental gymnastics. You just happened to cite and repost it. But a poster could think that you, by citing it, are in agreement. you haven't clarified that. hmmm doesn't really state a lot for the reader to go on.