Post-Game Talk: Steelcroft: (Not) Far From Home

ujju2

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Apr 9, 2016
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Yep. I don't get it either. I never really do when people say. "the sample is really small" i.e. can't be concluded to mean anything, and yet go on to make a wallchart of columns of advanced stats that even have the proviso of small samples not meaning anything.

I don't think Drai has even played that well in this stint. He's been very slow and plodding on breaks where he could instead jump the plays and leading to an odd man break for us and a scoring opportunity. seeing him stop up when the other team is caught is painful to look at. That said could be a temporary look while he's figuring out where to be, in the new scheme, vs what his instinct would be prior.

The one thing that Tippett did OK was not constrain his top stars. Too early to tell but I'm getting some indication Drai production will go down under. Woodcroft. Which is no benefit to club unless Drai GA goes down more.

I'd disagree. Personally I chalk up his seemingly subpar play so far to poor chemistry between him, Kane, and Yamamoto. I expect that will either improve over time, of Woodcroft will see it and make a change. I'm not convinced coaching has been the cause. of his troubles beyond the line combinations.
 

Tobias Kahun

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Oct 3, 2017
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If only certain teams valued high cap hits with absurdly low actual dollar hits...

If only certain teams could actually use a #4 defenseman AND need a high cap hit with a low actual dollar amount...

Cough.... Arizona.... Cough... Montreal... Cough... Maybe others.

The Keith contract is actually somewhat valuable to the right team.

I will again repeat, as I stated from the start, I know its a pipe dream. Im purely speculating/drooling over all the wonderful players supposedly being shopped (Chychrun) or rentals that would improve upon our team and our cap situation in the event we "could" move out Keith.

At the end of the day doesn't Keith have a no movement clause as well? Not sure and too lazy to go look.
Okay, Keith has a NMC, how do you plan on getting him to waive for Arizona

he will look better under woodcroft like every other player, he’s still a lot better than lags, broberg and Niem
 
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Drivesaitl

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Meh, maybe. But if the end result is we win more games then so be it. Drai is too good to be snakebit forever. Mcdrai were obviously overplayed early in the year and I think we are witnessing the result of that over the last month. Both have dragged ass at times during the drought. It also shows in the execution on the PP, they aren't moving the puck quick enough or getting off good shots. Look at Drai early in the year and he was getting his shots off extremely quick and accurate. Fresh players make better reads, better shots and have legs late in games. I think Woodcroft coming in has been a wakeup call and new ideas/structure can rejuvenate everyone. Not worried about Mcdrai at all, they are elite talents.

We'll see what happens. No conclusions can be drawn from the limited sample. All we got is thus far commentary. What I do know is that Tippett made it a priority to green light the offensive forays of two generational production forwards. That had specific value to those players, and their production was peak or near peak in the Tippett time frame. Whether it was beneficial for the club as a whole is another discussion.

Every coach comes in with new ideas and some impetus and usually short term results are seen. Of course elite players will find a way. But I don't think Drai will be more successful offensively in this scheme. I'm just framing that as a thought.
 
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McBooya42

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Just my own part here, I didn't take it as your wall of text. So my comment was just in general about somebody doing the limited sample mental gymnastics. You just happened to cite and repost it. But a poster could think that you, by citing it, are in agreement. you haven't clarified that. hmmm doesn't really state a lot for the reader to go on.
Sure it does. Hmmm means exactly what you think it means. Always has, always will. Pointing out something to ponder about, but non-comital...

If I had wanted to put an opinion on it, I would have. For the record, it's a small sample size but still intriguing.
 

Drivesaitl

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I'd disagree. Personally I chalk up his seemingly subpar play so far to poor chemistry between him, Kane, and Yamamoto. I expect that will either improve over time, of Woodcroft will see it and make a change. I'm not convinced coaching has been the cause. of his troubles beyond the line combinations.

Longer term I don't think chemistry between Kane/Drai is an issue. I think its a natural and obvious fit, and that started under Tippett. fwiw. You know my feelings on Yama on that line. I would drop Pulju in there and make that line a super line, and make McD have to row a bit harder with a bit less help.
 
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McBooya42

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iu
 
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McTedi

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We'll see what happens. No conclusions can be drawn from the limited sample. All we got is thus far commentary. What I do know is that Tippett made it a priority to green light the offensive forays of two generational production forwards. That had specific value to those players, and their production was peak or near peak in the Tippett time frame. Whether it was beneficial for the club as a whole is another discussion.

