Stay home,save yourself a headache

[Jussi]

So should we remove the restrictions of all underage hockey players?

If a 17 year old players signs a contract with a Liiga team it is not a legally binding contract? Of course it is. You are not making any sense.

WE were talking about 14 year olds, not 17 year olds.

 

[Peter25]

WE were talking about 14 year olds, not 17 year olds.

And what is the difference? Both are underage.

 

[obskyr]

If by MAKING you mean FORCING I don't agree. Nobody would be forcing these kids to sign anything. They can refuse to sign and either move abroad or quit hockey.

As it seems that Russia lacks the soft power and carrot to keep these kids in Russia as long as needed more stick needs to be used.

That makes the lack of carrots the problem, not the lack of sticks. You need to invest into the junior programs in Russia, to make them more attractive to the kids.

The idea of a 14 year old signing a long term contract doesn't make sense, cause there are more hockey schools in the country than professional clubs. The "major schools" already rob the "indies" on a constant basis, by enforcing a rule like that you'd probably harm the whole youth hockey system even more.

 

[QnebO]

Stick does't work in 2010 because internet. People know about better.

 

[Peter25]

That makes the lack of carrots the problem, not the lack of sticks. You need to invest into the junior programs in Russia, to make them more attractive to the kids.

Russia deserves some criticism for failing to keep these kids in Russia. But not because of Russia's hockey system is worse. It is not. Russian hockey development system does a better job with Russian kids than the Canadian one.

But Russia certainly deserves a lot of criticism for allowing the current situation to develop where it's best players are almost systematically ruined in the Canadian junior leagues. Russians should be able to convince these kids to stay home better than they do now.

The idea of a 14 year old signing a long term contract doesn't make sense, cause there are more hockey schools in the country than professional clubs. The "major schools" already rob the "indies" on a constant basis, by enforcing a rule like that you'd probably harm the whole youth hockey system even more.

The level of play and coaching is the best in these professional clubs. The best 14 year old kids would probably pick these teams ahead of amateur teams and sign contracts with them.

 

[obskyr]

Russia deserves some criticism for failing to keep these kids in Russia. But not because of Russia's hockey system is worse. It is not. Russian hockey development system does a better job with Russian kids than the Canadian one.

But Russia certainly deserves a lot of criticism for allowing the current situation to develop where it's best players are almost systematically ruined in the Canadian junior leagues. Russians should be able to convince these kids to stay home better than they do now.

That apparently doesn't seem to be the case for the players and their parents. Othewise they wouldn't left, right?
When, say, Nikita Zadorov claims that none of his old coaches fitted his particular style of play, he has all the right to go for an alternative.

The level of play and coaching is the best in these professional clubs. The best 14 year old kids would probably pick these teams ahead of amateur teams and sign contracts with them.

Some of the best junior players from Moscow of the late (like Kucherov, Sherbak or Goldobin) are graduates of the independent programs. They sure had to sign with the MHL teams by the age of 16, but making jumps between teams and coaches at earlier ages or simply depleteing local leagues for the sake of all the talent in one basket doesn't seem to be all that benefitial to me. See, you can't build up youth hockey of a large nation like Russia around a bunch of clubs, this isn't Finland we're talking about.

 

[Jussi]

That apparently doesn't seem to be the case for the players and their parents. Othewise they wouldn't left, right?
When, say, Nikita Zadorov claims that none of his old coaches fitted his particular style of play, he has all the right to go for an alternative.


Some of the best junior players from Moscow of the late (like Kucherov, Sherbak or Goldobin) are graduates of the independent programs. They sure had to sign with the MHL teams by the age of 16, but making jumps between teams and coaches at earlier ages or simply depleteing local leagues for the sake of all the talent in one basket doesn't seem to be all that benefitial to me. See, you can't build up youth hockey of a large nation like Russia around a bunch of clubs, this isn't Finland we're talking about.

We addressed in the Zadorov thread at the Prospects board the problems Russian junior system has with developing offensive defensemen, so for some people to say he would have developed better by staying in Russia is simply not true.