Every coach comes in with new ideas and some impetus and usually short term results are seen. Of course elite players will find a way. But I don't think Drai will be more successful offensively in this scheme. I'm just framing that as a thought.
I agree with your assessment on Tippet but unfortunately that resulted in Mcdrai carrying the team for the first few months. The end result being exhaustion. There is a noticeable difference on the ice right now as far as defence. Less turnovers and better gap control by the D. But for there to be any longterm success Woodcroft will need to get special teams going and find the right chemistry on the top six. I'd like to see Holland pull off something around Yam to get an offensive winger for Drai. I think Kane should work on that line, he is slowly getting up to speed.
 

McShogun99

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Aug 30, 2009
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The wife gave me Mark Messier's book for an Xmas present. Pretty much must read, and I even suspect the players have, because Mess would be the first to say that you have to have a team, and make everybody part of that team. Without team you don't find traction. The days of players looking on and scorning if a goalie let in a weak goal here are in the past. Hopefully. Fans can be very fickle when it comes to players and their parts, but teams cannot be that way. You accept each other as long as you are on the same team.

Holland gets a lot of criticism for his "The solutions are in the room" quote but a lot of what gets stated can be taken many ways. One possible way is that the players have to find the solutions in the room. Which good teams tend to do. Not absolving that you need good personnel at all positions, but a different way to look at everybody rowing harder to find the solution. So that our goalies of course look better when all the D and forwards are rowing in time.

Easy to not be mad at the goalie when during the course of Messier's career he had Moog, Fuhr, Ranford and Richter. If Koskinen was making under 2 million a year he'd be one of the best backups in the league.
 
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iCanada

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Feb 6, 2010
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Woodcroft might be one of the least "old boy's club" hires the team has made.

He's not an ex-Oiler player and doesn't really have any connection to the team other than coming in and learning his craft as a head coach down in Bako after being an assistant earlier... which is really what you want a coach to do... to learn as an assistant coach in the NHL and then coach in the AHL as a head coach until ready to get a look at the NHL level as a head coach.

I guess Eakins was an "outside hire" as well and that didn't exactly work out so well... so hopefully this young head coach ends up with better results.

By the same token... he was a coach for the team and for Babcock in Detroit.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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Feb 19, 2003
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We'll see what happens. No conclusions can be drawn from the limited sample. All we got is thus far commentary. What I do know is that Tippett made it a priority to green light the offensive forays of two generational production forwards. That had specific value to those players, and their production was peak or near peak in the Tippett time frame. Whether it was beneficial for the club as a whole is another discussion.

Every coach comes in with new ideas and some impetus and usually short term results are seen. Of course elite players will find a way. But I don't think Drai will be more successful offensively in this scheme. I'm just framing that as a thought.

Interesting pov. This team's roster was left threadbare after Chiarelli's scorched earth exit. Riding two elites became a necessity strategy to ice a competitive team out of the gate with essentially no forward depth and suspect goaltending. Hold the fort for competitiveness until this (latest) management group could pick away to build up competent depth ... essentially at forward but also extending to defense as they had to recalibrate the d-corp as well with losing their best defenseman Klefbom.

I was excited by the Kane acquisition and move to the three centre spine strategy. Have felt this model is the roadmap to becoming a legitimate playoff team resetting the minutes and better balancing this team to win. Though I also feel a consequence of this will some recalibration of McDavid and Draisaitl's production from outsized pinball level so far above other top players in the league to a more normalizing production in the 100-115 point range. Doesn't diminish the vital importance of having two super elites on this team but gradually building up the quality support around them is critical to any hope of winning in the playoffs. Still holes to fill (including upgrade in net) but the framework to succeed is starting to take shape. Woodcroft is showing really strong positives in his early deployment of this team's personnel which still is an unfinished, work in progress.

I have zero doubt McDavid and Draisaitl will welcome a more realistic sharing of the load required to win in a tough league. And they've said repeatedly about putting aside personal accolades for team success is overwhelmingly priority 1. Doing so with the 3 centre spine is the roadmap to that possibility.
 

Drivesaitl

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Interesting pov. This team's roster was left threadbare after Chiarelli's scorched earth exit. Riding two elites became a necessity strategy to ice a competitive team out of the gate with essentially no forward depth and suspect goaltending. Hold the fort for competitiveness until this (latest) management group could pick away to build up competent depth ... essentially at forward but also extending to defense as they had to recalibrate the d-corp as well with losing their best defenseman Klefbom.

I was excited by the Kane acquisition and move to the three centre spine strategy. Have felt this model is the roadmap to becoming a legitimate playoff team resetting the minutes and better balancing this team to win. Though I also feel a consequence of this will some recalibration of McDavid and Draisaitl's production from outsized pinball level so far above other top players in the league to a more normalizing production in the 100-115 point range. Doesn't diminish the vital importance of having two super elites on this team but gradually building up the quality support around them is critical to any hope of winning in the playoffs. Still holes to fill (including upgrade in net) but the framework to succeed is starting to take shape. Woodcroft is showing really strong positives in his early deployment of this team's personnel which still is an unfinished, work in progress.

I have zero doubt McDavid and Draisaitl will welcome a more realistic sharing of the load required to win in a tough league. And they've said repeatedly about putting aside personal accolades for team success is overwhelmingly priority 1. Doing so with the 3 centre spine is the roadmap to that possibility.

Theres two things at work here.

1) The 3 line transition occurred through Tippett, the moment Kane got here. I state this because other posters (not you) in a months time will be attributing this quantum change to Woodcroft. The transtion to 3 lines should not hamper your top stars production too much, because it actually opens up increasing shifts where opponent has trouble coming up with line matching, or has to spread their coverage. McDrai production wise would benefit in that scenario, even with somewhat reduced minutes.

2)Blanket adherence to schemes among ALL players can limit the peak production of generational talents. Its the primary reason Tippett had come in here and said that he would greenlight McDrai. That they would be allowed to continue to play aggressively forward, and that their offensive instincts would not be curtailed. This is not a solo thing. Deboers and other coaches believe in the same. That these are the two players you allow to cheat forward, same way Gretz was always allowed to. Woodcroft from my understanding isn't that way. He wants all players coming back in NZ, and being numbers back. Its possible under Woodcroft that deep forward and Jump D gets somewhat curtailed. I mean theres still some confusion in it to be expected but the last 3 games I've seen Drai be hesitant on the rush. My belief is that McDrai are better as free agent players using their offensive instincts.

This leads me to the last thought that constant flux can exist in how players would play naturally, than in very scheme enhanced play. I think this can often confuse players as it becomes contrasting instinct vs "oh this is what I'm supposed to do" As others have mentioned non stellar players like Foegele or Ryan benefit more from enhanced structure. Its not as clear that superstars do.
 

SwedishFire

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Mar 3, 2011
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I don’t even particularly like Keith. I think he’s best served as a 3LD and he’s overpaid for that.

But he did apparently tell the guys to support Koskinen after Tippett threw him under the bus. The team could very well have imploded at that point.

Kieth is overall a good get. And there would be a wound in the defence if 4K had to be the 2D. So he fills a place. I dont either mind the 5 m$caphit, even if Holland neogotioted badly, he will probably be worth kund of 4m$ at least.
But that Holland once again threw away a 2nd, and a 3rd as well, esp when he is very good at drafting hits me. 2nd rounders had latley been macLeod, Lavoie/Savoie(?), 3rd rounders had given Niemilainen, Nd so on. They find good prospects. Now 2 NHLers are gone. And Holland has no trade assets for trading deadline, trying to convince teams that a 5th rounder is a perfect netting in a trade.

Yeah. Good luck.
Chicago got c Jones, 2nd rounder, 3rd rounder and full cleaning of caphit. Thats baaad Holland.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

Registered User
Feb 19, 2003
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Theres two things at work here.

1) The 3 line transition occurred through Tippett, the moment Kane got here. I state this because other posters (not you) in a months time will be attributing this quantum change to Woodcroft. The transtion to 3 lines should not hamper your top stars production too much, because it actually opens up increasing shifts where opponent has trouble coming up with line matching, or has to spread their coverage. McDrai production wise would benefit in that scenario, even with somewhat reduced minutes.

2)Blanket adherence to schemes among ALL players can limit the peak production of generational talents. Its the primary reason Tippett had come in here and said that he would greenlight McDrai. That they would be allowed to continue to play aggressively forward, and that their offensive instincts would not be curtailed. This is not a solo thing. Deboers and other coaches believe in the same. That these are the two players you allow to cheat forward, same way Gretz was always allowed to. Woodcroft from my understanding isn't that way. He wants all players coming back in NZ, and being numbers back. Its possible under Woodcroft that deep forward and Jump D gets somewhat curtailed. I mean theres still some confusion in it to be expected but the last 3 games I've seen Drai be hesitant on the rush. My belief is that McDrai are better as free agent players using their offensive instincts.

This leads me to the last thought that constant flux can exist in how players would play naturally, than in very scheme enhanced play. I think this can often confuse players as it becomes contrasting instinct vs "oh this is what I'm supposed to do" As others have mentioned non stellar players like Foegele or Ryan benefit more from enhanced structure. Its not as clear that superstars do.

Agree on Point 1 which I'll call BK and PK ... before Kane and Post Kane ;) . This player finally enabled reasonable depth to roll out the 3C spine which Tippet did immediately. I'm glad Woodcroft has carried that through and feel he has deployed the forward lines and d-corp very well. Resetting McDavid and Puljujarvi moving up Hyman creates a strong two way top line. Draisaitl gets a big, physical volume shooter in Kane to help carry some physical load. Yamamoto gives a high work rate but production better fit on a good team's third line but in Edmonton's shallow depth he's tied to Draisaitl. Nugent Hopkins gets an erratic Foegele whose better set as a third line winger and some face-off/defensive support via a patch fix in Ryan. Cycling through top six players to give quality running mates for McLeod and Benson is smart.