Not sure what you mean by Finnish youth hockey being centered around a bunch of clubs?

 

[obskyr]

We addressed in the Zadorov thread at the Prospects board the problems Russian junior system has with developing offensive defensemen, so for some people to say he would have developed better by staying in Russia is simply not true.

Not sure what you mean by Finnish youth hockey being centered around a bunch of clubs?

I didn't mean exactly that, I'm just trying to get my head around his point of view. I can't see how something like that would be reasonable, especially in Russia.

 

[vorky]

The fact he wont progress in chl was evident last year, his deffensive game slipped, as he was lead to believe he is an offensive force in the chl. I have atually thought chl is a good way to develop russian dmen, but seems like its not

I copied your post here, more appropriate thread.

If Zadorov as best D of his age group and Grigs as best F have problem to make NHL at 19-20 yrs, so what other russian guys coming to CHL? Would not be better to stay at home like Kuznetsov, Vasilevski, Yakimov to name a few not to have CHL-NHL agreement problems/too good for CHL not NHL ready?

I would like to copy following statement from other thread, applicable to Russians in CHL as well.

The "obsession" with the CHL as a feeder is because the NHL scouts it more than any other league in the world. If you want your kid to be seen by a scout, playing in the CHL will make sure that happens.

If your kid is NHL talent he will be scouted in Africa as well.

 

[Yakushev72]

We addressed in the Zadorov thread at the Prospects board the problems Russian junior system has with developing offensive defensemen, so for some people to say he would have developed better by staying in Russia is simply not true.

Not sure what you mean by Finnish youth hockey being centered around a bunch of clubs?

There is certainly plenty of blame to go around for the lack of defensemen produced in Russia, but where is the evidence that a good remedy for that is the CHL? The only guy who ever probably adjusted well to the move to the CHL was Yakupov, because he just refused to shut up and go to the back of the bus! Sadly, nearly ever other Russian sacrifices any tendency they may have had to take a leadership role because they are a fish out of water who doesn't speak the language and doesn't quite fit into the local culture. Over the last 7 years, there is a long history of potential talents who withered rather than grew in the CHL. From Avtsin to Tolchinsky, the results speak for themselves.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

There is certainly plenty of blame to go around for the lack of defensemen produced in Russia, but where is the evidence that a good remedy for that is the CHL? The only guy who ever probably adjusted well to the move to the CHL was Yakupov, because he just refused to shut up and go to the back of the bus! Sadly, nearly ever other Russian sacrifices any tendency they may have had to take a leadership role because they are a fish out of water who doesn't speak the language and doesn't quite fit into the local culture. Over the last 7 years, there is a long history of potential talents who withered rather than grew in the CHL. From Avtsin to Tolchinsky, the results speak for themselves.

While I agree 146% with what you said, let's wait a bit for Tolchinsky

 

[Jussi]

There is certainly plenty of blame to go around for the lack of defensemen produced in Russia, but where is the evidence that a good remedy for that is the CHL?

Proven track record, no matter the nationality(e.g. Määttä and Honka). Until Russian junior coaches make improvements, CHL is a better environment to develop offensive defensemen.

 

[cska78]

Proven track record, no matter the nationality(e.g. Määttä and Honka). Until Russian junior coaches make improvements, CHL is a better environment to develop offensive defensemen.

[MOD] Proven by whom? Who told u zadorov is an offensive dman?

 

[Jussi]

[MOD] Proven by whom? Who told u zadorov is an offensive dman?

The stats. Zadorov developed offensively more in CHL, according to himself even.

 

[cska78]

The stats. Zadorov developed offensively more in CHL, according to himself even.

Thats the problem, he was a great d-man in red army and after transferring to chl became what we call neither fish nor meat.

 

[Jussi]

Thats the problem, he was a great d-man in red army and after transferring to chl became what we call neither fish nor meat.

He went from 6 points in 41 games in MHL to 25 points in 63 and 30 in 36 in the CHL. I'd consider that as developed offensive skills.