About Point 2, we're four games into the regime change so I think it's too early to project what Woodcroft will do with his personnel deployment. This team has reset its work rate and simplifying its structure and building consistent execution has to help this team. I don't think it will sacrifice this team's offensive instincts let alone its two super elites. These are all elite level players who have played variations on systems play throughout their development. Heck Nugent Hopkins has had 8 variations of the theme with 8 NHL turnstile coaches. Players adapt through deeply learned experience.

We've seen on the PP flatlining that team's adjust to tendencies of this team and its two elites. I don't think McDavid or Draisaitl's high processor instincts will be inhibited with system tweaks that require structure and accountability across all zones on the ice. They think this game at a rare elite level that will always seem instinctual in exploiting weakness. Grez was other worldly in regular season play in a different era. But when required the Oil playoff machine learned to close out low scoring games.

Regarding your examples of Foegele and Ryan, the former is finally fit into a 3W spot where his speed and forecheck can be asset rather than a top six role where his hands and average processor are exposed. Ryan's game from Calgary days has dropped off but plug in as a utility winger with Nugent Hopkins who is hot returning from injury and Ryan is starting to look like a serviceable player again. They need that strong structure because their games are limited that elites who's processors and skills are on a different level. Woodcroft's deployment of the D has been fantastic.

This team is four games in. Lots of runway to see how Woodcroft rolls his lines and usage. I like what I've seen so far.
 

Duke74

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Jan 13, 2018
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Theres two things at work here.

1) The 3 line transition occurred through Tippett, the moment Kane got here. I state this because other posters (not you) in a months time will be attributing this quantum change to Woodcroft. The transtion to 3 lines should not hamper your top stars production too much, because it actually opens up increasing shifts where opponent has trouble coming up with line matching, or has to spread their coverage. McDrai production wise would benefit in that scenario, even with somewhat reduced minutes.

2)Blanket adherence to schemes among ALL players can limit the peak production of generational talents. Its the primary reason Tippett had come in here and said that he would greenlight McDrai. That they would be allowed to continue to play aggressively forward, and that their offensive instincts would not be curtailed. This is not a solo thing. Deboers and other coaches believe in the same. That these are the two players you allow to cheat forward, same way Gretz was always allowed to. Woodcroft from my understanding isn't that way. He wants all players coming back in NZ, and being numbers back. Its possible under Woodcroft that deep forward and Jump D gets somewhat curtailed. I mean theres still some confusion in it to be expected but the last 3 games I've seen Drai be hesitant on the rush. My belief is that McDrai are better as free agent players using their offensive instincts.

This leads me to the last thought that constant flux can exist in how players would play naturally, than in very scheme enhanced play. I think this can often confuse players as it becomes contrasting instinct vs "oh this is what I'm supposed to do" As others have mentioned non stellar players like Foegele or Ryan benefit more from enhanced structure. Its not as clear that superstars do.

Interesting discussion. I too have noticed that Draisaitl seems a bit lost in the new system. In contrast, McDavid has thrived, returning to his normal self, so I doubt Woodcroft has done or said anything to inhibit their offensive instincts.

I'm wondering if Draisaitl is just slower to adjust to new systems or if Kane and Yamamoto don't work as his linemates. Or, a third possibility that whatever has ailed Draisaitl since December is still ongoing. I actually didn't mind him with a combination of Puljujarvi, Foegele and McLeod. None of those guys are great finishers but Foegele and McLeod can pass decently enough and Puljujarvi creates chaos and space for the skilled players. I'm not thrilled that Yamamoto's been put back in that spot notwithstanding his goal last game but maybe Woodcroft can get the best out of him too.
 
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RegDunlop

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Nov 5, 2016
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In a nicer vein. Doughty and the Kings don't seem to have a lot of animosity for the Oilers. A Kings vs Oilers game is very much different than a Kings Flames game and they HATE the flames. A mutual hate. For a game of playoff import this wasn't a hateful affair.

Doughty pregame comments and apologizing to the Oilers for making them wait through his ceremony was funny as well as his good natured interactions with Smith, who he respects. I like Doughty. One of those players you feel you'd want to have a Beer with. Just like how he's able to joke around and give some gears on the ice. He likes when people give him some back too. Just makes the game more fun imo.

I honestly think the Oilers, had they gone to the Olympics would king of bond with a guy like that and learn a few things. He almost seems to like the Oilers a bit and our stars. I mean he's nicer to our players than most teams. I felt the game was mostly an honest affair. Some hitting, the Brown thing was stupid but he's just an idiot sometimes.

Absolutely love DD
 
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