 

[cska78]

He went from 6 points in 41 games in MHL to 25 points in 63 and 30 in 36 in the CHL. I'd consider that as developed offensive skills.

There's no argument in you logic, but he went from a SOLID d-man with potential of being the best stay-at-home guy Russia has developed in a longest time, to a player who is not a super offensive force, but lost his defensive sturdiness.
We can argue here all you want and neither one will change their opinion. But to me it's crystall clear, that CHL is taking cream of the crop of our players majority of whom stop or take significant steps back in their development. Players of lesser quality, who take their spots in Russia's development cycle end up making the KHL (some not all) and often beating the ones who leave in their development, while having less and at times way less potential. There's no argument here, these are facts.

 

[kp61c]

He went from 6 points in 41 games in MHL to 25 points in 63 and 30 in 36 in the CHL. I'd consider that as developed offensive skills.

the average player in the mhl was one year older than that in the chl. and the next year zad himself grew one year older. that's a two-year difference to take account of. i don't know, maybe that's something to do with him getting a bigger role in his new club and putting more points.

 

[cska78]

the average player in the mhl was one year older than that in the chl. and the next year zad himself grew one year older. that's a two-year difference to take account of. i don't know, maybe that's something to do with him getting a bigger role in his new club and putting more points.

That too : red army club is what mhl hockey should be all about - factory of greatness. Look how many players have gone to chl, improved other mhl/vhl/khl clubs, playing for nts of all ages.

 

[Jussi]

the average player in the mhl was one year older than that in the chl. and the next year zad himself grew one year older. that's a two-year difference to take account of. i don't know, maybe that's something to do with him getting a bigger role in his new club and putting more points.

Or, you know, developing? I think you people are jumping to conclusions way too soon based on him not necessarily being fully NHL ready right now, he's frakking 19 only. It's just bum luck and the mess that is the current CHL-NHL agreement that's giving him slight hick ups.

 

[cska78]

Bulis in his interview says kids should go to the chl. He thinks 16 is toonearly but 17-18 is right. I disagree, but posted it for the sake of fair discussion

 

[vorky]

Chernyshenko was interviewed today. He said intereting stats about russian kids moving to CHL. Stats are for russian kids moving to Canadian Hockey League (and NA jr leagues in general) since KHL was established (2008).

442 kids leaving to NA jr leagues
only 6 of them plays NHL this season
115 finished the career
160 playing lower NA jr leagues

http://rsport.ru/hockey/20150506/829415634.html

 

[Peter25]

Chernyshenko was interviewed today. He said intereting stats about russian kids moving to CHL. Stats are for russian kids moving to Canadian Hockey League (and NA jr leagues in general) since KHL was established (2008).

442 kids leaving to NA jr leagues
only 6 of them plays NHL this season
115 finished the career
160 playing lower NA jr leagues

http://rsport.ru/hockey/20150506/829415634.html

They (the kids) have not learned yet....

 

[cska78]

kids are leaving at the age of 13 even, this guy (another cska product - Maksimov) signed with Saginaw at 15 today and already two years into his NA minors career. But none of the stupid restructuring moves by MHL will help at all.

 

[ozo]

Chernyshenko was interviewed today. He said intereting stats about russian kids moving to CHL. Stats are for russian kids moving to Canadian Hockey League (and NA jr leagues in general) since KHL was established (2008).

442 kids leaving to NA jr leagues
only 6 of them plays NHL this season
115 finished the career
160 playing lower NA jr leagues

http://rsport.ru/hockey/20150506/829415634.html

Would love to see a breakdown of leagues where these 442 kids played. Fair share of these would never make MHL teams so crying that they end career or, even funnier, don't make NHL is insane.

Three second research on EP shows that 54 Russian kids this year play in either WSHL or GMHL independent leagues, and anyone with a lick of sense knows that these kids won't become professional hockey players. They are in NA just because their parents can sponsor their kids and that's it.

Obviously more kids jump to CHL than makes sense, but that number is just pulled out of the ass.